Hi glorydaz , I wonder if Jerry know about the OLD MAN and the NEW MAN ??
Or what Paul calls the Old Nature OR the New Nature !!
Probably not !!
dan p
Theology Club: The Hebrew Epistles and Where Do They Fit?
- Thread starter Jerry Shugart
- Start date
Hi glorydaz , I wonder if Jerry know about the OLD MAN and the NEW MAN ??
Or what Paul calls the Old Nature OR the New Nature !!
Probably not !!
dan p
glorydaz
Well-known member
I think there are lots of people who think it's too good to be true. :think:
Jerry Shugart
Well-known member
Do you think that Paul did the same thing that he accused Peter of doing--"But when I saw that they walked not uprightly according to the truth of the gospel."
I see no evidence of that.
But I still cannot trick my mind into believing that Peter was walking in the light when Paul accused him of not walking according to the truth of the gospel.
Jerry Shugart
Well-known member
Here is how people were saved between Adam and Moses:
"And without faith it is impossible to please God, because anyone who comes to him must believe that he exists and that he rewards those who earnestly seek him" (Heb.11:6).
"But in every nation he that feareth him, and worketh righteousness, is accepted with him" (Acts 10:35).
They were all saved by believing the revelation which they had from God and were saved just like Abraham was saved:
"Abraham believed God, and it was counted unto him for righteousness" (Ro.4:3).
How do you think that they were saved, Dan?
glorydaz
Well-known member
I find it strange that you can't see the similarities with what Paul had done, himself. What EXACTLY did Peter do? He stopped eating with the Gentiles in fear of the Jews. Right?
Gal. 2:11-12 But when Peter was come to Antioch, I withstood him to the face, because he was to be blamed. 12 For before that certain came from James, he did eat with the Gentiles: but when they were come, he withdrew and separated himself, fearing them which were of the circumcision.
Paul did exactly the same things that Peter did. More than once. When he said he "became as a Jew", he was doing the same that Peter had done. He circumcised Timothy so the Jews wouldn't be offended, for instance. Peter could have accused Paul of the same thing when he took the vow and cut his hair and circumcised Timothy.....
Acts 16:3
1 Corinthians 9:20
20 And unto the Jews I became as a Jew, that I might gain the Jews; to them that are under the law, as under the law, that I might gain them that are under the law;
20 And unto the Jews I became as a Jew, that I might gain the Jews; to them that are under the law, as under the law, that I might gain them that are under the law;
Please tell me why it was different. I'm all ears. They were both acting as though the Gospel of Grace wasn't enough by itself.
Or was it the fact that it was a bad example to the others who were there? That's a great sin, do you think?
Jerry Shugart
Well-known member
The motive of Paul in regard to what he said at 1 Corinthians 9:20 was entirely different than Peter's motive when Paul accused him of not walking according to the truth of the gospel. Paul's motive was altogeter honorable while Peter's motive was altogether shameful.
But you say that even though Peter was not walking according to the truth of the gospel he was walking in the light!
I don't think you are seeing the light if that is what you think.
But you say that even though Peter was not walking according to the truth of the gospel he was walking in the light!
I don't think you are seeing the light if that is what you think.
Hi Jerry and Gen 4:4 explains it , but Heb 11:4 is yet better by FAITH Abel offered a more excellent sacrifice than Cain !!
Though it is by FAITH , because Faith told him to bring a LAMB for a BLOOD sccrifice !!
Cain brought the WORK of His Hand , the Ftuit of his hands , in Gen 4:3 !!
It is the same today , works , Baptism , Repentance , Ordinances , Feast Days , Sabbaths Col 2:13-17 !!
dan p
glorydaz
Well-known member
I don't think you are seeing that we do not move back into darkness once we have the LIGHT OF LIFE in us. We are no longer children of the darkness, so our faults (even our fears or our hypocrisies) can NEVER move us out of the Light of LIFE which is Christ Jesus.
1 Thessalonians 5:5 Ye are all the children of light, and the children of the day: we are not of the night, nor of darkness.
glorydaz
Well-known member
Besides which, when I mentioned Jesus said lusting is committing adultery, you claimed that was for the future kingdom on earth, so why are you using Paul's motive as proof that his actions were acceptable and Peter's weren't?
Jerry Shugart
Well-known member
I don't think that you have yet to learn to separate a Christian's "position" in Christ (risen with Him and sitting with Him in heavenly places) from his "walk" (a Christian's actual life on the earth).
