Theology Club: The Hebrew Epistles and Where Do They Fit?

Jerry Shugart

Well-known member
There are MANY Mid-Acts dispensationalists who do not confess their sins (1 Jn.1:9) and therefore they remain defiled. What does that say about their service for the LORD?:

"I beseech you therefore, brethren, by the mercies of God, that ye present your bodies a living sacrifice, holy, acceptable unto God, which is your reasonable service"
(Ro.12:1).​

When a Christian judges himself in regard to his sins then he is in fact confessing his sin. And are we not to judge ourselves?:

"For if we would judge ourselves, we should not be judged. But when we are judged, we are chastened of the Lord, that we should not be condemned with the world"
(1 Cor.11:31-32).​

If Paul is not speaking about a Christian judging himself in regard to his sins then what are to to judge ourselves about?
 

heir

TOL Subscriber
There are MANY Mid-Acts dispensationalists who do not confess their sins (1 Jn.1:9) and therefore they remain defiled. What does that say about their service for the LORD?:

"I beseech you therefore, brethren, by the mercies of God, that ye present your bodies a living sacrifice, holy, acceptable unto God, which is your reasonable service"
(Ro.12:1).​

When a Christian judges himself in regard to his sins then he is in fact confessing his sin. And are we not to judge ourselves?:

"For if we would judge ourselves, we should not be judged. But when we are judged, we are chastened of the Lord, that we should not be condemned with the world"
(1 Cor.11:31-32).​

If Paul is not speaking about a Christian judging himself in regard to his sins then what are to to judge ourselves about?
:doh: I have no sins to confess. They were put off by the circumcision of Christ. I am forgiven all trespasses.

Colossians 2:11 In whom also ye are circumcised with the circumcision made without hands, in putting off the body of the sins of the flesh by the circumcision of Christ:

Colossians 2:12 Buried with him in baptism, wherein also ye are risen with him through the faith of the operation of God, who hath raised him from the dead.

Colossians 2:13 And you, being dead in your sins and the uncircumcision of your flesh, hath he quickened together with him, having forgiven you all trespasses;

Your attempt to misappropriate scripture to us that has nothing to do with us "confessing sins" (typical hijacked version of 1 John 1:9) is a denial that they were already dealt with 2000 years ago when Christ died for them all (1 Corinthians 15:1-4 KJV).

Just how many of your sins were not forgiven 2000 years ago and are in need of forgiveness today?
 

Jerry Shugart

Well-known member
:doh: I have no sins to confess. They were put off by the circumcision of Christ. I am forgiven all trespasses.

In regard to 1 Corinthians 11:31 what is Paul speaking about when he said, "For if we would judge ourselves, we should not be judged."

Judged about what? From the context I would say that their behavior was sinful. What do you think?

In the same epistle Paul addressed those in the church at Corinth AND "all that in every place call upon the name of Jesus Christ our Lord" (1 Cor.1:2).

So Paul's words in that epistle are addressed to all the believers living during the time when he wrote that epistle. That would include all the Gentile believers and all the Jewish believers. And here is what he told them:

"For as the body is one, and hath many members, and all the members of that one body, being many, are one body: so also is Christ. For by one Spirit are we all baptized into one body, whether we be Jews or Gentiles, whether we be bond or free; and have been all made to drink into one Spirit" (1 Cor.12:13).​

Paul says that "all" of those whom he addressed were baptized into the Body of Christ. All the Jewish believers and all the Gentile believers.

Therefore, the Apostle John was a member of the Body and his epistles were addressed to those in the Body. And today all believers are members of the Body and therefore what is found in John's epistle belongs to them.
 

glorydaz

Well-known member
There are MANY Mid-Acts dispensationalists who do not confess their sins (1 Jn.1:9) and therefore they remain defiled. What does that say about their service for the LORD?:

"I beseech you therefore, brethren, by the mercies of God, that ye present your bodies a living sacrifice, holy, acceptable unto God, which is your reasonable service"
(Ro.12:1).​

When a Christian judges himself in regard to his sins then he is in fact confessing his sin. And are we not to judge ourselves?:

"For if we would judge ourselves, we should not be judged. But when we are judged, we are chastened of the Lord, that we should not be condemned with the world"
(1 Cor.11:31-32).​

If Paul is not speaking about a Christian judging himself in regard to his sins then what are to to judge ourselves about?

