Theology Club: Numbers 14:11- 20--the power of petition before God.

[Sherman]

If the theology of Predestination as Calvinism presupposes is true, then prayer would be worthless. We would be compelled to rewrite much of the Bible or just plain ignore it. The Open View is gaining popularity because it deals with scriptures like the one below.

Numbers 14:11- 20
<sup class="versenum">11 </sup>Then the Lord said to Moses: “How long will these people reject Me? And how long will they not believe Me, with all the signs which I have performed among them? <sup class="versenum">12 </sup>I will strike them with the pestilence and disinherit them, and I will make of you a nation greater and mightier than they.”


The LORD's intention is to destroy Israel and make of Moses a nation because Israel has repeatedly rejected God and has been a disappointment.


<sup class="versenum">13 </sup>And Moses said to the Lord: “Then the Egyptians will hear it, for by Your might You brought these people up from among them, <sup class="versenum">14 </sup>and they will tell it to the inhabitants of this land. They have heard that You, Lord, are among these people; that You, Lord, are seen face to face and Your cloud stands above them, and You go before them in a pillar of cloud by day and in a pillar of fire by night. <sup class="versenum">15 </sup>Now if You kill these people as one man, then the nations which have heard of Your fame will speak, saying, <sup class="versenum">16 </sup>‘Because the Lord was not able to bring this people to the land which He swore to give them, therefore He killed them in the wilderness.’ <sup class="versenum">17 </sup>And now, I pray, let the power of my Lord be great, just as You have spoken, saying, <sup class="versenum">18 </sup>‘The Lord is longsuffering and abundant in mercy, forgiving iniquity and transgression; but He by no means clears the guilty, visiting the iniquity of the fathers on the children to the third and fourth generation.’ <sup class="versenum">19 </sup>Pardon the iniquity of this people, I pray, according to the greatness of Your mercy, just as You have forgiven this people, from Egypt even until now.”


Moses pleads mercy for Israel before God, asking God to pardon Israel for her iniquity.

<sup class="versenum">20 </sup>Then the Lord said: “I have pardoned, according to your word;



God relents. It by no means makes God vacillating or weak.


The Bible is full of scriptures like these where God responds to petition.

 

[Lighthouse]

To paraphrase a character in John le Carre's A Murder of Quality, "What's the point of praying to God if He already knows the future?"

 

[Tambora]

If the theology of Predestination as Calvinism presupposes is true

Then the ending of each good night tuck in would be .....

Of course you may be one that God created to be damned for eternity, and there isn't a darn thing you can do about it.
Sweet dreams little Susie!!! (((kiss kiss)))

 

[Poly]

Then the ending of each good night tuck in would be .....

Of course you may be one that God created to be damned for eternity, and there isn't a darn thing you can do about it.
Sweet dreams little Susie!!! (((kiss kiss)))

May as well be said like that. This was my hell growing up.

Good point.

 

[Sherman]

TOL has a member who is now an atheist because he was raised a Calvinist. The whole idea of God picking and choosing who will get saved and who will go to hell cuts awfully close to blasphemy. It is also a very cruel notion.

 

[Angel4Truth]

To paraphrase a character in John le Carre's A Murder of Quality, "What's the point of praying to God if He already knows the future?"

That we see Him in action, because we do not know the future. Prayer is more for us than for God. One of the ways we know we can trust God is because of answered prayer. Him knowing what we will ask beforehand doesn't in any way affect our reaching out to Him and seeing Him respond to our concerns.

Isaiah 65:24 “It shall come to pass
That before they call, I will answer;
And while they are still speaking, I will hear.

 

[Lighthouse]

TOL has a member who is now an atheist because he was raised a Calvinist. The whole idea of God picking and choosing who will get saved and who will go to hell cuts awfully close to blasphemy. It is also a very cruel notion.

If you're talking about who I think he was also a preterist.

That we see Him in action, because we do not know the future. Prayer is more for us than for God. One of the ways we know we can trust God is because of answered prayer. Him knowing what we will ask beforehand doesn't in any way affect our reaching out to Him and seeing Him respond to our concerns.

