Theology Club: Grace History Project: Darby

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That's where Paul said everything happened.
Respectfully, Paul said THIS quite a long time AFTER the CROSS. These things were NOT known AT the CROSS.
Joh 20:9 KJV For as yet they knew not the scripture, that he must rise again from the dead.

Mat 28:16-17 KJV Then the eleven disciples went away into Galilee, into a mountain where Jesus had appointed them. (17) And when they saw him, they worshipped him: but some doubted.

Luk 24:7-12 KJV Saying, The Son of man must be delivered into the hands of sinful men, and be crucified, and the third day rise again. (8) And they remembered his words, (9) And returned from the sepulchre, and told all these things unto the eleven, and to all the rest. (10) It was Mary Magdalene, and Joanna, and Mary the mother of James, and other women that were with them, which told these things unto the apostles. (11) And their words seemed to them as idle tales, and they believed them not. (12) Then arose Peter, and ran unto the sepulchre; and stooping down, he beheld the linen clothes laid by themselves, and departed, wondering in himself at that which was come to pass.
It was Paul to whon God revealed the details of the mystery of Christ.

Remove Act 9 through Philemon and then describe the gospel of the grace of God. It can't be done.
 

Lazy afternoon

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2 Thes ch 1 sorts it all out.

2Th 1:4 So that we ourselves glory in you in the churches of God for your patience and faith in all your persecutions and tribulations that ye endure:
2Th 1:5 Which is a manifest token of the righteous judgment of God, that ye may be counted worthy of the kingdom of God, for which ye also suffer:
2Th 1:6 Seeing it is a righteous thing with God to recompense tribulation to them that trouble you;
2Th 1:7 And to you who are troubled rest with us, when the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with his mighty angels,
2Th 1:8 In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ:
2Th 1:9 Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power;
2Th 1:10 When he shall come to be glorified in his saints, and to be admired in all them that believe (because our testimony among you was believed) in that day.

2Th 2:1 Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him,
2Th 2:2 That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand.
2Th 2:3 Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;
2Th 2:4 Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God.
 

Lazy afternoon

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You should read the whole article and study Darby. :rapture:

Mat 24:4 And Jesus answered and said unto them, Take heed that no man deceive you.
Mat 24:5 For many shall come in my name, saying, I am Christ; and shall deceive many.
Mat 24:6 And ye shall hear of wars and rumours of wars: see that ye be not troubled: for all these things must come to pass, but the end is not yet.
Mat 24:7 For nation shall rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom: and there shall be famines, and pestilences, and earthquakes, in divers places.
Mat 24:8 All these are the beginning of sorrows.
Mat 24:9 Then shall they deliver you up to be afflicted, and shall kill you: and ye shall be hated of all nations for my name's sake.
Mat 24:10 And then shall many be offended, and shall betray one another, and shall hate one another.
Mat 24:11 And many false prophets shall rise, and shall deceive many.
Mat 24:12 And because iniquity shall abound, the love of many shall wax cold.
Mat 24:13 But he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved.
 

Totton Linnet

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And THEY will - after "the wrath" of those days that He will empower THEM to "endure unto the end...by..." their relying on "the word of His patience" to THEM.

THEY are "going to have tribulation." BUT, He related "be of good cheer" in other words, glory in it, for He has "overcome" their portion FOR them.

The pattern for this is based in Moses. You see this collective tribulation that both unbelieving and believing Israelites had to endure as one nation under God - the ONLY nation in the history of this planet that God ever entered into this Covenant with.

Reread Daniel 9's prayer - this was his understanding.

He is one of the most outstanding examples of faith in ALL of Scripture; right?

And yet, where is he in Daniel. Under God's wrath with his nation; his faith saving him through the resulting trials and tribulations his nation had entered into with God under Moses.

Again, just reread Daniel 9's prayer at the beginning of the chapter.

Israel is a nation under God in the Law of Moses, not individual Jew and Gentile, as in the Body of Christ.

They obey together or they suffer together. Read Daniel 9's prayer.

