Theology Club: Open View theism and Romans 8:28

[Angel4Truth]

For the sake of the argument concerning predestination and the thread, how do open theists interpret this passage that states being foreknown and states predestined:

Romans 8:28 And we know that all things work together for good to those who love God, to those who are the called according to His purpose. 29 For whom He foreknew, He also predestined to be conformed to the image of His Son, that He might be the firstborn among many brethren. 30 Moreover whom He predestined, these He also called; whom He called, these He also justified; and whom He justified, these He also glorified.

How does open theism defined what is meant by foreknowledge and predestination?

 

[Nathon Detroit]

A4T It seemed like this was a new topic that needed it's own thread. :up:

 

[Angel4Truth]

A4T It seemed like this was a new topic that needed it's own thread. :up:

Thanks! I just thought that getting this defined will help in understanding the pov of the other threads opening.

 

[Sherman]

For the sake of the argument concerning predestination and the thread, how do open theists interpret this passage that states being foreknown and states predestined:

Romans 8:28 And we know that all things work together for good to those who love God, to those who are the called according to His purpose. 29 For whom He foreknew, He also predestined to be conformed to the image of His Son, that He might be the firstborn among many brethren. 30 Moreover whom He predestined, these He also called; whom He called, these He also justified; and whom He justified, these He also glorified.

How does open theism defined what is meant by foreknowledge and predestination?

When approaching scripture, we need to be careful of not getting locked into 'cafeteria Christianity'--picking out what we like and leaving off what we don't like. We need to weigh these Scriptures against the back drop of what the rest of the Bible says in order to understand them fully.

Do these scriptures require us to believe that God has completely laid out our future for us-- Or can we mess things up? 2 Peter 3:9 - The Lord is not slack concerning His promise, as some count slackness, but is longsuffering toward us, not willing that any should perish but that all should come to repentance.
But does everyone come to repentance? No. We have people on this board that reject God and disparage His name.

 

[Angel4Truth]

When approaching scripture, we need to be careful of not getting locked into 'cafeteria Christianity'--picking out what we like and leaving off what we don't like. We need to weigh these Scriptures against the back drop of what the rest of the Bible says in order to understand them fully.

Do these scriptures require us to believe that God has completely laid out our future for us-- Or can we mess things up? 2 Peter 3:9 - The Lord is not slack concerning His promise, as some count slackness, but is longsuffering toward us, not willing that any should perish but that all should come to repentance.
But does everyone come to repentance? No. We have people on this board that reject God and disparage His name.

Thanks, I understand that in the context of that verse, but it still leaves this question:

How do open theists interpret what is meant by the terms foreknowledge and predestination and predestined in scripture?

 

[Sherman]

Thanks, I understand that in the context of that verse, but it still leaves this question:

How do open theists interpret what is meant by the terms foreknowledge and predestination and predestined in scripture?

God understands human nature and the bent of the human heart. Sometimes we can mess up so much or please God that He will give us an extra push in the direction we have chosen.

God does also have a plan where He plans to redeem creation and people for ever from the power of death and the grave. Who accepts that redemption is a matter of free will. People are not robots.

I'll let Chickenman or one of the other posters who know their Greek better actually deal with the Greek translations of the words.

My view is that the nature of God is best understood by reading the scripture as a whole. The Open model cuts closer to an accurate picture than either Calvinism or Arminism.

 

[Nathon Detroit]

Romans 8:28 And we know that all things work together for good to those who love God, to those who are the called according to His purpose. 29 For whom He foreknew, He also predestined to be conformed to the image of His Son, that He might be the firstborn among many brethren. 30 Moreover whom He predestined, these He also called; whom He called, these He also justified; and whom He justified, these He also glorified.

How does open theism defined what is meant by foreknowledge and predestination?

Those He foreknew are the Body of Christ. Corporately not individually. It's really no different than God's elect (I.e. Israel). God's chosen people are Israel. Not individual people, but corporate Israel. And isn't it interesting that most of God's chosen people rejected Him and ended up in Hell? Why would that be if God chose individuals as opposed to corporate Israel?

Therefore in Romans those who He foreknew and predestined is a description of the corporate Body of Christ.

One final and tortured example would be as follows....

If United Airlines stated... "Anyone who shows up at the United Airlines ticket gate tomorrow between 1PM and 3PM will get a free airplane ticket to anywhere in the continental US."

United Airlines has in effect predestined that anyone who shows up in that time frame will get the free ticket. They don't know who the individuals will be but they know that at the end of the day there will be a group of people with free airline tickets.

Corporate vs. individual election.

 

[Lighthouse]

And Knight beat me to it.

 

[Sherman]

Excellent explanation. :thumb:

 

[Poly]

Those He foreknew are the Body of Christ. Corporately not individually. It's really no different than God's elect (I.e. Israel). God's chosen people are Israel. Not individual people, but corporate Israel. And isn't it interesting that most of God's chosen people rejected Him and ended up in Hell? Why would that be if God chose individuals as opposed to corporate Israel?

Therefore in Romans those who He foreknew and predestined is a description of the corporate Body of Christ.

One final and tortured example would be as follows....