Isaiah 65:24 “It shall come to pass
That before they call, I will answer;
And while they are still speaking, I will hear.

Context?

“It shall come to pass
That before they call, I will answer;
And while they are still speaking, I will hear.
The wolf and the lamb shall feed together,
The lion shall eat straw like the ox,
And dust shall be the serpent’s food.
They shall not hurt nor destroy in all My holy mountain,”
Says the Lord.
-Isaiah 65:24-25

It seems to me God is speaking of eternity, after Judgment Day.

But if you think you know the answer, please tell me what the point of praying for the salvation of someone if God knows they will die never having accepted Jesus?

 

[chickenman]

Good morning all!

Question for Angel primarily, but anyone...please participate.

Do you see modern day prayer as having any parallels to the times when people, Moses for instance, spoke directly and audibly with God? Would you equate the two?

Thanks,
RA

 

[Angel4Truth]

If you're talking about who I think he was also a preterist.


Context?

“It shall come to pass
That before they call, I will answer;
And while they are still speaking, I will hear.
The wolf and the lamb shall feed together,
The lion shall eat straw like the ox,
And dust shall be the serpent’s food.
They shall not hurt nor destroy in all My holy mountain,”
Says the Lord.
-Isaiah 65:24-25

It seems to me God is speaking of eternity, after Judgment Day.

But if you think you know the answer, please tell me what the point of praying for the salvation of someone if God knows they will die never having accepted Jesus?

Because WE don't know who is who. Again, prayer is for us.

As to what the passage refers to, i believe the millennial reign of Christ time period.

The time period though is irrelevant to the point, it says that before they call He will answer, meaning He knows what they will ask, which requires foreknowledge.

 

[Lighthouse]

Because WE don't know who is who. Again, prayer is for us.

How is that not completely and utterly pointless?

As to what the passage refers to, i believe the millennial reign of Christ time period.

That's not when wolves and lambs will eat together and lions will eat straw.

The time period though is irrelevant to the point, it says that before they call He will answer, meaning He knows what they will ask, which requires foreknowledge.

No it isn't; the time period is very relevant, because in eternity He will know what we need and desire when we need and desire it, thus it will be present knowledge, not foreknowledge. He will know when we know, and He will answer our needs before we even ask.

 

[Angel4Truth]

Good morning all!

Question for Angel primarily, but anyone...please participate.

Do you see modern day prayer as having any parallels to the times when people, Moses for instance, spoke directly and audibly with God? Would you equate the two?

Thanks,
RA

Everyone who believed in God then did not do such, i believe it was just the prophets of God who did such (received audible communication with God).

 

[Angel4Truth]

How is that not completely and utterly pointless?

How is it pointless to love our neighbor enough to pray for them? Loving has no benefit for us?

No it isn't; the time period is very relevant, because in eternity He will know what we need and desire when we need and desire it, thus it will be present knowledge, not foreknowledge. He will know when we know, and He will answer our needs before we even ask.

The verse says before they ask, not as they ask.

 

[chickenman]

Everyone who believed in God then did not do such, i believe it was just the prophets of God who did such (received audible communication with God).

I agree. That direct communication was given to few. Others would have a human mediator.

Considering just those that did, like Moses, do you see any parallels in its purpose? In other words, should we view prayer today as having the same purpose as the direct and audible communication Moses had with God?

And by the way, while I do have a follow-up question, I don't necessarily think I know the answer to my own question. I'm just working through it.

Thanks,
RA

 

[Angel4Truth]

I agree. That direct communication was given to few. Others would have a human mediator.

Considering just those that did, like Moses, do you see any parallels in its purpose? In other words, should we view prayer today as having the same purpose as the direct and audible communication Moses had with God?

And by the way, while I do have a follow-up question, I don't necessarily think I know the answer to my own question. I'm just working through it.