Add to that simply reading Deuteronomy 4 and Leviticus 26.

Did I mention - read Daniel 9's prayer, lol

Oh now listen my dear Danoh

God's dealings with Israel whether in blessing or in judgement is not at all to be compared with God's wrath, this is a serious mistake to make.

When God judges His people, and this also applies to us as individual members of the body of Christ, He judges and chastises us precisely so that He will not have to judge us and punish us [or them] with the unbelieving world....it is not the wrath of God.

In fact a very careful reading of Daniel and the relevant portions of Jeremiah dealing with Israel's being carried off to Babylon will reveal that far from suffering Israel actually prospered and did well in Babylon each man sitting under his vine and under his fig tree.

Daniel himself was in a very high position in government.

This is WHY Jeremiah was so urgent in persuading the Jews to submit to deportation and why he so strongly advised against the Jews going down to Egypt...those who did were massacred.

Be clear in your mind once and forever God is not angry with us in the sense of wishing our destruction, for US and for the believing Jews all ...I will say that again ALL of God's wrath has been expended upon our dear Lord Jesus on the cross....for His people it is gone forever.

He still will chastise us in measure.

But the wrath spoken about is God's fury poured out unmeasured upon the wicked. God simply cannot do this while even a single one of His children could be the recipient of it. That is WHY we are gathered to the Lord and that is why the Jews will everyone of them be gathered to their own land.....God will pour His fury upon the nations who come up with Antichrist to Jerusalem....this why Jesus says to flee Jerusalem.
 

Totton Linnet

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Tribulation comes from the word trouble.

It is Jacob's trouble, the great tribulation is Jacob's trouble.

Well what WAS Jacob's trouble? was it with God? can you show any place in Jacob's life when God was angry with him? no

Jacob's trouble was when he was fleeing Laban, he had Laban galloping behind him and up ahead [so he thought] was Esau waiting to get his hands upon him.

It was a time of great terror for Jacob but in actual fact he had no need for God was watching over him both before with Esau and behind with Laban.
 

Totton Linnet

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Respectfully, Paul said THIS quite a long time AFTER the CROSS. These things were NOT known AT the CROSS.
Joh 20:9 KJV For as yet they knew not the scripture, that he must rise again from the dead.

Mat 28:16-17 KJV Then the eleven disciples went away into Galilee, into a mountain where Jesus had appointed them. (17) And when they saw him, they worshipped him: but some doubted.

Luk 24:7-12 KJV Saying, The Son of man must be delivered into the hands of sinful men, and be crucified, and the third day rise again. (8) And they remembered his words, (9) And returned from the sepulchre, and told all these things unto the eleven, and to all the rest. (10) It was Mary Magdalene, and Joanna, and Mary the mother of James, and other women that were with them, which told these things unto the apostles. (11) And their words seemed to them as idle tales, and they believed them not. (12) Then arose Peter, and ran unto the sepulchre; and stooping down, he beheld the linen clothes laid by themselves, and departed, wondering in himself at that which was come to pass.
It was Paul to whon God revealed the details of the mystery of Christ.

Remove Act 9 through Philemon and then describe the gospel of the grace of God. It can't be done.

That does not alter the fact that the new dispensation began at the cross. Whether Peter and co understood it or not is irrelevant.

In fact they did come to understand it in the matter of Cornelius and in the matter of those Gentiles who were saved at Antioch.

Yet they remained totally UNSUITED to be competent ministers of the gospel to the Gentiles. It was entirely necessary for God to raise up Paul.

But look here if it happened at the cross then you cain't lop off the Jews. This is the very fine line with which I disagree with MAD, but it is MASSIVE.

I mean the Jewish church....MAD divides at the wrong place between the wrong people. They fail to understand that when Paul turned away from the Jews [not that he ever did in reality] to the Gentiles, it wasn't the Jewish church he was turning away from but the Jews of the synagogues, the Jewish nation, the Christ rejecting Jews.