1 Cor. 11 can't be talking about sins, because the wages of sin is death.

When we judge ourselves, we are recognizing something the Lord may be wanting us to do, or some unprofitable thing we may be engaging in. When we thus judge ourselves, chastening is not required.

It's when we don't acknowledge or notice something we are doing that is not expedient, then the Lord may have to judge (by chastening) us to get our attention.

It's the same as we do with our kids. If they figure it out for themselves, there is no need to chasten them.
 

glorydaz

Well-known member
So Paul's words in that epistle are addressed to all the believers living during the time when he wrote that epistle. That would include all the Gentile believers and all the Jewish believers. And here is what he told them:

"For as the body is one, and hath many members, and all the members of that one body, being many, are one body: so also is Christ. For by one Spirit are we all baptized into one body, whether we be Jews or Gentiles, whether we be bond or free; and have been all made to drink into one Spirit" (1 Cor.12:13).​

Paul says that "all" of those whom he addressed were baptized into the Body of Christ. All the Jewish believers and all the Gentile believers.

Therefore, the Apostle John was a member of the Body and his epistles were addressed to those in the Body. And today all believers are members of the Body and therefore what is found in John's epistle belongs to them.

There was a time when they were not all in the body. John talks about obedience to the commandments, for instance. Paul tells us Jesus Christ is the end of the law for those who believe.

When was this talking about?

Acts 15:11 But we believe that through the grace of the Lord Jesus Christ we shall be saved, even as they.

And isn't there somewhere in Acts where it says John was to go to the Jews? It makes sense that his message would be taylored for the Jews, especially before Paul's Gospel was preached to them.
 

Jerry Shugart

Well-known member
Is it the Lord that judges and chastises the sinner, or the sinner that judges and chastises himself?

If a Christian doesn't judge himself then the LORD will chasten him:

"For if we would judge ourselves, we should not be judged. But when we are judged, we are chastened of the Lord, that we should not be condemned with the world"
(1 Cor.11:31-32).​
 

Jerry Shugart

Well-known member
1 Cor. 11 can't be talking about sins, because the wages of sin is death.

The words of Paul in those verses are addressed to those who believed in the Lord Jesus and here is what He said about them:

"I am the resurrection, and the life: he that believeth in me, though he were dead, yet shall he live: And whosoever liveth and believeth in me shall never die"
(Jn.11:25-26).​

Obviously He is not speaking of a physical death but instead a spiritual death.

When we judge ourselves, we are recognizing something the Lord may be wanting us to do, or some unprofitable thing we may be engaging in.

No, the words of Paul are referring to "guilt" and of course guilt is in regard to a person's sins:

"Wherefore whosoever shall eat this bread, and drink this cup of the Lord, unworthily, shall be guilty of the body and blood of the Lord"
(1 Cor.11:27).​

If it were a matter of doing something which is merely unprofitable there would be no guilt involved.
 

Jerry Shugart

Well-known member
There was a time when they were not all in the body.

At the time when Paul wrote his first epistle to the church at Corinth all believers (both Jews and Gentiles) were in the Body. Therefore, those who received John's epistles were in the Body and they were expecting to be raptured just like every other members of the Body of Christ:

"Beloved, now are we the sons of God, and it doth not yet appear what we shall be: but we know that, when he shall appear, we shall be like him; for we shall see him as he is" (1 Jn.3:2).​

If John was expecting to put on an earthly body when He returns then he would have known exactly what he would be like because He saw the Lord Jesus appear in an earthly, resurrected body. This can only be speaking of the rapture when all those in the Body will put on a glorious body just like the body of the Lord Jesus (Phil.3:20-21).
 

heir

TOL Subscriber
In regard to 1 Corinthians 11:31 what is Paul speaking about when he said, "For if we would judge ourselves, we should not be judged."
Don't even attempt to dodge the fact that you put the Body of Christ under 1 John 1:9 KJV.
Your typical hijacked version of 1 John 1:9 KJV is a denial that the sin/sins issue was settled 2000 years ago when Christ died for them all (1 Corinthians 15:1-4 KJV). How dare you try and put members of the Body of Christ under 1 John 1:9 KJV whichhas NOTHING to do with us!

Please answer how many of your sins were not forgiven 2000 years ago and are in need of forgiveness today and how are they forgiven today?


As to 1 Corinthians 11, Paul's recollection of the night in which the Lord was betrayed in his rebuke to the Corinthians for eating and drinking in front of a sold out and hungry church of God is NOT about confessing sins. What planet are you on?
 
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heir

TOL Subscriber
Paul says that "all" of those whom he addressed were baptized into the Body of Christ. All the Jewish believers and all the Gentile believers.

Therefore, the Apostle John was a member of the Body and his epistles were addressed to those in the Body. And today all believers are members of the Body and therefore what is found in John's epistle belongs to them.
Leaping lizards! Talk about jumping to conclusions with nothing to substantiate your claim. John has NOTHING to do with the Body of Christ (Matthew 10:5-6 KJV, Matthew 19:28 KJV) much less Gentiles (3 John 1:7 KJV). God's word doesn't belong in a blender.
 
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Jerry Shugart

Well-known member
Leaping lizards! Talk about jumping to con
clusions with nothing to substantiate your claim. John has NOTHING to do with the Body of Christ (Matthew 10:5-6 KJV, Matthew 19:28 KJV) much less Gentiles (3 John 1:7 KJV). God's word doesn't belong in a blender.

To whom did Paul address the following words?:

"For as the body is one, and hath many members, and all the members of that one body, being many, are one body: so also is Christ. For by one Spirit are we all baptized into one body, whether we be Jews or Gentiles, whether we be bond or free; and have been all made to drink into one Spirit"
(1 Cor.12:13).​

Of course those words were addressed not only to those in the church at Corinth but also " all that in every place call upon the name of Jesus Christ our Lord" (1 Cor.1:2).

So Paul told every believer, both Jew and Gentile, that they are all baptized into one body.

But you say not "all" but only "some."

As to 1 Corinthians 11, Paul's recollection of the night in which the Lord was betrayed in his rebuke to the Corinthians for eating and drinking in front of a sold out and hungry church of God is NOT about confessing sins. What planet are you on?

So what they were doing was not a sin, even though Paul said that they were "guilty" (1 Cor.11:27)? Of course some of them were sinning and if they didn't judge themselves about those sins and cease from their sinful behavior then they would be chastened of the LORD:

"For if we would judge ourselves, we should not be judged. But when we are judged, we are chastened of the Lord, that we should not be condemned with the world"
(1 Cor.11:31).​

That is the same chastening we read in the book of Hebrews:

"Ye have not yet resisted unto blood, striving against sin. And ye have forgotten the exhortation which speaketh unto you as unto children, My son, despise not thou the chastening of the Lord, nor faint when thou art rebuked of him: For whom the Lord loveth he chasteneth, and scourgeth every son whom he receiveth. If ye endure chastening, God dealeth with you as with sons; for what son is he whom the father chasteneth not?"
(Heb.12:4-7).​

Don't even attempt to dodge the fact that you put the Body of Christ under 1 John 1:9 KJV.
Your typical hijacked version of 1 John 1:9 KJV is a denial that the sin/sins issue was settled 2000 years ago when Christ died for them all (1 Corinthians 15:1-4 KJV). How dare you try and put members of the Body of Christ under 1 John 1:9 KJV whichhas NOTHING to do with us!

