Theology Club: Departure cannot possibly mean the removal of the church

[Totton Linnet]

John Nelson Darby was a Dispy but he was not a Mid acts dispy. Certainly he was not the father of it.

He is however the modern day father of the pre-trib rapture, it did not originate with him, it originated with the Irvingites. Having failed to get his doctrine past the British theologians Darby took it to America where it took off like a rocket.

He did a sleight of hand.

He took the meaning of "departure" in 2nd Thess. and changed it from rebellion which had been the unanimously accepted meaning and gave it a new meaning "departure" as in "removal" i.e. the removal of the church.

This makes IMPOSSIBLE grammar. For Paul now says this

"Brethren concerning the coming of the Lord Jesus Christ and our meeting Him in the clouds I beseech you etc....

....that day cannot come unless first there has come a departure...."

So Paul according to Darby is saying

Brethren...concerning the rapture, that day cannot come until first there has come a rapture.

See how impossible that is?

 

[SaulToPaul 2]

I believe in a pre trib rapture, but I agree with you on this verse.

:jawdrop:

 

[DAN P]

John Nelson Darby was a Dispy but he was not a Mid acts dispy. Certainly he was not the father of it.

He is however the modern day father of the pre-trib rapture, it did not originate with him, it originated with the Irvingites. Having failed to get his doctrine past the British theologians Darby took it to America where it took off like a rocket.

He did a sleight of hand.

He took the meaning of "departure" in 2nd Thess. and changed it from rebellion which had been the unanimously accepted meaning and gave it a new meaning "departure" as in "removal" i.e. the removal of the church.

This makes IMPOSSIBLE grammar. For Paul now says this

"Brethren concerning the coming of the Lord Jesus Christ and our meeting Him in the clouds I beseech you etc....

....that day cannot come unless first there has come a departure...."

So Paul according to Darby is saying

Brethren...concerning the rapture, that day cannot come until first there has come a rapture.

See how impossible that is?

Hi and just where is there a Greek word for " RAPTURE " ??

There isn't !!

The verses in 2 Thess 2:1-3 speak to Christ " COMING " !!


DAN P

 

[Totton Linnet]

Hi and just where is there a Greek word for " RAPTURE " ??

There isn't !!

The verses in 2 Thess 2:1-3 speak to Christ " COMING " !!


DAN P

...and our going

 

[steko]

I believe in a pre trib rapture, but I agree with you on this verse.

:jawdrop:

Me, too!

Hi and just where is there a Greek word for " RAPTURE " ??

There isn't !!

The verses in 2 Thess 2:1-3 speak to Christ " COMING " !!


DAN P

Greek- harpazo - caught up, seized, snatched

Latin- rapeirme- rapto- transliterated to English- rapture

 

[Totton Linnet]

Me, too!



Greek- harpazo - caught up, seized, snatched

Latin- rapeirme- rapto- transliterated to English- rapture

Why?

Jesus was a post tribber

"after the tribulation of those days they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds ...He will send out His holy angels to gather the elect...."

That is 2.Thess.2.

 

[steko]

Why?

Jesus was a post tribber

"after the tribulation of those days they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds ...He will send out His holy angels to gather the elect...."

That is 2.Thess.2.

This is my very studied opinion.
You suit yourself but this is how I see it.
My use of brackets is not meant to correct or add to Scripture but to insert my opinion as to what I understand the terms to mean.
Matthew 24 is spoken in harmony with what the OT prophets say concerning the regathering of Israel back to the land and the restoration of the Davidic Messianic Kingdom to Israel.
Note: Angels regather Israel per Mt 24:31 back to the land......the 'Lord Himself' gathers the Body of Christ per 1Th 4:16 to meet Him in the air.
Mt 24 is OT harmonious prophecy concerning Israel and the land.
Paul gives new information concerning the Body of Christ who are citizens of heaven.


Mat 24:30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the[twelve] tribes of the earth[land] mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.
Mat 24:31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect[scattered Israel] from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

 

[DAN P]

Me, too!



Greek- harpazo - caught up, seized, snatched

Latin- rapeirme- rapto- transliterated to English- rapture

Hi and the bible is written in Greek and NOT IN Latin .

The Greek word APOSTASIA is not the word APOSTASY and is a Transliterated word and one meaning is the English word DEPARTURE !


In 2 Thess 2:1 the Greek words PAROUIA speaks of our Lord's COMING for His Body , is the CONTEXT !!

DAN P

 

[Right Divider]

Hi and the bible is written in Greek and NOT IN Latin .

The Greek word APOSTASIA is not the word APOSTASY and is a Transliterated word and one meaning is the English word DEPARTURE !


In 2 Thess 2:1 the Greek words PAROUIA speaks of our Lord's COMING for His Body , is the CONTEXT !!

DAN P

Steko is likely referring to the Latin Vulgate.