As for the Christ accepting Jews we Gentiles are made one body with them, made fellow citizens of their commonwealth, co-heirs of their promises...yet without having to obey their commandments.

If you lop the Jews off then with whom are we made fellow citizens of the commonwealth? with whom are we made co-heirs? all the promises are made to THEM how can we cut them off?
 

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That does not alter the fact that the new dispensation began at the cross. Whether Peter and co understood it or not is irrelevant.
The idea that a new dispensation begins BEFORE God DISPENSES it is nonsense.

In fact they did come to understand it in the matter of Cornelius and in the matter of those Gentiles who were saved at Antioch.
Cornelius was not a far away Gentile. He was one that was close to Israel and blessed them.
Act 10:2 KJV A devout man, and one that feared God with all his house, which gave much alms to the people, and prayed to God alway.
Peter does NOT preach GRACE to him, but this:
Act 10:34-44 KJV Then Peter opened his mouth, and said, Of a truth I perceive that God is no respecter of persons: (35) But in every nation he that feareth him, and worketh righteousness, is accepted with him. (36) The word which God sent unto the children of Israel, preaching peace by Jesus Christ: (he is Lord of all:) (37) That word, I say, ye know, which was published throughout all Judaea, and began from Galilee, after the baptism which John preached; (38) How God anointed Jesus of Nazareth with the Holy Ghost and with power: who went about doing good, and healing all that were oppressed of the devil; for God was with him. (39) And we are witnesses of all things which he did both in the land of the Jews, and in Jerusalem; whom they slew and hanged on a tree: (40) Him God raised up the third day, and shewed him openly; (41) Not to all the people, but unto witnesses chosen before of God, even to us, who did eat and drink with him after he rose from the dead. (42) And he commanded us to preach unto the people, and to testify that it is he which was ordained of God to be the Judge of quick and dead. (43) To him give all the prophets witness, that through his name whosoever believeth in him shall receive remission of sins. (44) While Peter yet spake these words, the Holy Ghost fell on all them which heard the word.
Do you think that you need to "worketh righteousness" to be accepted by God in this dispensation?

NOTE: Everything else preached by Peter there was exactly what was preached BEFORE. Nothing new at all.

Also NOTE: This event occurred AFTER God called Paul.

Yet they remained totally UNSUITED to be competent ministers of the gospel to the Gentiles. It was entirely necessary for God to raise up Paul.
This is a myth in need of some actual, factual support.

But look here if it happened at the cross then you cain't lop off the Jews. This is the very fine line with which I disagree with MAD, but it is MASSIVE.

I mean the Jewish church....MAD divides at the wrong place between the wrong people. They fail to understand that when Paul turned away from the Jews [not that he ever did in reality] to the Gentiles, it wasn't the Jewish church he was turning away from but the Jews of the synagogues, the Jewish nation, the Christ rejecting Jews.
I guess that you still only understand a caricature of MAD. Even many MAD's are confused about what MAD actually means.

When God separated Israel from the rest of the world as His people, Gentiles could still join with them. Now, in the dispensation of the grace of God, both Jew and Gentile can join together IN CHRIST without Israel. Either way, everyone can come to God on His terms.

As for the Christ accepting Jews we Gentiles are made one body with them, made fellow citizens of their commonwealth, co-heirs of their promises...yet without having to obey their commandments.
Why would anyone want to be joined to fallen Israel?

If you lop the Jews off then with whom are we made fellow citizens of the commonwealth? with whom are we made co-heirs? all the promises are made to THEM how can we cut them off?
Firstly, we don't "lop off the Jews" as you continually and FALSELY claim.

Secondly, we are joint-heirs WITH Christ and IN Christ.
Rom 8:16-17 KJV The Spirit itself beareth witness with our spirit, that we are the children of God: (17) And if children, then heirs; heirs of God, and joint-heirs with Christ; if so be that we suffer with him, that we may be also glorified together.
 

Totton Linnet

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You lop off the Jews, the WRONG Jews. God has laid aside the nation of Israel...He did not lay aside Peter James and John see, these are they whose commonwealth we are made fellow citizens with and co-heirs and partakers of their promises...yet without the law. We were made one body with them at the cross, but if you lop them off then with who are we one body with?

