Theology Club: A28D

[heir]

You might as well just go all the way to Acts 28:28 with that - it fits much of their error like a glove that is only just a little bit off :chuckle:

Fact is, when Paul was saved, he was saved in the same spiritual UNcircumcision his nation had just been concluded in.

Acts 7:51 Ye stiffnecked and uncircumcised in heart and ears, ye do always resist the Holy Ghost: as your fathers did, so do ye. 7:52 Which of the prophets have not your fathers persecuted? and they have slain them which shewed before of the coming of the Just One; of whom ye have been now the betrayers and murderers: 7:53 Who have received the law by the disposition of angels, and have not kept it. 7:54 When they heard these things, they were cut to the heart, and they gnashed on him with their teeth.

Acts 26:8 Why should it be thought a thing incredible with you, that God should raise the dead? 26:9 I verily thought with myself, that I ought to do many things contrary to the name of Jesus of Nazareth. 26:10 Which thing I also did in Jerusalem: and many of the saints did I shut up in prison, having received authority from the chief priests; and when they were put to death, I gave my voice against them. 26:11 And I punished them oft in every synagogue, and compelled them to blaspheme; and being exceedingly mad against them, I persecuted them even unto strange cities.

That is his description of Acts 9. So is this...

1 Timothy 1:12 And I thank Christ Jesus our Lord, who hath enabled me, for that he counted me faithful, putting me into the ministry; 1:13 Who was before a blasphemer, and a persecutor, and injurious: but I obtained mercy, because I did it ignorantly in unbelief. 1:14 And the grace of our Lord was exceeding abundant with faith and love which is in Christ Jesus. 1:15 This is a faithful saying, and worthy of all acceptation, that Christ Jesus came into the world to save sinners; of whom I am chief. 1:16 Howbeit for this cause I obtained mercy, that in me first Jesus Christ might shew forth all longsuffering, for a pattern to them which should hereafter believe on him to life everlasting.

You show the fall of Israel at the stoning of Stephen but cannot show the casting away of them until the close of Acts.

 

[Danoh]

Terence cannot stand Jordan and in fact, calls him out on his site and exhorts others to Romans 16:17 KJV Jordan. Danoh has them holding hands and singing Kumbaya, but it's not happening.

:rotfl:

The way you put that was hilarious!

Good to see your sense of humour; even if an iron jawed one :chuckle:

Smile woman - thou art loosed, lol

And yes, I am well aware that just before Terrence opens his mouth about Richard; his spit turns to acid - which also cracks me up :rotfl:

 

[Danoh]

You show the fall of Israel at the stoning of Stephen but cannot show the casting away of them until the close of Acts.

My observation is that you just don't see it from where YOU approach looking at things from.

And I note that objectively; not as a put down - though I could have opted for a ribbing :chuckle:

With the raising up of Paul; God is no longer working through that nation with - the result begin that it appears He has cast them away for good; so Paul addresses that as not being the case - Rom. 11:25 - THAT is Paul's point.

He is NOT re-offering them THEIR gospel of the kingdom - he is concerned that Rom. 11:25 will happen in his day, and many of his UNbelieving kinsman after the flesh will end up lost in the coming Tribulation "for the wrath of God is come upon them to the uttermost" 1 Thess. 2:16.

Again, sister; we simply look at these things from a different level below their seeming surface.*

You from yours below said seeming surface; I from mine.

Unless you do not hold that Paul had held to the Body's blessed hope's any moment aspect.

*Consider that an improvement on my prior "surface level" phrase.

 

[heir]

My observation is that you just don't see it from where YOU approach looking at things from.

I know Israel fell (Romans 11:11-12 KJV, Romans 11:25 KJV), but had not yet been cast away (Romans 11:1 KJV). Paul was sent to Jews all the way through the Acts period (Acts 26:17 KJV, Romans 1:16 KJV, 1 Corinthians 1:24 KJV. Acts 28:20 KJV, Acts 28:24-31 KJV) which is absolutely problematic for those like you who insist the Jew had no advantage (which they clearly did Romans 3:1-3 KJV). Paul already knows that all Israel shall be saved as in Romans 11:26-27 KJV so to say that he was sent to Gentiles (and those certain) to provoke to emulation them which are his flesh (Romans 11:13-14 KJV) makes NO SENSE unless there were some out of Israel who would believe his gospel! Cue God's foreknowledge on a present time remnant that would believe (Romans 11:1-6 KJV). Whoomp, there it is!

 

[SaulToPaul 2]

I know Israel fell (Romans 11:11-12 KJV, Romans 11:25 KJV), but had not yet been cast away (Romans 11:1 KJV). Paul was sent to Jews all the way through the Acts period (Acts 26:17 KJV, Romans 1:16 KJV, 1 Corinthians 1:24 KJV. Acts 28:20 KJV, Acts 28:24-31 KJV) which is absolutely problematic for those like you who insist the Jew had no advantage (which they clearly did Romans 3:1-3 KJV). Paul already knows that all Israel shall be saved as in Romans 11:26-27 KJV so to say that he was sent to Gentiles (and those certain) to provoke to emulation them which are his flesh (Romans 11:13-14 KJV) makes NO SENSE unless there were some out of Israel who would believe his gospel! Cue God's foreknowledge on a present time remnant that would believe (Romans 11:1-6 KJV). Whoomp, there it is!

:BRAVO:

 

[Danoh]

Lol, I was wondering if you'd thrown in the towel, STP, but I forgot you jump back in when heir posts :chuckle:

You do realize she is a mightly Helen Crump in her own right; who never needs Andy to wet nurse her :rotfl:

Good for you heir; stand your ground til fully persuaded otherwise; champ.