 

[musterion]

John Nelson Darby was a Dispy but he was not a Mid acts dispy. Certainly he was not the father of it.

He is however the modern day father of the pre-trib rapture, it did not originate with him, it originated with the Irvingites. Having failed to get his doctrine past the British theologians Darby took it to America where it took off like a rocket.

He did a sleight of hand.

He took the meaning of "departure" in 2nd Thess. and changed it from rebellion which had been the unanimously accepted meaning and gave it a new meaning "departure" as in "removal" i.e. the removal of the church.

This makes IMPOSSIBLE grammar. For Paul now says this

"Brethren concerning the coming of the Lord Jesus Christ and our meeting Him in the clouds I beseech you etc....

....that day cannot come unless first there has come a departure...."

So Paul according to Darby is saying

Brethren...concerning the rapture, that day cannot come until first there has come a rapture.

See how impossible that is?

There was already rebellion (or doctrinal defection, apostasy in our modern usage, or the KJ "falling away") from the Pauline revelation while he was still alive, and he warned it'd only get worse.

Yet this "departure" is set forth here as something very distinctive and unique, which doctrinal apostasy was not...Paul's indictments of Hymenaeus, Philetus, Alexander among others prove this.

Don't just tell us what this apostasia isn't...tell us what it is. Tell us what exactly is it will be and how those who see it will know what it means?

 

[DAN P]

Steko is likely referring to the Latin Vulgate.

Hi and I knew that , thanks !

dan p

 

[DAN P]

There was already rebellion (or doctrinal defection, apostasy in our modern usage, or the KJ "falling away") from the Pauline revelation while he was still alive, and he warned it'd only get worse.

Yet this "departure" is set forth here as something very distinctive and unique, which doctrinal apostasy was not...Paul's indictments of Hymenaeus, Philetus, Alexander among others prove this.

Don't just tell us what this apostasia isn't...tell us what it is. Tell us what exactly is it will be and how those who see it will know what it means?

Hi and good job , and read that one of the first translation used the word DEPARTURE for the Greek word " falling away " APOSTASIA THEN the KJV changed it to " falling away " that caused confusion !!

dan p

 

[patrick jane]

See how impossible that is?

Like speaking in tongues :duh:

 

[musterion]

646 apostasía (from 868 /aphístēmi, "leave, depart," which is derived from 575 /apó, "away from" and 2476 /histémi, "stand") – properly, departure (implying desertion); apostasy – literally, "a leaving, from a previous standing."

If the word most literally (in English) means "departure" or "a standing away from" (I don't see the need to agree with Strong's implied 'desertion' though it may be valid), then the question is, "Departure/standing away (a) of whom or what (b) from what?" That's what I want someone to explain.

 

[Totton Linnet]

It is the final rebellion, revealing the man of sin, who

Opposes everything called God, that will mean persecution, the GREAT persecution or the great tribulation which Christ speaks about.

He will sit in the temple declaring that he himself is God....now watch this

Christ comes at the end of his career not the beginning. Ac will only sit in the temple when he thinks he has finally put down all other religions.

 

[Totton Linnet]

If the word most literally (in English) means "departure" or "a standing away from" (I don't see the need to agree with Strong's implied 'desertion' though it may be valid), then the question is, "Departure/standing away (a) of whom or what (b) from what?" That's what I want someone to explain.

It will be the throwing off of the law...revealing the man of lawlessness, rebellion against all religious constraint.

 

[musterion]

In Acts 21:21, the KJ translates it "forsake." They were accused of teaching Jews to "stand away" from Moses. I have no problem seeing this as God removing the Restrainer, Who will in some sense stand away from or depart, at the end of this dispensation of grace.

 

[patrick jane]

2 Thessalonians 2:3 KJV - 2 Thessalonians 2:3 NIV - 2 Thessalonians 2:3 ASV

Says nothing about the "removal" of the church

 

[musterion]

It is the final rebellion, revealing the man of sin, who

Opposes everything called God, that will mean persecution, the GREAT persecution or the great tribulation which Christ speaks about.

He will sit in the temple declaring that he himself is God....now watch this

Christ comes at the end of his career not the beginning. Ac will only sit in the temple when he thinks he has finally put down all other religions.

Problem:

As C.R. Stam used to put it, that will be a time of God's undiluted WRATH.

The Body of Christ is not appointed to wrath, and that is the very context we're discussing.

 

[Totton Linnet]

Problem:

As C.R. Stam used to put it, that will be a time of God's undiluted WRATH.

The Body of Christ is not appointed to wrath, and that is the very context we're discussing.

It is not God's wrath, not until He comes....when He comes we are gathered and Israel is gathered in the land and God's wrath will be poured upon the nations which came up with Antichrist.

That is why Israel has been [and will yet be] gathered and why we will be gathered.


....it happens at the end of Ac's career, not the beginning.