Cornelius was a Gentile, geography has nothing to do with it. Peter understood that in this new dispensation God was saving men IN ALL NATIONS, not just a few odd bods who lived down the road.

Who fear God and worketh righteousness. To reverence God and to do what He says is still as vital today as it ever was.

If God says only believe and be saved and if we reverence God then that is what we will do.

The commonwealth of Israel and the promises of God do not correspond to fallen Israel...Paul did not say we are fellow citizens with fallen Israel.

Yes joint heirs with Christ...He IS King of the Jews, the kingdom to come is His kingdom. Both the heavenly part to which we belong and the earthly part which will belong to the Jews.

NOT CHURCH JEWS....they's the body, the heavenly crowd, the Jews which at present do not believe....THEY are who will inherit the earth.

Do you see how narrow the line of division is? YOU say ALL Jews, I say, no, no not the Christ accepting Jews...they's church, they's the body of Christ.

Before Paul and after Paul
 

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You lop off the Jews, the WRONG Jews. God has laid aside the nation of Israel...He did not lay aside Peter James and John see, these are they whose commonwealth we are made fellow citizens with and co-heirs and partakers of their promises...yet without the law. We were made one body with them at the cross, but if you lop them off then with who are we one body with?
I get your point and I do not "lop off" the believer of Israel, like Peter, et al. But God still "concluded them all in unbelief", per Paul in Romans 11.

Cornelius was a Gentile, geography has nothing to do with it. Peter understood that in this new dispensation God was saving men IN ALL NATIONS, not just a few odd bods who lived down the road.
Where did I say "geography had something to do with it"?

No, Peter did NOT understand what God was going to do through Paul. This is why this instruction to go to Cornelius was in a VISION and Peter had to be told THREE times. This was not because Peter was stupid, but that God was CHANGING what He was doing.

Who fear God and worketh righteousness. To reverence God and to do what He says is still as vital today as it ever was.
Go ahead and ignore these details, if you like.

If God says only believe and be saved and if we reverence God then that is what we will do.
That is exactly what Paul says. That is NOT what Jesus taught Israel (including Peter and the eleven).

The commonwealth of Israel and the promises of God do not correspond to fallen Israel...Paul did not say we are fellow citizens with fallen Israel.
My point EXACTLY!

Yes joint heirs with Christ...He IS King of the Jews, the kingdom to come is His kingdom. Both the heavenly part to which we belong and the earthly part which will belong to the Jews.
I completely agree.
Eph 1:10 KJV That in the dispensation of the fulness of times he might gather together in one all things in Christ, both which are in heaven, and which are on earth; even in him:
Someday that will happen.

NOT CHURCH JEWS....they's the body, the heavenly crowd, the Jews which at present do not believe....THEY are who will inherit the earth.

Do you see how narrow the line of division is? YOU say ALL Jews, I say, no, no not the Christ accepting Jews...they's church, they's the body of Christ.

Before Paul and after Paul
You don't understand the MAD position. You're still beating up a straw-man.
Rom 11:30-33 KJV For as ye in times past have not believed God, yet have now obtained mercy through their unbelief: (31) Even so have these also now not believed, that through your mercy they also may obtain mercy. (32) For God hath concluded them all in unbelief, that he might have mercy upon all. (33) O the depth of the riches both of the wisdom and knowledge of God! how unsearchable are his judgments, and his ways past finding out!
 

Totton Linnet

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I said it is a whisker fine dividing line but the difference it makes as to which side you fall on has enormous consequences

God did not conclude all in unbelief, the Christ rejecting Jews, those He concluded [along with the world] in unbelief.

Peter and the others did NOT understand but through Cornelius God TAUGHT them and then they did understand. It became clear why God needed to raise up Paul with a special anointing to teach the Gentiles and he IS our apostle.

But if you lump the believing Jews with the unbelieving Jews it is division too far, the believing Jews are church, the body of Christ.