Thanks,
RA

Some of it, but not all of it, we should also seek God for direction, prayer as praise and worship and thankfulness, bearing on anothers burdens, but the not all of it would be prophecy or specifics that only dealt with the particular situation of the hebrew people and its theocracy.

 

[Lighthouse]

How is it pointless to love our neighbor enough to pray for them? Loving has no benefit for us?

:bang:

I didn't say loving them was pointless and had no benefit; I asked how praying for them if it makes no difference [has no benefit] was not pointless...

The verse says before they ask, not as they ask.

And? My point still stands.

 

[Angel4Truth]

:bang:

I didn't say loving them was pointless and had no benefit; I asked how praying for them if it makes no difference [has no benefit] was not pointless...

Even if it has no benefit for them, it has a benefit for us. Thats my point.

How is there less benefit for us or them anyway, if God already knows the future?

We still don't know it. We still do not know how He works in their life or what will ultimately be their fate.

Either way the benefit and purpose of prayer is the same.

 

[Lighthouse]

Even if it has no benefit for them, it has a benefit for us. Thats my point.

But if it has no benefit for them how does it have a benefit for us? We are doing them no good, whatsoever, if prayer will have no effect. And thus we are doing no good at all, period. How is that good for us?

The Bible tells us that the prayers of a righteous man availeth much. How can that be if the future is set?

The effective, fervent prayer of a righteous man avails much.

-James 5:16
​

How is there less benefit for us or them anyway, if God already knows the future?

If God knows the future then the future is set and nothing we do can change any of that, making prayer of no effect. The Bible tells us otherwise.

We still don't know it. We still do not know how He works in their life or what will ultimately be their fate.

That doesn't matter. God is not futile, nor does He wish us to be. He would not command us to do something as futile as pray for change when change is impossible.

Either way the benefit and purpose of prayer is the same.

No, it isn't.

The main purpose of supplication prayer is for a specific outcome. If it is impossible to effect the outcome through such then it is futile to even try, and there are no benefits and ultimately no purpose.

There is no purpose in me trying to push over the Empire State Building since I can't actually push it over, correct? But what if I thought I could? Would it then not be futile? Of course not! It would be just as futile, whether I was completely sane or utterly delusional.

 

[Angel4Truth]

But if it has no benefit for them how does it have a benefit for us? We are doing them no good, whatsoever, if prayer will have no effect. And thus we are doing no good at all, period. How is that good for us?

Because we are doing what God asks us to do, praying for others. We are showing we trust His judgment instead of our own, we are in felllowship/communication with Him.

Do you believe that every non believer we pray for to get saved, will just because we ask? Do they no longer have free will?

The way you are coming across, unless we know that person will be saved, there is no need to pray to them - in my view, since we do not know who is who, we should be praying anyway.

The Bible tells us that the prayers of a righteous man availeth much. How can that be if the future is set?

The effective, fervent prayer of a righteous man avails much.

-James 5:16
​

Because some things are conditional, like Nineveh repenting. Just because i believe God can see the future, its still based on our choices.

If God knows the future then the future is set and nothing we do can change any of that, making prayer of no effect. The Bible tells us otherwise.

Then you need to explain to me HOW we cannot choose anything if He already knows what our choice will be. I believe He knows the future - because He knows each scenerio, if we do x, then this happens, based on conditional promises of God.

Some promises are conditional, some unconditional.

That doesn't matter. God is not futile, nor does He wish us to be. He would not command us to do something as futile as pray for change when change is impossible.

Where are we commanded to pray at all?

No, it isn't.

The main purpose of supplication prayer is for a specific outcome. If it is impossible to effect the outcome through such then it is futile to even try, and there are no benefits and ultimately no purpose.

There is no purpose in me trying to push over the Empire State Building since I can't actually push it over, correct? But what if I thought I could? Would it then not be futile? Of course not! It would be just as futile, whether I was completely sane or utterly delusional.

I disagree, sorry. The main purpose is communication with God. We have free will, we can pray for someone a million times whether or not He sees or doesnt see the future and if the will of the person we are praying for is to remain seperated from God, they will remain seperated from God.