Here we read the following words of Paul when he speaks of a "darkness" which is in regard to the Christian's "walk":
"The night is far spent, the day is at hand: let us therefore cast off the works of darkness, and let us put on the armour of light. Let us walk honestly, as in the day; not in rioting and drunkenness, not in chambering and wantonness, not in strife and envying. But put ye on the Lord Jesus Christ, and make not provision for the flesh, to fulfil the lusts thereof. " (Ro.13:12-13).
Here it is plain that it is indeed possible for a Christian to do the things of darkness mentioned in this passage during his "walk." If it wasn't possible for a Christian partake of these things of darkness during his "walk" then why would Paul tell the Christian not to make provisions for the flesh which leads to the lusts of the flesh?
If it wasn't possible for a Christian to "walk" in darkness then it would make no sense for Paul to tell them to "cast off the works of darkness."
In order to understand Paul it is absolutely necessary to know the difference between the Christian's "position in Christ" and his "walk."
glorydaz
Well-known member
Then you'd be wise to read all of Paul's words on the subject, instead of just picking and choosing. We are where God says we are...not where the accuser of the brethren wants us to think we are. We are dead to sin, no longer slaves to sin. For some reason, you see sin everywhere, and you see believers as walking in darkness and sin. That isn't right. That rioting and wantonness? What in the world are you thinking? Is that how you live your life?
Do you think when Paul says, "Put ye on the Lord Jesus Christ", he is talking about something man can do through his own efforts, or does that happen when we are baptized by the Holy Spirit into the body of Christ?
It is high time to AWAKE OUT OF SLEEP.....that isn't a member of the body of Christ.
Romans 13:11-14 And that, knowing the time, that now it is high time to awake out of sleep: for now is our salvation nearer than when we believed. 12 The night is far spent, the day is at hand: let us therefore cast off the works of darkness, and let us put on the armour of light. 13 Let us walk honestly, as in the day; not in rioting and drunkenness, not in chambering and wantonness, not in strife and envying. 14 But put ye on the Lord Jesus Christ, and make not provision for the flesh, to fulfil the lusts thereof.
As Paul says here...."let us not sleep "as do others"......we are not of the night or darkness. Why do you keep insisting we can walk in darkness? Why do you accuse the brethren of sin? I don't think you are reading those verses correctly. We can not take off Christ and put Him on again, and that right there is your biggest clue.
1 Thess. 5:5 Ye are all the children of light, and the children of the day: we are not of the night, nor of darkness. 6 Therefore let us not sleep, as do others; but let us watch and be sober. 7 For they that sleep sleep in the night; and they that be drunken are drunken in the night. 8 But let us, who are of the day, be sober, putting on the breastplate of faith and love; and for an helmet, the hope of salvation.
Jerry Shugart
Well-known member
Paul's words mean just what they. The Greek word translated "put ye on" is in the Imperative Mood:
"The imperative mood corresponds to the English imperative, and expresses a command to the hearer to perform a certain action by the order and authority of the one commanding. Thus, Jesus' phrase, "Repent ye, and believe the gospel" (Mk.1:15) is not at all an "invitation," but an absolute command requiring full obedience on the part of all hearer" (The Blue Letter Bible).
That is in regard to a Christian's walk.
"The night is far spent, the day is at hand: let us therefore cast off the works of darkness, and let us put on the armour of light. Let us walk honestly, as in the day; not in rioting and drunkenness, not in chambering and wantonness, not in strife and envying. But put ye on the Lord Jesus Christ, and make not provision for the flesh, to fulfil the lusts thereof. " (Ro.13:12-13).
Since Paul tells the Christian to cast off the works of darkness then that can only mean that a Christian can indeed walk in darkness.
And that destroys your whole argument about 1 John 1:9.
glorydaz
Well-known member
In your mind, it does. :chuckle:
I see you continue to ignore that Paul says we are not in the darkness, but are children of the light. We cast off the works of darkness when we believed and were created new creatures in Christ Jesus. The works of darkness we used to walk in, when we were children of disobedience. Don't you know we have been accepted in the Beloved? Wherefore do you continue to doubt and accuse the brethren?
Eph. 4:5-7 For this ye know, that no whoremonger, nor unclean person, nor covetous man, who is an idolater, hath any inheritance in the kingdom of Christ and of God. 6 Let no man deceive you with vain words: for because of these things cometh the wrath of God upon the children of disobedience. 7 Be not ye therefore partakers with them. 8 For ye were sometimes darkness, but now are ye light in the Lord: walk as children of light:
And now it looks like you think we can put on the Lord Jesus Christ by our own efforts. Repent ye is by man's efforts as well. I guess you think our being made holy is by our own efforts, too.