 

[Danoh]

Paul went to Jews that he "might save some" thru his gospel of the UNcircumcision his Apostleship of the Gentiles was magnifying - not through their already on hold gospel of the kingdom.

 

[heir]

Paul went to Jews that he "might save some" thru his gospel of the UNcircumcision his Apostleship of the Gentiles was magnifying - not through their already on hold gospel of the kingdom.

Who said anything about Paul preaching the gospel of the kingdom? Certainly not me! Paul could not even be forgiven under it (Matthew 12:31-32 KJV).

 

[beameup]

Paul saw the risen Christ, he didn't know Christ "after the flesh".
He then received direct revelations from the risen Christ over a series of years.
These revelations were unique to the Apostle Paul, as Peter attests some things were "hard to understand".
As long as the Temple stood, it was "possible" for the fulfillment of the Kingdom.

 

[Danoh]

Paul saw the risen Christ, he didn't know Christ "after the flesh".
He then received direct revelations from the risen Christ over a series of years.
These revelations were unique to the Apostle Paul, as Peter attests some things were "hard to understand".
As long as the Temple stood, it was "possible" for the fulfillment of the Kingdom.

I'm not sure I see your point; I am not aware of a MAD who would disagree with any of this that you have just posted.

 

[musterion]

I know Israel fell (Romans 11:11-12 KJV, Romans 11:25 KJV), but had not yet been cast away (Romans 11:1 KJV). Paul was sent to Jews all the way through the Acts period (Acts 26:17 KJV, Romans 1:16 KJV, 1 Corinthians 1:24 KJV. Acts 28:20 KJV, Acts 28:24-31 KJV) which is absolutely problematic for those like you who insist the Jew had no advantage (which they clearly did Romans [as of] 3:1-3 KJV). Paul already knows that all Israel shall be saved as in Romans 11:26-27 KJV so to say that he was sent to Gentiles (and those certain) to provoke to emulation them which are his flesh (Romans 11:13-14 KJV) makes NO SENSE unless there were some out of Israel who would believe his gospel! Cue God's foreknowledge on a present time remnant that would believe (Romans 11:1-6 KJV). Whoomp, there it is!

Thank you -- I never clearly saw the part in red until just now. Always took it as Paul speaking historically but it looks now like he was speaking of them at that time. You're an undisguised blessing.

 

[Tambora]

If God had cast them away (as in 'no longer dealing with them'), then no Israelite could believe the grace gospel and be saved by it today.

Unless you take 'cast away' as meaning there IS NO more Israel at this time, and therefore the whole world at this time (including all those born of the 12 tribes) are now considered Gentiles (ie. no more distinction between them - all in the same boat).

But then you would have to deal with "they are enemies for the gospel's sake, but are beloved for the father's sake".
Got to still be a distinct Israel for that to still be true today.

ALL the dots need to line up.

 

[Grosnick Marowbe]

Lol, I was wondering if you'd thrown in the towel, STP, but I forgot you jump back in when heir posts :chuckle:

You do realize she is a mightly Helen Crump in her own right; who never needs Andy to wet nurse her :rotfl:

Good for you heir; stand your ground til fully persuaded otherwise; champ.

So speaks "Danoh," Enemy of the MADs.

 

[musterion]

If God had cast them away (as in 'no longer dealing with them'), then no Israelite could believe the grace gospel and be saved by it today.

Why not? Isn't the gospel of grace intended exactly for those who God otherwise would have given up on (meaning everyone, no difference), leaving grace as all that's left? But I may not understand your point?

 

[SaulToPaul 2]

If God does not cast them away at the end of Acts, then he cannot have mercy on them all.

Casting away those that rejected Lord's earthly ministry and those that rejected Paul's ministry to the Jew first was an act of mercy on the Lord's part. This makes them on the same level with the pagan Gentile to whom the dispensation of the grace of God is for.

 

[patrick jane]

Lol, I was wondering if you'd thrown in the towel, STP, but I forgot you jump back in when heir posts :chuckle:

You do realize she is a mightly Helen Crump in her own right; who never needs Andy to wet nurse her :rotfl:

Good for you heir; stand your ground til fully persuaded otherwise; champ.

Troublemaker -

 

[Grosnick Marowbe]

Troublemaker -

He seems to enjoy causing dissension.

 

[Tambora]

Why not? Isn't the gospel of grace intended exactly for those who God otherwise would have given up on (meaning everyone, no difference), leaving grace as all that's left? But I may not understand your point?

That would seem to indicate that everyone is considered Gentile (as there is no distinction and all are the same).

But Paul seems to preach that Israel is not cast away (Rom 1:1-2).
And that there is still a distinction between Gentiles and Israel (Rom 11:28).

There is no distinction for the BOC.
But I'm not sure we can flatly say that there is no Israel (distinct from Gentiles) at all at this time.

 

[Tambora]

If God does not cast them away at the end of Acts, then he cannot have mercy on them all.

Well, He doesn't have mercy on them all.
He has partially blinded.
Unless you think that the blindness has been lifted by the end of Acts.

Casting away those that rejected Lord's earthly ministry and those that rejected Paul's ministry to the Jew first was an act of mercy on the Lord's part. This makes them on the same level with the pagan Gentile to whom the dispensation of the grace of God is for.

If they are on the same level, then what happened to the blindness?
Has that blindness ended as of yet?

 

[SaulToPaul 2]

Well, He doesn't have mercy on them all.
He has partially blinded.
Unless you think that the blindness has been lifted by the end of Acts.

If they are on the same level, then what happened to the blindness?
Has that blindness ended as of yet?

Yes, I believe the blindness was in part until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in.
The grace was extended to all Gentiles (the fulness be come in) after Acts, after their "casting away".

:e4e: