Theology Club: A28D

musterion

Well-known member
That would seem to indicate that everyone is considered Gentile (as there is no distinction and all are the same).

In a sense, yes. Nationally, all nations are now as all nations were at Babel.

But Paul seems to preach that Israel is not cast away (Rom 1:1-2).

Right. When he wrote that, they weren't yet. Stumbled, fallen, partly blinded in unbelief, but not discarded. I think of it like this: that branch was broken off, sure enough, but it was still in God's hand. He hadn't cast it aside yet, so He could have still grafted it back in (Rom 11:23), pending their repentance. But we know they didn't. That's the only way it makes sense to me.

And that there is still a distinction between Gentiles and Israel (Rom 11:28).

Yes, then. Jews were even then personally no better than Gentile dogs (Rom 3:9) but God was still appealing to Israel.

There is no distinction for the BOC.

True.

But I'm not sure we can flatly say that there is no Israel (distinct from Gentiles) at all at this time.

I'm always willing to be shown wrong but a lot of Romans makes no sense to me if God was not yet, at the time Paul wrote it, still in some sense dealing with Israel as Israel.
 

Tambora

Get your armor ready!
LIFETIME MEMBER
Hall of Fame
Yes, I believe the blindness was in part until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in.
The grace was extended to all Gentiles (the fulness be come in) after Acts, after their "casting away".

:e4e:
Does that mean you think the blindness has already ended by the end of Acts?
Cause if they are still being partially blinded, then God is still dealing with Israel as Israel.
 

steko

Well-known member
LIFETIME MEMBER
Doesn't there have to be a group of people called Israel out of which there are 144,000 sealed during the time of Jacob's trouble?
It seems to me that they already exist in the world when they come to be sealed and do not just 'poof' into existence at the point of sealing.
 

Tambora

Get your armor ready!
LIFETIME MEMBER
Hall of Fame
Yes, I believe the casting away of them at the close of Acts ushered in the dispensation of the grace of God for you (alien) Gentiles.
OK, thanks.

But just so nothing is left as 'vague' to any readers ......
The fullness of the Gentiles came at the end of Acts, and the partial blinding was lifted at that time (end of Acts).
And from the end of Acts onward (up to today), only the grace gospel is available to anyone and the kingdom gospel is available to no one.
And at the rapture of the BOC, the grace gospel is no longer available, but the kingdom gospel is available again.

Does that kinda sum it up?
 

Tambora

Get your armor ready!
LIFETIME MEMBER
Hall of Fame
I've always considered Paul's phrase 'the fullness of the gentiles' to mean the completion of Paul's ministry to the nations and the resuming of GOD's program for national Israel in the 70th week.

I'm listening and considering all this with an openness to change.
It all hinges on what 'fullness of the Gentiles" can mean.

I'm listening too!
Love you guys for taking the time to kick things around in an effort to nail things down and eliminate any vagueness we can.

I just love this place!
 

steko

Well-known member
LIFETIME MEMBER
It all hinges on what 'fullness of the Gentiles" can mean.

I'm listening too!
Love you guys for taking the time to kick things around in an effort to nail things down and eliminate any vagueness we can.

I just love this place!


In my thinking, 11:25's 'the fullness of the Gentiles' would be complete when the Deliverer of 11:26 turns ungodliness from Jacob and the taking away of sins in 11:26 takes place when GOD makes His covenant with them.

Rom 11:25 For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in.
Rom 11:26 And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob:
Rom 11:27 For this is my covenant unto them, when I shall take away their sins.


To me, the fullness of the Gentiles also corresponds to the building again of the house of David concerning the dynasty of the throne and it promised to Jesus Messiah (Mt 25:31), the Kingdom restored to Israel and with Israel's rise, the residue of the nations come to seek the Lord in Jerusalem through the Gospel of the Kingdom Mt 28:18-20 (see the Prophets concerning Israel to the nations).

Act 15:16 After this I will return, and will build again the tabernacle of David, which is fallen down; and I will build again the ruins thereof, and I will set it up:
Act 15:17 That the residue of men might seek after the Lord, and all the Gentiles, upon whom my name is called, saith the Lord, who doeth all these things.
 

SaulToPaul 2

Well-known member
Acts 28
25 And when they agreed not among themselves, they departed, after that Paul had spoken one word, Well spake the Holy Ghost by Esaias the prophet unto our fathers,

26 Saying, Go unto this people, and say, Hearing ye shall hear, and shall not understand; and seeing ye shall see, and not perceive:

27 For the heart of this people is waxed gross, and their ears are dull of hearing, and their eyes have they closed; lest they should see with their eyes, and hear with their ears, and understand with their heart, and should be converted, and I should heal them.

28 Be it known therefore unto you, that the salvation of God is sent unto the Gentiles, and that they will hear it.



The third time this was quoted during Acts.



Romans 11
15 For if the casting away of them be the reconciling of the world, what shall the receiving of them be, but life from the dead?



The blinded were cast away, and in doing so were able to receive life from the dead via the gospel of the grace of God.
 

DAN P

Well-known member
Yes, I believe the casting away of them at the close of Acts ushered in the dispensation of the grace of God for you (alien) Gentiles.