This happened to me when I believed the Gospel. Are you suggesting it's something man is able to do for himself? Tell me how you would do this....by being careful not to step foot into the dark?
Galatians 3:27 For as many of you as have been baptized into Christ have put on Christ.
Ephesians 4:24 And that ye put on the new man, which after God is created in righteousness and true holiness.
Ephesians 4:24 And that ye put on the new man, which after God is created in righteousness and true holiness.
Jerry Shugart
Well-known member
You continue to fail to see the difference between the Christian's "position in Christ" and his "walk."
Those words of Paul were addressed to Christians who had already believed and were already created new creatures in Christ.
You are unable to deal with the words of Paul in the following passage without perverting their meaning:
"The night is far spent, the day is at hand: let us therefore cast off the works of darkness, and let us put on the armour of light. Let us walk honestly, as in the day; not in rioting and drunkenness, not in chambering and wantonness, not in strife and envying. But put ye on the Lord Jesus Christ, and make not provision for the flesh, to fulfil the lusts thereof." (Ro.13:12-13).
Since Paul tells those who are already saved to cast off the works of darkness then it is obvious that his words there have anything to do with casting off darkness by believing, as you assert. Since what Paul says in these verses completely destroy your theory you must pervert what Paul actually said.
Then you must believe that Paul was wrong when he told Christians to "put ye on the Lord Jesus Christ" because you don't know how to do that. I learned a long time ago how to do it:
"If ye then be risen with Christ, seek those things which are above, where Christ sitteth on the right hand of God. Set your affection on things above, not on things on the earth. For ye are dead, and your life is hid with Christ in God" (Col.3:1-3).
Again, the words of Paul at Romans 13:13-14 are addressed to those who have already believed the gospel.
You say that the words at 1 John 1:9 are addressed to unbelievers even though John makes it plain that his words are addressed to those who have already had their sins forgiven:
"I write unto you, little children, because your sins are forgiven you for his name's sake" (1 Jn.2:12).
I will ask you again. Can you give me the name of even one recognized theologian who agrees with you that John is adressing unbelievers at 1 John 1:9?
glorydaz
Well-known member
Just push replay, Jerry. For some reason, you never take into consideration that Paul cannot see into the hearts of all those who hear his messages. You assume he is only addressing believers. When he says to "examine yourselves whether you be in the faith", you would have us believe that he is speaking to the saved. No, Paul knew what you don't. His message is for all who hear....
When you tell me I continue to fail to see whatever, I can only respond in kind. You continue to fail to see..... For instance....
Paul is talking to everyone....those who have not yet put off the unfruitful works of darkness, which is why he speaks of waking from sleep, and putting on Christ. "High time to awake out of sleep...Romans 13:11 is being dead in sins. Just as Paul says here.....
Eph. 5:14 Wherefore he saith, Awake thou that sleepest, and arise from the dead, and Christ shall give thee light.
For some reason, you like to cherry pick those verses that you think proves your point, but ignore verses that make those verses clear for all who read them. Why?
Seriously, Jerry? So your claim is that those who set their affections on things above are putting on Christ? So Meshak and God's Untruth put on Christ by their very zeal?
If what I'm seeing from you of late, Jerry, I thank God I do not seek out recognized theologians.
And, once again, you ignore this verse.
Galatians 3:27 For as many of you as have been baptized into Christ have put on Christ.
Is being "baptized into Christ" something we do by setting our affections on things above? Or is it what the Holy Spirit does when we believe the Gospel? :chew:
musterion
Well-known member
Glory, when Paul said "examine yourselves," do you think he may have just been referring to the Corinthians who were doubting his apostleship? He was the one who preached Christ to them, so if Paul was false (as they were being told he was), then their faith was false as well...hence, he instructed them to examine themselves before despising and discarding him.
glorydaz
Well-known member
Well, he certainly was doing a tit for tat with them, wasn't he? And they were doubting him. Doesn't that make you wonder about their spiritual discernment? I think it made Paul wonder as well.
But I don't believe he was expecting to reason with them at this point. I'm convinced he saw their doubts as proof they really did need to examine themselves....whether they be IN the faith at all. He was doubting them, and rightfully so. (Oh ye of little faith.)
I think he was actually admonishing them for continuing to question him. He seems to be saying, if you were really saved, you'd know this.... how could they not know if they were truly spiritual and in Christ. He has been warning the Corinthians from the beginning...even calling some of them carnal unable to handle the milk of the word. In 1 Cor. 10:9, 12, he was warning them. Let him who thinks he stands take heed... He continued to seek proof....