The Lord Jesus also died for those who received the Hebrew epistles and Peter tells them this:

"Forasmuch as ye know that ye were not redeemed with corruptible things, as silver and gold, from your vain conversation received by tradition from your fathers; But with the precious blood of Christ, as of a lamb without blemish and without spot" (1 Pet.1:18-19).​

This too:

"Who his own self bare our sins in his own body on the tree, that we, being dead to sins, should live unto righteousness: by whose stripes ye were healed. For ye were as sheep going astray; but are now returned unto the Shepherd and Bishop of your souls"
(1 Pet.2:24-25).​

J. C. O'Hair had the following to say about 1 Peter 3:18:

"Peter and James and ten other apostles are going to sit on twelve thrones and judge the twelve tribes of Israel. (Matthew 19:27 and 28). But I do not agree with Christians who say that the twelve apostles were not members of the Body of Christ...I make no such foolish statement...that these Epistles of Peter and James are not for this age...I use 1 Peter 3:18 in preaching the gospel of grace as frequently as I use any other verse" [emphais mine] (O'Hair, The Accuser of the Brethren and the Brethren Concerning Bullingerism).​
 
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Jerry Shugart

Well-known member
Please answer how many of your sins were not forgiven 2000 years ago and are in need of forgiveness today and how are they forgiven today?

Let us look at this verse:

"If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness"
(1 Jn.1:9).​

The primary meaning of the Greek word translated "forgive" is "to send away" (Thayer's Greek-English Lexicon).

Any sin which a Christian commits defiles him and makes him unholy. And in order to have that sin sent away and be cleansed from the defilement which it caused a Christ confesses that sin or acknowledges it as a sin.

Or perhaps you do not think that your sins do not defile you even with the following words of the Lord Jesus in view:

"But those things which proceed out of the mouth come forth from the heart; and they defile the man. For out of the heart proceed evil thoughts, murders, adulteries, fornications, thefts, false witness, blasphemies: These are the things which defile a man: but to eat with unwashen hands defileth not a man"
(Mt.15:18-20).​

The Apostle John tells us how to go from a state of being defiled and unholy into a state of being cleansed and therefore holy. Do you not think that the sins of Christian defiles them?
 
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heir

TOL Subscriber
To whom did Paul address the following words?:

"For as the body is one, and hath many members, and all the members of that one body, being many, are one body: so also is Christ. For by one Spirit are we all baptized into one body, whether we be Jews or Gentiles, whether we be bond or free; and have been all made to drink into one Spirit"(1 Cor.12:13).
He is testifying a body truth to those who trusted the Lord believing the gospel of Christ, but if you think for one minute that all at Corinth were in the body is ignorance on your part. It doesn't take much to show a mixed bag of people there not in the body. Certainly the 12 were not included in the body truth of 1 Corinthians 12:13 KJV as you can prove nowhere in their writings of baptism by one Spirit. The Lord was their baptizer and they also baptized a baptism of repentance for the remission of sins. Surely, you are not calling those the same or applying those to us as well. You'd be a fool to suggest such a thing.

So what they were doing was not a sin, even though Paul said that they were "guilty" (1 Cor.11:27)? Of course some of them were sinning and if they didn't judge themselves about those sins and cease from their sinful behavior then they would be chastened of the LORD:

"For if we would judge ourselves, we should not be judged. But when we are judged, we are chastened of the Lord, that we should not be condemned with the world"
(1 Cor.11:31).​
Put your script down and think! This is all total recall of the night in which the Lord was betrayed. It had nothing to do with the Corinthians being judged or chastened. No one in the Body of Christ can be condemned with the world! Romans 8:1 KJV
 

heir

TOL Subscriber
Let us look at this verse:
I know what 1 John 1:9 KJV says and what it means for those people. I also know that MY APOSTLE preaches (that we are forgiven all trespasses). For you to insist that they are both to us is a denial of the finished work of the cross in our stead. It is an other gospel that you are preaching! You can't show from our apostle, speaking to Gentiles, given the dispensation of the grace of God to usward; how we are in need of forgiveness as forgiveness of sins took place 2000 years before we were born (2 Corinthians 5:19 KJV).

Please answer how many of your sins were not forgiven 2000 years ago and are in need of forgiveness today and how are they forgiven today?
crickets
 
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Jerry Shugart

Well-known member
He is testifying a body truth to those who trusted the Lord believing the gospel of
Christ, but if you think for one minute that all at Corinth were in the body is ignorance on your part.