Hi STP , and in Acts 13:46 the verb WE TURN / STREPHO is in the Greek PRESENT TENSE , PASSIVE VOICE and in the Indicative Mood !

Why is this important ?? as this ;places this we turn happened early in Paul's ministry !!

And other reason , why Acts 13:46 and Acts 18:6 and Acts 28:28 and the NUMBER 3 , means it is COMPLETE and will be accomplished !!

In Acts 28:28 , we have another verb WAS / APOSTELLO and is in the AOTIST TENSE or what we call the PAST TENSE and then means the the message to the Gentiles has already been SENT , not at Acts 28:28 !!

Also 2 Cor 3:13-16 , already speaks of Israel's fall before Acts 28:28 !!

The B O C BEGAN with a person and then given a message that is new and a MYSTERY to all !!

There are many other verse !!

dan p
 

Danoh

New member
Hi STP , and in Acts 13:46 the verb WE TURN / STREPHO is in the Greek PRESENT TENSE , PASSIVE VOICE and in the Indicative Mood !

Why is this important ?? as this ;places this we turn happened early in Paul's ministry !!

And other reason , why Acts 13:46 and Acts 18:6 and Acts 28:28 and the NUMBER 3 , means it is COMPLETE and will be accomplished !!

In Acts 28:28 , we have another verb WAS / APOSTELLO and is in the AOTIST TENSE or what we call the PAST TENSE and then means the the message to the Gentiles has already been SENT , not at Acts 28:28 !!

Also 2 Cor 3:13-16 , already speaks of Israel's fall before Acts 28:28 !!

The B O C BEGAN with a person and then given a message that is new and a MYSTERY to all !!

There are many other verse !!

dan p

Yep - exactly!

Excellent point about the actual sense of...

Acts 28:28 Be it known therefore unto you, that the salvation of God is sent (aroist or past tense = has been sent) unto the Gentiles, and that they will hear it.

The sense is that it has long already been sent.

Many years earlier...

Acts 18:5 And when Silas and Timotheus were come from Macedonia, Paul was pressed in the spirit, and testified to the Jews that Jesus was Christ. 18:6 And when they opposed themselves, and blasphemed, he shook his raiment, and said unto them, Your blood be upon your own heads; I am clean: from henceforth I will go unto the Gentiles.

Decades earlier...

Acts 13:44 And the next sabbath day came almost the whole city together to hear the word of God. 13:45 But when the Jews saw the multitudes, they were filled with envy, and spake against those things which were spoken by Paul, contradicting and blaspheming. 13:46 Then Paul and Barnabas waxed bold, and said, It was necessary that the word of God should first have been spoken to you: but seeing ye put it from you, and judge yourselves unworthy of everlasting life, lo, we turn to the Gentiles. 13:47 For so hath the Lord commanded us, saying, I have set thee to be a light of the Gentiles, that thou shouldest be for salvation unto the ends of the earth. 13:48 And when the Gentiles heard this, they were glad, and glorified the word of the Lord: and as many as were ordained to eternal life believed.

A few years earlier still...

Acts 9:28 And he was with them coming in and going out at Jerusalem. 9:29 And he spake boldly in the name of the Lord Jesus, and disputed against the Grecians: but they went about to slay him. 9:30 Which when the brethren knew, they brought him down to Caesarea, and sent him forth to Tarsus. 9:31 Then had the churches rest throughout all Judaea and Galilee and Samaria, and were edified; and walking in the fear of the Lord, and in the comfort of the Holy Ghost, were multiplied.

This here...

Galatians 1:20 Now the things which I write unto you, behold, before God, I lie not. 1:21 Afterwards I came into the regions of Syria and Cilicia; 1:22 And was unknown by face unto the churches of Judaea which were in Christ: 1:23 But they had heard only, That he which persecuted us in times past now preacheth the faith which once he destroyed. 1:24 And they glorified God in me.

What did he do in the regions of Syria and Clicia IN ACTS 9?

He preached his free from the law / no distinction gospel among Jews and Gentiles alike - we find that out later, in...

Acts 15:22 Then pleased it the apostles and elders, with the whole church, to send chosen men of their own company to Antioch with Paul and Barnabas; namely, Judas surnamed Barsabas, and Silas, chief men among the brethren: 15:23 And they wrote letters by them after this manner; The apostles and elders and brethren send greeting unto the brethren which are of the Gentiles in Antioch and Syria and Cilicia: 15:24 Forasmuch as we have heard, that certain which went out from us have troubled you with words, subverting your souls, saying, Ye must be circumcised, and keep the law: to whom we gave no such commandment: 15:25 It seemed good unto us, being assembled with one accord, to send chosen men unto you with our beloved Barnabas and Paul, 15:26 Men that have hazarded their lives for the name of our Lord Jesus Christ.

15:36 And some days after Paul said unto Barnabas, Let us go again and visit our brethren in every city where we have preached the word of the LORD, and see how they do.

15:40 And Paul chose Silas, and departed, being recommended by the brethren unto the grace of God. 15:41 And he went through Syria and Cilicia, confirming the churches.

:thumb:

Rom. 14:5; Rom. 5:6-8.
 
Top