2 Corinthians 2:9
For to this end also did I write, that I might know the proof of you, whether ye be obedient in all things.
2 Corinthians 8:8
I speak not by commandment, but by occasion of the forwardness of others, and to prove the sincerity of your love.
For to this end also did I write, that I might know the proof of you, whether ye be obedient in all things.
2 Corinthians 8:8
I speak not by commandment, but by occasion of the forwardness of others, and to prove the sincerity of your love.
'Rather than question me....examine yourselves.' His patience with them is being tested. (ingrates)
2 Cor. 13:10 10 Therefore I write these things being absent, lest being present I should use sharpness, according to the power which the Lord hath given me to edification, and not to destruction.
Jerry Shugart
Well-known member
I think that you have lost touch with reality because it is obvious that Paul is addressing those who are already saved. Or perhaps you are actually willing to argue that he is addessing those who do not believe here:
"To all that be in Rome, beloved of God, called to be saints: Grace to you and peace from God our Father, and the Lord Jesus Christ. First, I thank my God through Jesus Christ for you all, that your faith is spoken of throughout the whole world" (Ro.1:7-8).
You revert to perverting the Scriptures every time what they contradict your silly ideas. You say that what John said at 1 John 1:9 is addressed to unbelievers even though he made it plain that he was addressing those who already had their sins forgiven:
"I write unto you, little children, because your sins are forgiven you for his name's sake" (1 Jn.2:12).
Saved or not?
Maybe you can finally get something right!
Now I am returning to the subject of this thread and if you want you can attempt to try to prove me wrong go right ahead. We can see that Paul taught that the rapture was imminent:
"For our citizenship is in heaven; from whence also we look for the Saviour, the Lord Jesus Christ: Who shall change our vile body, that it may be fashioned like unto his glorious body...The Lord is at hand (eggus)" (Phil.3:20-21;4:5).
The Greek word eggus means "of times imminent and soon to come to pass" (Thayer's Greek English Lexicon).
In the Hebrew epistles we see a passage which describes the time when the Jewish believers will be made like the Lord Jesus, and that is exactly what will happen at the rapture:
"Beloved, now are we the sons of God, and it doth not yet appear what we shall be: but we know that, when he shall appear, we shall be like him; for we shall see him as he is" (1 Jn.3:2).
Now let us look at another verse from the Hebrew epistles where the same coming of the Lord is described as being near:
"You too, be patient and stand firm, because the Lord's coming is near" (James 5:8).
The Greek word translated "is near" at James 5:8 is eggizo and in this verse that word means "to be imminent" (A Greek English Lexicon, Liddell & Scott [Oxford: Clarendon Press, 1940], 467).
In an article found on the "Pre-Trib Research Center" web site Dr. Renald E. Showers writes:
"In light of James' statements C. Leslie Mitton wrote, 'James clearly believed, as others of his time did, that the coming of Christ was imminent.' On the basis of James' statements we can conclude that Christ's coming was imminent in New Testament times and continues to be so today, and that this fact should make a difference in the way Christians live" [emphasis added] (Showers, The Imminent Coming of Christ)
Since only those in the body will be raptured and since the only imminent appearance of the Lord Jesus is the rapture then we can know for certain that those who received the hebrew epistles were members of the Body of Christ.
glorydaz
Well-known member
Ah, so you're assuming everyone in Rome is saved. Gotcha.
I hope they all put on Christ like you did by setting your affections on things above.
Jerry Shugart
Well-known member
No, silly. Not all Rome! Only those called of Jesus Christ whose faith is spoken of throughout the whole world:
"Among whom are ye also the called of Jesus Christ: To all that be in Rome, beloved of God, called to be saints: Grace to you and peace from God our Father, and the Lord Jesus Christ. First, I thank my God through Jesus Christ for you all, that your faith is spoken of throughout the whole world" (Ro.1:6-8).
Why are you having such a hard time understanding these simple things?
Do you deny that Paul was telling the believers to put on Christ? The Greek word translated "put ye on" is in the Imperative Mood:
"The imperative mood corresponds to the English imperative, and expresses a command to the hearer to perform a certain action by the order and authority of the one commanding. Thus, Jesus' phrase, "Repent ye, and believe the gospel" (Mk.1:15) is not at all an "invitation," but an absolute command requiring full obedience on the part of all hearer" (The Blue Letter Bible).
Paul is commanding the believers to put on Christ. I have already told you how I think it should be done. How do you put on Christ?
Oh, I forgot!
You don't put on Christ.