No, the truth he was testifying was to those in the church at Corinth AND to "all that in every place call upon the name of Jesus Christ our Lord" (1 Cor.1:2).

Of course ALL of the Jewish believers living at the time wrote this epistle called on the name of the Lord Jesus. So when Paul says that we are ALL baptized into one body then that must include ALL of the Jewish believers:

"For as the body is one, and hath many members, and all the members of that one body, being many, are one body: so also is Christ. For by one Spirit are we all baptized into one body, whether we be Jews or Gentiles, whether we be bond or free; and have been all made to drink into one Spirit"
(1 Cor.12:13).​


Did you not read what I wrote on post #13?

Put your script down and think! This is all total recall of the night in which the Lord was betrayed. It had nothing to do with the Corinthians being judged or chastened. No one in the Body of Christ can be condemned with the world! Romans 8:1 KJV

So the following has nothing to do with anyone being judged?:

"For he that eateth and drinketh unworthily, eateth and drinketh damnation to himself, not discerning the Lord's body. For this cause many are weak and sickly among you, and many sleep"
(1 Cor.11:29-30).​
 

Jerry Shugart

Well-known member
None of my sins were not forgiven.
Hallelujah!

Let us look at this verse:

"If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness"
(1 Jn.1:9).​

The primary meaning of the Greek word translated "forgive" is "to send away" (Thayer's Greek-English Lexicon).

Any sin which a Christian commits defiles him and makes him unholy. And in order to have that sin sent away and be cleansed from the defilement which it caused a Christ confesses that sin or acknowledges it as a sin.

Or perhaps you do not think that your sins do not defile you even with the following words of the Lord Jesus in view:

"But those things which proceed out of the mouth come forth from the heart; and they defile the man. For out of the heart proceed evil thoughts, murders, adulteries, fornications, thefts, false witness, blasphemies: These are the things which defile a man: but to eat with unwashen hands defileth not a man"
(Mt.15:18-20).​

The Apostle John tells us how to go from a state of being defiled and unholy into a state of being cleansed and therefore holy. Do you not think that the sins of a Christian defiles him?
 

glorydaz

Well-known member
Let us look at this verse:

"If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness"
(1 Jn.1:9).​

The primary meaning of the Greek word translated "forgive" is "to send away" (Thayer's Greek-English Lexicon).

Any sin which a Christian commits defiles him and makes him unholy. And in order to have that sin sent away and be cleansed from the defilement which it caused a Christ confesses that sin or acknowledges it as a sin.

Or perhaps you do not think that your sins do not defile you even with the following words of the Lord Jesus in view:

"But those things which proceed out of the mouth come forth from the heart; and they defile the man. For out of the heart proceed evil thoughts, murders, adulteries, fornications, thefts, false witness, blasphemies: These are the things which defile a man: but to eat with unwashen hands defileth not a man"
(Mt.15:18-20).​

The Apostle John tells us how to go from a state of being defiled and unholy into a state of being cleansed and therefore holy. Do you not think that the sins of a Christian defiles him?

Are you suggesting that the Holy Spirit is not able to accomplish what we are told here....by His very presence in us when we believe?

1 Corinthians 6:10-12
10 Nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners, shall inherit the kingdom of God.
11 And such were some of you: but ye are washed, but ye are sanctified, but ye are justified in the name of the Lord Jesus, and by the Spirit of our God. 12 All things are lawful unto me, but all things are not expedient: all things are lawful for me, but I will not be brought under the power of any.​

Even John is not saying we have to keep confessing sins once we are saved. He is talking about when one comes into the LIGHT. They have to recognize they are sinners. The LIGHT of the glorious Gospel, itself, opens our eyes to our sins and our need for a Saviour.

John even says the blood of Christ cleanses us from ALL SIN. All means ALL....not just those we confess. Therefore, you're reading more into that text than is actually there.

1 John 1:5-7 This then is the message which we have heard of him, and declare unto you, that God is light, and in him is no darkness at all. 6 If we say that we have fellowship with him, and walk in darkness, we lie, and do not the truth: 7 But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship one with another, and the blood of Jesus Christ his Son cleanseth us from all sin.
 
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