Theology Club: Was Faith Plus Works Required For Salvation Under the Law?

[beloved57]

By the context we can see that Paul is speaking about Christians being in the flesh:

"Therefore, brethren, we are debtors, not to the flesh, to live after the flesh. For if ye live after the flesh, ye shall die: but if ye through the Spirit do mortify the deeds of the body, ye shall live" (Ro.8:12-13).​

If a Christian lives after the flesh and are not led by the Spirit then they cannot please God.

Those in the flesh cannot please God. Everyone by nature are in the flesh !

Paul plainly says believers are not in the flesh Rom 8:9

[FONT=&quot]But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his.[/FONT]

 

[Jerry Shugart]

Paul plainly says believers are not in the flesh Rom 8:9

[FONT="]But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his.[/FONT]

Of course at that time these Christians were not in the flesh because they were reading Paul's epistle.

but you just IGNORED the verses which demonstrate that a Christian can indeed walk after the flesh.

 

[beloved57]

Of course at that time these Christians were not in the flesh because they were reading Paul's epistle.

but you just IGNORED the verses which demonstrate that a Christian can indeed walk after the flesh.

So, you can't be a believer,with the Spirit of God in you and be in the flesh. So those in the flesh are the unregenerate without the Spirit. They can't please God!

 

[Jerry Shugart]

So, you can't be a believer,with the Spirit of God in you and be in the flesh. So those in the flesh are the unregenerate without the Spirit. They can't please God!

Is Paul addressing Christians here or unbelievers?:

"Therefore, brethren, we are debtors, not to the flesh, to live after the flesh. For if ye live after the flesh, ye shall die: but if ye through the Spirit do mortify the deeds of the body, ye shall live" (Ro.8:12-13).​

Of course these words are addressed to Christians and reveals the possibility that a Christian can live after the flesh.

 

[beloved57]

Is Paul addressing Christians here or unbelievers?:

"Therefore, brethren, we are debtors, not to the flesh, to live after the flesh. For if ye live after the flesh, ye shall die: but if ye through the Spirit do mortify the deeds of the body, ye shall live" (Ro.8:12-13).​

Of course these words are addressed to Christians and reveals the possibility that a Christian can live after the flesh.

Read it for yourself who he is addressing, that's not my emphasis,my emphasis is on what He wrote. He wrote that those who are in the flesh can't please God Rom 8:8. He also wrote to belivers ye are not in the flesh if the Spirit of God is in you ! Rom 8:9 so believers according to Paul aren't in the flesh. That reasonably means that them who are in the flesh are the natural unregenerated man. That man can't please God. Since Faith pleases God Heb 11:6, they in the flesh can't have Faith, or believe!

 

[Jerry Shugart]

Read it for yourself who he is addressing, that's not my emphasis,my emphasis is on what He wrote. He wrote that those who are in the flesh can't please God Rom 8:8.

It is obvious to anyone who will use his brain that Paul's following words are addressed to believers and those words reveal the possibility that a Christian can live after the flesh:

"Therefore, brethren, we are debtors, not to the flesh, to live after the flesh. For if ye live after the flesh, ye shall die: but if ye through the Spirit do mortify the deeds of the body, ye shall live" (Ro.8:12-13).​

Of course you do not want to discuss these verses because it destroys your interpretation of Romans 8:8.

 

[beloved57]

It is obvious to anyone who will use his brain that Paul's following words are addressed to believers and those words reveal the possibility that a Christian can live after the flesh:

"Therefore, brethren, we are debtors, not to the flesh, to live after the flesh. For if ye live after the flesh, ye shall die: but if ye through the Spirit do mortify the deeds of the body, ye shall live" (Ro.8:12-13).​

Of course you do not want to discuss these verses because it destroys your interpretation of Romans 8:8.

Those in the flesh can't please God Rom 8:8! You looking for reasons for your rejecting the truth of God!

 

[Danoh]

Romans 8:7 Because the carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be. 8:8 So then they that are in the flesh cannot please God. 8:9 But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his.

That there is the same "cannot please God" as in verse 17 in...

Galatians 5:1 Stand fast therefore in the liberty wherewith Christ hath made us free, and be not entangled again with the yoke of bondage.

5:13 For, brethren, ye have been called unto liberty; only use not liberty for an occasion to the flesh, but by love serve one another.

5:16 This I say then, Walk in the Spirit, and ye shall not fulfil the lust of the flesh. 5:17 For the flesh lusteth against the Spirit, and the Spirit against the flesh: and these are contrary the one to the other: so that ye cannot do the things that ye would. 5:18 But if ye be led of the Spirit, ye are not under the law.

5:24 And they that are Christ's have crucified the flesh with the affections and lusts. 5:25 If we live in the Spirit, let us also walk in the Spirit. 5:26 Let us not be desirous of vain glory, provoking one another, envying one another.

In both, the "can not please God" is the issue of finding oneself unable to SERVE God.

That was what Paul was talking about when he then went into the above in Romans 8.

Romans 7:21 I find then a law, that, when I would do good, evil is present with me. 7:22 For I delight in the law of God after the inward man: 7:23 But I see another law in my members, warring against the law of my mind, and bringing me into captivity to the law of sin which is in my members. 7:24 O wretched man that I am! who shall deliver me from the body of this death?

He was not referring to the sense you have turned Romans 8:8 into, B57.

For the fact of the matter is that the Believer has been accepted in the Beloved.

Why? To what end?

Ephesians 1:6 To the praise of the glory of his grace, wherein he hath made us accepted in the beloved.

The issue Paul is dealing with in Romans 6-8 is the issue of what will get in the way of the Believer's being ABLE TO serve God.

The issue is service ENABLEMENT.

As it also is in...

Galatians 5:13 For, brethren, ye have been called unto liberty; only use not liberty for an occasion to the flesh, but by love serve one another.

Romans 7:21 I find then a law, that, when I would do good, evil is present with me. 7:22 For I delight in the law of God after the inward man: 7:23 But I see another law in my members, warring against the law of my mind, and bringing me into captivity to the law of sin which is in my members. 7:24 O wretched man that I am! who shall deliver me from the body of this death?

The answer to this sense of failure; of condemnation?

Walk in an understanding as a reminder...of who you are in Christ.

Walk in that as the reminder...as a result of what "God through our Lord Jesus Christ" accomplished....

The reminder that as a result of that...

Romans 8:1 There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit. 8:2 For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus hath made me free from the law of sin and death. 8:3 For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh: 8:4 That the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit. 8:5 For they that are after the flesh do mind the things of the flesh; but they that are after the Spirit the things of the Spirit. 8:6 For to be carnally minded is death; but to be spiritually minded is life and peace. 8:7 Because the carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be. 8:8 So then they that are in the flesh cannot please God. 8:9 But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his.

That last part is not so much talking about lost people, as about what the Believer has access to because of who He now belongs to.

Sort of like saying to someone about to go outside on a bitter cold day for a minute without a coat - "anyone who does not have a coat; is going to freeze..."

In other words "you have a coat - put it on!"

In other words - you ARE the Lord's - walk in Him! It's who you now are!

 

[Jerry Shugart]

Romans 8:1 There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit. 8:2 For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus hath made me free from the law of sin and death. 8:3 For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh: 8:4 That the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit. 8:5 For they that are after the flesh do mind the things of the flesh; but they that are after the Spirit the things of the Spirit. 8:6 For to be carnally minded is death; but to be spiritually minded is life and peace. 8:7 Because the carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be. 8:8 So then they that are in the flesh cannot please God. 8:9 But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his.

That last part is not so much talking about lost people, as about what the Believer has access to because of who He now belongs to.

Sort of like saying to someone about to go outside on a bitter cold day for a minute without a coat - "anyone who does not have a coat; is going to freeze..."

In other words "you have a coat - put it on!"

In other words - you ARE the Lord's - walk in Him! It's who you now are!

EXCELLENT!

 

[Danoh]

In the following verse Paul is addressing those who already enjoy the salvation of their souls:

"And that, knowing the time, that now it is high time to awake out of sleep: for now is our salvation nearer than when we believed" (Ro.13:11).

Here Paul is not saying that the salvation of their souls remains in the future but instead he is speaking about the time when their mortal body will put on immorality at the rapture. So it is that way that a "salvation" remains in the future.

And that is exactly what the two verses of which you quoted above are speaking.



Here the Greek word translated "receiving" is in the "present" tense. Peter is telling them that they already have received the end or result of their faith, which is the "salvation of their soul. This translation clears up the meaning:

"for you are receiving the end result of your faith, the salvation of your souls" (1 Pet.1:9; NIV).​

I answered all of your verses but you just ignored mine which prove that these Christians were already saved:

"Forasmuch as ye know that ye were not redeemed with corruptible things, as silver and gold, from your vain conversation received by tradition from your fathers; But with the precious blood of Christ, as of a lamb without blemish and without spot" (1 Pet.1:18-19).​

These Christians were already "redeemed" by the blood of the Lord Jesus but despite this fact you continue to argue that they were not saved. You must not know what 'redemption" is about.