It is obvious that since they divided labours between Paul and the others that the Jewish only church would wane but the church of Jew + Gentile would grow until that was the only church....that still does not designate this waning church as unbelievers.

That is my position
 

Danoh

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Your position, Totten.

Just as RD and I differ somewhat as to the following to you by him...

I guess that you still only understand a caricature of MAD. Even many MAD's are confused about what MAD actually means.

When God separated Israel from the rest of the world as His people, Gentiles could still join with them. Now, in the dispensation of the grace of God, both Jew and Gentile can join together IN CHRIST without Israel. Either way, everyone can come to God on His terms.

Personally, whether I hold a same view with someone or not; I find ALL sides a fascinating study in how perception works, in general.

It is why we each differ on some points, at times.

Where we are each actually approaching our perception of a thing from, in contrast to where we each conclude we are approaching said perception of said thing from.

Been fascinated with that all my life. Love it!
 

Totton Linnet

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Your position, Totten.

Just as RD and I differ somewhat as to the following to you by him...



Personally, whether I hold a same view with someone or not; I find ALL sides a fascinating study in how perception works, in general.

It is why we each differ on some points, at times.

Where we are each actually approaching our perception of a thing from, in contrast to where we each conclude we are approaching said perception of said thing from.

Been fascinated with that all my life. Love it!

It is not a caricature, where I differ from you is in that I draw a sharp divide between believing Jew and Christ rejecting Jew.

I totally UNDERSTAND that MADianites do not regard the believing Jew quite the same as the unbelieving Jew, yet still they make a divide there between believing Jews and the church.

Not only is there no division but there positively must be no division....that is exactly what Paul was getting so het up about.

He was not angry that Cephas joined with the Gentiles at Antioch he was angry when Cephas suddenly gathered up his frock and separated from the Gentiles.
 

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I said it is a whisker fine dividing line but the difference it makes as to which side you fall on has enormous consequences

God did not conclude all in unbelief, the Christ rejecting Jews, those He concluded [along with the world] in unbelief.
I'm not saying that everyone was an unbeliever, I'm just quoting the Word of God that says:
Rom 11:32 KJV For God hath concluded them all in unbelief, that he might have mercy upon all.
No doubt that this is a generalization, but what it means is that Both Jews and Gentiles failed to meet God's demands for obedience and THIS is when He revealed His greatest mercy, which is the gospel of the grace of God.

Peter and the others did NOT understand but through Cornelius God TAUGHT them and then they did understand. It became clear why God needed to raise up Paul with a special anointing to teach the Gentiles and he IS our apostle.
Cornelius was NOT the model/pattern for the gospel of the grace of God; Paul was.

Cornelius was a Gentile that blessed Israel.
Act 10:2 KJV A devout man, and one that feared God with all his house, which gave much alms to the people, and prayed to God alway.
Who do you think "the people" are there?

Peter was not so ignorant as people continue to try to make him. He was following what Jesus has told him to do. God was making a CHANGE and that is what Peter did not understand.

Note that Peter did NOT teach Cornelius or his family anything new here. It was ALL what John the B and Jesus had said before.

But if you lump the believing Jews with the unbelieving Jews it is division too far, the believing Jews are church, the body of Christ.
The body of Christ has NEITHER Jews NOR Gentiles (Gal 3:28).

Once again, you misunderstand what is meant by "He concluded all in unbelief".

It is obvious that since they divided labours between Paul and the others that the Jewish only church would wane but the church of Jew + Gentile would grow until that was the only church....that still does not designate this waning church as unbelievers.

That is my position
I did NOT say that they were unbelievers, only that God "had concluded them all in unbelief, that He MIGHT HAVE MERCY ON ALL".
Gal 3:28 KJV There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus.
 

Danoh

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Paul was still in short pants when God made of twain one new man, one body at the cross.

But you say they were still twain

Might as well confuse the Lord's death some two thousand years ago, with the sense of "slain before the foundation of the world."
 
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