If United Airlines stated... "Anyone who shows up at the United Airlines ticket gate tomorrow between 1PM and 3PM will get a free airplane ticket to anywhere in the continental US."

United Airlines has in effect predestined that anyone who shows up in that time frame will get the free ticket. They don't know who the individuals will be but they know that at the end of the day there will be a group of people with free airline tickets.

Corporate vs. individual election.

I was so hoping somebody besides me would explain this to her.

When it was explained to me it made perfect sense but Knight has such a better way of explaining it. :up:

 

[Angel4Truth]

Those He foreknew are the Body of Christ. Corporately not individually. It's really no different than God's elect (I.e. Israel). God's chosen people are Israel. Not individual people, but corporate Israel. And isn't it interesting that most of God's chosen people rejected Him and ended up in Hell? Why would that be if God chose individuals as opposed to corporate Israel?

Therefore in Romans those who He foreknew and predestined is a description of the corporate Body of Christ.

One final and tortured example would be as follows....

If United Airlines stated... "Anyone who shows up at the United Airlines ticket gate tomorrow between 1PM and 3PM will get a free airplane ticket to anywhere in the continental US."

United Airlines has in effect predestined that anyone who shows up in that time frame will get the free ticket. They don't know who the individuals will be but they know that at the end of the day there will be a group of people with free airline tickets.

Corporate vs. individual election.

Thank you, good answer

 

[chickenman]

I'll let Chickenman or one of the other posters who know their Greek better actually deal with the Greek translations of the words.

For the record, I studied Greek on my own for a short period of time. And only the equivalent of less than a 1st year student's studies. So...I'm not the one to ask about biblical Greek.

 

[chickenman]

For the sake of the argument concerning predestination and the thread, how do open theists interpret this passage that states being foreknown and states predestined:

Romans 8:28 And we know that all things work together for good to those who love God, to those who are the called according to His purpose. 29 For whom He foreknew, He also predestined to be conformed to the image of His Son, that He might be the firstborn among many brethren. 30 Moreover whom He predestined, these He also called; whom He called, these He also justified; and whom He justified, these He also glorified.

How does open theism defined what is meant by foreknowledge and predestination?

Something is very often overlooked in this passage. If the passage is NOT referring to corporate predestination (I believe it is), and if it is INSTEAD talking about individuals, then there's a huge problem. Here's why: Who did God foreknow? If one believes it's talking about individuals, then wouldn't that be a person who also believes that God foreknow every single person to have ever (and who will ever) live? The answer would have to be YES. And if so, then the passage would be teaching that God predestined, called, justified, and glorified every single person to have ever (and who will ever) lived, since He foreknew them all.

My take...

Randy

 

[Angel4Truth]

Something is very often overlooked in this passage. If the passage is NOT referring to corporate predestination (I believe it is), and if it is INSTEAD talking about individuals, then there's a huge problem. Here's why: Who did God foreknow? If one believes it's talking about individuals, then wouldn't that be a person who also believes that God foreknow every single person to have ever (and who will ever) live? The answer would have to be YES. And if so, then the passage would be teaching that God predestined, called, justified, and glorified every single person to have ever (and who will ever) lived, since He foreknew them all.

My take...

Randy

Yes, but it could also be said that, that particular passage deals with believers, not everyone, could it not?

 

[chickenman]

Yes, but it could also be said that, that particular passage deals with believers, not everyone, could it not?

Good morning, Angel.

My point, which I didn't express too well, is that many will point to this passage to support individual predestination and they'll criticize others who do not take it literally. But if those people are right in their general view, then God foreknew everyone who has and will ever live. So if they were TRULY taking the passage literally, they would have to conclude that God predestines, calls, justifies, and glorifies everyone who has and will ever live.

I didn't express my full thought too well before. And I didn't have you in mind when writing it, just so you know. I only wanted to point out an observation I've made.

To answer your question, if the Open View is wrong, then I suppose it could be talking about individual believers instead of the corporate body. If that's the case, there would need to be something to help us read it that way.

We naturally talk in corporate terms, though, which is why it reads easily that way to me. An example I've often used is a friend of mine named Rebekah. After she and her husband had their first child - Haley - and began homeschooling her, she told us: "I knew before Damon and I were married that Haley would be homeschooled.". If this were written in the Bible and spoken by God, then many people today would conclude:
1) God knew all about Haley long before she was ever conceived
2) God predestined this individual little girl to be homeschooled

But when Rebekah spoke those words, there was not a dilemma about what she meant. No one would ever hear that and assume Rebekah was a god with special foreknowledge of details of the future. No, the truth that no one would ever argue is this: a condition of their marriage was that any kids they would have would be homeschooled. Upon making that agreement, they both knew that any and all future kids of theirs would be homeschooled. Years later, it was a natural thing to say: "I knew long before she was born that Haley would be homeschooled."

We talk that way. It's normal and understood in real life. But for some reason, we (generally as Christians) don't allow Paul or others to write/speak that way.

I get too wordy. I should have just said, "Maybe.". :chuckle:

RA

 

[Angel4Truth]

Good morning, Angel.

My point, which I didn't express too well, is that many will point to this passage to support individual predestination and they'll criticize others who do not take it literally. But if those people are right in their general view, then God foreknew everyone who has and will ever live. So if they were TRULY taking the passage literally, they would have to conclude that God predestines, calls, justifies, and glorifies everyone who has and will ever live.

I didn't express my full thought too well before. And I didn't have you in mind when writing it, just so you know. I only wanted to point out an observation I've made.

To answer your question, if the Open View is wrong, then I suppose it could be talking about individual believers instead of the corporate body. If that's the case, there would need to be something to help us read it that way.

We naturally talk in corporate terms, though, which is why it reads easily that way to me. An example I've often used is a friend of mine named Rebekah. After she and her husband had their first child - Haley - and began homeschooling her, she told us: "I knew before Damon and I were married that Haley would be homeschooled.". If this were written in the Bible and spoken by God, then many people today would conclude:
1) God knew all about Haley long before she was ever conceived
2) God predestined this individual little girl to be homeschooled

But when Rebekah spoke those words, there was not a dilemma about what she meant. No one would ever hear that and assume Rebekah was a god with special foreknowledge of details of the future. No, the truth that no one would ever argue is this: a condition of their marriage was that any kids they would have would be homeschooled. Upon making that agreement, they both knew that any and all future kids of theirs would be homeschooled. Years later, it was a natural thing to say: "I knew long before she was born that Haley would be homeschooled."

We talk that way. It's normal and understood in real life. But for some reason, we (generally as Christians) don't allow Paul or others to write/speak that way.

I get too wordy. I should have just said, "Maybe.". :chuckle:

RA

Hi chickenman Thank you for your response. I think the passage talks about believers in general, and also as individuals.

What i mean is that its corporate as referring to believers (not all people) and letting us know that as individual believers, He equips us to His glory.

The passage is clear to me that its for believers (not all people) because of this part:

28 And we know that all things work together for good to those who love God, to those who are the called according to His purpose.

God in my view having foreknowledge of the choices we will make and that others around us will make, works things together for His purpose (glorification) and making believers of others.

Its difficult for me to imagine how God could do that without the advance knowledge of the will and intents of others, and i do not see an issue with God being all knowing/seeing and us also having free will.

In my mind, Him knowing doesn't affect my choosing because *I* do not know the future and can clearly see from life itself that we have a will.

I agree with you that Calvinism for example criticizes any other understanding of foreknowledge and predestination because in their view, God alone chooses who gets salvation, and i do not agree with that either - as i believe that God offers us all salvation - but all will not receive it - and that we have free will.

I believe predestination and foreknowledge only means that He knows what we will choose, whether or not we will receive His offer of salvation and as such works things to His glory for those He knows are His.

Both a corporate and individual thing, and also explains Ephesians 1:4, meaning like the plan of redemption known before the foundation of the world, requires His foreknowledge that man would fall, which means He can see ahead and plans ahead, knowing (not just making come to pass) the end from the beginning.

I hope that explains my view.

 

[chickenman]

I hope that explains my view.

:up: It does. Thanks!

 

[Guildenstern]

How do open theists interpret what is meant by the terms foreknowledge and predestination and predestined in scripture?

I oftentimes fall into thinking in concrete mathematical terms. God knew X would cause Y, and Y would cause Z, etc. At some point, we become less a product of our own doing, and more-so a product of fate & predetermined variables.

Can we, fallen creatures, really chose every possible course? Not really. For instance, and forgive my stabbing guesswork here, let's think of family - You and I could never become the same person unless we experienced the same environments.

I never had a real human father, yet I had three younger sisters. This emboldened me to mature more rapidly as a person and take an active interest in my younger siblings. Furthermore, it changed my outlook on women, of male authority, etc. I could not have possibly altered these conditions, yet these conditions served as variables which altered the end product: me.

In the end, God, being Infinite Wisdom, could see clearly since the fall of man who would become what & when, since the fallen nature of man is easily predictable. For this reason, I think it is unthinkable that God would destroy humans before they had an equal opportunity to share in a relationship with Him - in the same way Adam and Eve did. (I believe all humans will attain salvation, though perhaps not all will desire to remain in it)

 

[Pneuma]

Those He foreknew are the Body of Christ. Corporately not individually. It's really no different than God's elect (I.e. Israel). God's chosen people are Israel. Not individual people, but corporate Israel. And isn't it interesting that most of God's chosen people rejected Him and ended up in Hell? Why would that be if God chose individuals as opposed to corporate Israel?

Therefore in Romans those who He foreknew and predestined is a description of the corporate Body of Christ.

One final and tortured example would be as follows....

If United Airlines stated... "Anyone who shows up at the United Airlines ticket gate tomorrow between 1PM and 3PM will get a free airplane ticket to anywhere in the continental US."

United Airlines has in effect predestined that anyone who shows up in that time frame will get the free ticket. They don't know who the individuals will be but they know that at the end of the day there will be a group of people with free airline tickets.

Corporate vs. individual election.

Well said:thumb:

 

[2COR12:9]

Explained my interpretation of these verses here if interested.​