If you do not believe that, show me biblical evidence that all supplication prayers are answered in the affirmative.

 

[chickenman]

Some of it, but not all of it, we should also seek God for direction, prayer as praise and worship and thankfulness, bearing on anothers burdens, but the not all of it would be prophecy or specifics that only dealt with the particular situation of the hebrew people and its theocracy.

I agree. But I was going in a little different direction. My bad for beating around the bush. Here's where I was going: God told Moses that He was going to consume Israel and, instead, make of Moses a great nation. I.e., because of Israel's rebellion at Sinai, God was ready to wipe them out and start over with Moses. Moses pleaded with God to not do that, and so the Lord repented of that which He said He was going to do.

Exodus 32
9. And the LORD said unto Moses, I have seen this people, and, behold, it is a stiffnecked people:
10. Now therefore let me alone, that my wrath may wax hot against them, and that I may consume them: and I will make of thee a great nation.
11. And Moses besought the LORD his God, and said, LORD, why doth thy wrath wax hot against thy people, which thou hast brought forth out of the land of Egypt with great power, and with a mighty hand?
12. Wherefore should the Egyptians speak, and say, For mischief did he bring them out, to slay them in the mountains, and to consume them from the face of the earth? Turn from thy fierce wrath, and repent of this evil against thy people.
13. Remember Abraham, Isaac, and Israel, thy servants, to whom thou swarest by thine own self, and saidst unto them, I will multiply your seed as the stars of heaven, and all this land that I have spoken of will I give unto your seed, and they shall inherit it for ever.
14. And the LORD repented of the evil which he thought to do unto his people.​

Can we plead with God today, through prayer, to do or not do something that He had planned on (how we would know is another story, I guess)? It seems to me that the Moses incident (which isn't unique) in Ex. 32 lends a lot of credence to the Open View.

What are your thoughts?

Thanks, Angel!

Randy

 

[Angel4Truth]

I agree. But I was going in a little different direction. My bad for beating around the bush. Here's where I was going: God told Moses that He was going to consume Israel and, instead, make of Moses a great nation. I.e., because of Israel's rebellion at Sinai, God was ready to wipe them out and start over with Moses. Moses pleaded with God to not do that, and so the Lord repented of that which He said He was going to do.

Exodus 32
9. And the LORD said unto Moses, I have seen this people, and, behold, it is a stiffnecked people:
10. Now therefore let me alone, that my wrath may wax hot against them, and that I may consume them: and I will make of thee a great nation.
11. And Moses besought the LORD his God, and said, LORD, why doth thy wrath wax hot against thy people, which thou hast brought forth out of the land of Egypt with great power, and with a mighty hand?
12. Wherefore should the Egyptians speak, and say, For mischief did he bring them out, to slay them in the mountains, and to consume them from the face of the earth? Turn from thy fierce wrath, and repent of this evil against thy people.
13. Remember Abraham, Isaac, and Israel, thy servants, to whom thou swarest by thine own self, and saidst unto them, I will multiply your seed as the stars of heaven, and all this land that I have spoken of will I give unto your seed, and they shall inherit it for ever.
14. And the LORD repented of the evil which he thought to do unto his people.​

Can we plead with God today, through prayer, to do or not do something that He had planned on (how we would know is another story, I guess)? It seems to me that the Moses incident (which isn't unique) in Ex. 32 lends a lot of credence to the Open View.

What are your thoughts?

Thanks, Angel!

Randy

Yes where something is a conditional promise, no where its not. I believe the term God relented in scripture is a picture for our finite minds to understand, in other words word picture terminology, not literally that Gods course was x, but that he changed an unconditional thing. I believe God already knew what was going to happen just like with Jonah, Jonah already knew most likely ninevah would repent and God would "relent" because Jonah understood conditional promises of God as well as those that are unconditional.

This is why Jonah did NOT want to prophecy to Nineveh, because he wanted them destroyed and knew God would be merciful to them if they repented.