You also ignored these words which also demonstrates that these Christians were already saved:

"Who his own self bare our sins in his own body on the tree, that we, being dead to sins, should live unto righteousness: by whose stripes ye were healed" (1 Pet.2:24).​

Even though their sins have been taken away you still insist that they were not yet saved. And here is another verse written to the same Christians which demonstrate that they were already saved:

"And this is the record, that God hath given to us eternal life, and this life is in his Son" (1 Jn.5:11).​

They have been given eternal life and that life is in the Son. But you argue that they are not saved yet!

Good, solid post; Jerry.

Or as Paul had described Israel's Believing Remnant...

But some insist on fusing together an Believing Israelite's PERSONAL salvation with the Nation Israel's COLLECTIVE salvation.

There is this...

Romans 11:5 Even so then at this present time also there is a remnant according to the election of grace. 11:6 And if by grace, then is it no more of works: otherwise grace is no more grace. But if it be of works, then is it no more grace: otherwise work is no more work. 11:7 What then? Israel hath not obtained that which he seeketh for; but the election hath obtained it, and the rest were blinded.

And there is this...

Romans 11:25 For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in. 11:26 And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob: 11:27 For this is my covenant unto them, when I shall take away their sins.

 

[Danoh]

This is the better translation:

"We believe it is through the grace of our Lord Jesus that we are saved, just as they are" (Acts 15:11; NIV).

Here the Greek word translated "we are saved" is in the "aorist" tense and this defines that tense:

"The aorist tense is characterized by its emphasis on punctiliar action; that is, the concept of the verb is considered without regard for past, present, or future time. There is no direct or clear English equivalent for this tense, though it is generally rendered as a simple past tense in most translation" (The Blue Letter Bible).​

So Peter uses a tense that is saying that their salvation, whenever it happens, is on the principle of grace. And since Peter makes it plain at 1 Peter 1:18-19 that these Christians have already been redeemed by the blood of the Lord Jesus it is obvious that they are already saved....

Actually, an even stronger argument is the fact that because the aorist is not bound by a time frame, it is applied when a general rule of thumb or principle, is what is being referred to.

Acts 15:8 And God, which knoweth the hearts, bare them witness, giving them the Holy Ghost, even as he did unto us; 15:9 And put no difference between us and them, purifying their hearts by faith. 15:10 Now therefore why tempt ye God, to put a yoke upon the neck of the disciples, which neither our fathers nor we were able to bear? 15:11 But we believe that through the grace of the LORD Jesus Christ we shall be saved, even as they. 15:12 Then all the multitude kept silence, and gave audience to Barnabas and Paul, declaring what miracles and wonders God had wrought among the Gentiles by them.

Thus, what Peter is doing there is reminding his own of the general principle they were already aware of - that salvation is by grace through faith.

The issue being that some were asserting that only applied to Israelites and proselytes; as only they were considered clean.

Thus, why Peter brings up the end of the difference between Jew and Gentile that he brings up there.

This "no difference" NOW as to the INDIVIDUAL salvation of EITHER, now - AFTER the Law had proven BOTH "under sin" Rom. 3:19-20, was the very principle or general rule of thumb, that Paul reminds Peter of in the following...

Galatians 2:14 But when I saw that they walked not uprightly according to the truth of the gospel, I said unto Peter before them all, If thou, being a Jew, livest after the manner of Gentiles, and not as do the Jews, why compellest thou the Gentiles to live as do the Jews? 2:15 We who are Jews by nature, and not sinners of the Gentiles, 2:16 Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith of Christ, and not by the works of the law: for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified. 2:17 But if, while we seek to be justified by Christ, we ourselves also are found sinners, is therefore Christ the minister of sin? God forbid. 2:18 For if I build again the things which I destroyed, I make myself a transgressor. 2:19 For I through the law am dead to the law, that I might live unto God. 2:20 I am crucified with Christ: nevertheless I live; yet not I, but Christ liveth in me: and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by the faith of the Son of God, who loved me, and gave himself for me. 2:21 I do not frustrate the grace of God: for if righteousness come by the law, then Christ is dead in vain.

Again, the aorist tense is often used when a general rule of thum is being described. Which is what the "shall be" is in the sense of, in the following passage...

15:10 Now therefore why tempt ye God, to put a yoke upon the neck of the disciples, which neither our fathers nor we were able to bear? 15:11 But we believe that through the grace of the LORD Jesus Christ we shall be saved, even as they.

The "shall be" there is not referring to a time element, anymore than it is in a passage like the following...

Acts 19:39 But if ye enquire any thing concerning other matters, it shall be determined in a lawful assembly.

It is referring to a general rule of thumb not bound by time elements like the past, the present, and the future.

Rather, it refers to a general rule of thumb; a constant that is always the rule.

Said general rule of thumb here?

The one Paul reminded Peter of in Galatians 2, that he reminds the Galatians of in...

Galatians 3:11 But that no man is justified by the law in the sight of God, it is evident: for, The just shall live by faith.

 

[Danoh]

Acts 15:19 Wherefore my sentence is, that we trouble not them, which from among the Gentiles are turned to God: 15:20 But that we write unto them, that they abstain from pollutions of idols, and from fornication, and from things strangled, and from blood. 15:21 For Moses of old time hath in every city them that preach him, being read in the synagogues every sabbath day.

It's interesting what some make of the above.

Today's MJs (the various Messianic Jewish groups) assert that is referring to Noahide laws Gentiles were under.

Only to contradict themselves by asserting that verse 21 is referring to there being synagogues the Gentiles could learn the Law of Moses through, for them to keep.

But neither is the case.

In verse 20, every aspect of that is the issue of Gentile idol worship.

While verse 21 is the issue of their having been plenty of synagogues still blindly following the distinction between Jew and Gentile the Law through that distinction had actually proven both under sin and in need of God's grace in His Son.

15:22 Then pleased it the apostles and elders, with the whole church, to send chosen men of their own company to Antioch with Paul and Barnabas; namely, Judas surnamed Barsabas, and Silas, chief men among the brethren: 15:23 And they wrote letters by them after this manner; The apostles and elders and brethren send greeting unto the brethren which are of the Gentiles in Antioch and Syria and Cilicia: 15:24 Forasmuch as we have heard, that certain which went out from us have troubled you with words, subverting your souls, saying, Ye must be circumcised, and keep the law: to whom we gave no such commandment: 15:28 For it seemed good to the Holy Ghost, and to us, to lay upon you no greater burden than these necessary things; 15:29 That ye abstain from meats offered to idols, and from blood, and from things strangled, and from fornication: from which if ye keep yourselves, ye shall do well. Fare ye well.

Paul himself taught turning from ANY form of idolatry...

1 Corinthians 5:11 But now I have written unto you not to keep company, if any man that is called a brother be a fornicator, or covetous, or an idolater, or a railer, or a drunkard, or an extortioner; with such an one no not to eat.

1 Corinthians 6:9 Know ye not that the unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of God? Be not deceived: neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor abusers of themselves with mankind,

1 Corinthians 10:7 Neither be ye idolaters, as were some of them; as it is written, The people sat down to eat and drink, and rose up to play.

1 Corinthians 10:14 Wherefore, my dearly beloved, flee from idolatry.

1 Corinthians 12:2 Ye know that ye were Gentiles, carried away unto these dumb idols, even as ye were led.

2 Corinthians 6:16 And what agreement hath the temple of God with idols? for ye are the temple of the living God; as God hath said, I will dwell in them, and walk in them; and I will be their God, and they shall be my people.

Galatians 5:20 Idolatry, witchcraft, hatred, variance, emulations, wrath, strife, seditions, heresies,

Ephesians 5:5 For this ye know, that no whoremonger, nor unclean person, nor covetous man, who is an idolater, hath any inheritance in the kingdom of Christ and of God.

Colossians 3:5 Mortify therefore your members which are upon the earth; fornication, uncleanness, inordinate affection, evil concupiscence, and covetousness, which is idolatry:

Why?

1 Thessalonians 1:8 For from you sounded out the word of the Lord not only in Macedonia and Achaia, but also in every place your faith to God-ward is spread abroad; so that we need not to speak any thing. 1:9 For they themselves shew of us what manner of entering in we had unto you, and how ye turned to God from idols to serve the living and true God; 1:10 And to wait for his Son from heaven, whom he raised from the dead, even Jesus, which delivered us from the wrath to come.

 

[Jerry Shugart]

Actually, an even stronger argument is the fact that because the aorist is not bound by a time frame, it is applied when a general rule of thumb or principle, is what is being referred to.

Could you please quote a Greek expert explaining that? Your explanation leaves me confused.