Theology Club: both in one Body by the cross

[heir]

It's interesting how Paul emphasizes "flesh" in this passage.

11Wherefore remember, that ye in time past Gentiles in the flesh, who are called Uncircumcision by that which is called the Circumcision in the flesh made by hands; 12That at that time ye were without Christ, being aliens from the commonwealth of Israel, and strangers from the covenants of promise, having no hope, and without God in the world: 13But now in Christ Jesus ye who sometimes were far off are made nigh by the blood of Christ. 14For he is our peace, who hath made both one, and hath broken down the middle wall of partition; 15Having abolished in His flesh the enmity, the law of commandments in ordinances; for to make in himself of twain one new man, making peace; 16And that he might reconcile both unto God in one body by the cross, having slain the enmity thereby: 17And came and preached peace to you which were afar off, and to them that were nigh. 18For through him we both have access by one Spirit unto the Father.

Being uncircumcized had excluded Gentiles "in time past," long before the Law was given. Or more accurately, circumcision set Abraham's offspring apart from everyone else and was itself a wall or barrier between them.

It's also interesting to note that these Gentiles needed to be told they were called the Uncircumcision (capitalized) by that which was called the Circumcision! You wouldn't have had to tell the Greeks going to the synagogue of the Jews seeking a blessing what they were called.

 

[heir]

I also find it curious that the mention of Abraham is completely void in the epistle to the Ephesians or Colossians. :think:

Let's face it, folks. These Gentiles had NO IDEA about who Abraham was or the promise attached to blessing Israel. They were worshiping the goddess Diana all the way into the time of Acts 19!

 

[Danoh]

I also find it curious that the mention of Abraham is completely void in the epistle to the Ephesians or Colossians. :think:

Let's face it, folks. These Gentiles had NO IDEA about who Abraham was or the promise attached to blessing Israel. They were worshiping the goddess Diana all the way into the time of Acts 19!

So what - Paul also does not mention Abraham in 1st and 2 Thessalonians, nor in 1 Corinthians - all of which were written WAY before this two gospels of Paul understanding you assert.

And your reading skills also suffer in Ephesians 2 - not only as to what the middle wall of partition is a reference to, but also, he mentions what he mentions about Israel as if he expects they know what he is talking about.

Fact is, there were synagogues (awareness of Abraham) at Ephesus WAY before Paul was even born.

This is where Interplanner's (over) reliance on history is actually helpful in some of these things.

But, absent of that...

Acts 18:19 And he came to Ephesus, and left them there: but he himself entered into the synagogue, and reasoned with the Jews.

Acts 18:24 And a certain Jew named Apollos, born at Alexandria, an eloquent man, and mighty in the scriptures, came to Ephesus. 18:25 This man was instructed in the way of the Lord; and being fervent in the spirit, he spake and taught diligently the things of the Lord, knowing only the baptism of John. 18:26 And he began to speak boldly in the synagogue: whom when Aquila and Priscilla had heard, they took him unto them, and expounded unto him the way of God more perfectly.

Acts 19:1 And it came to pass, that, while Apollos was at Corinth, Paul having passed through the upper coasts came to Ephesus: and finding certain disciples,

Acts 19:7 And all the men were about twelve.

Acts 19:8 And he went into the synagogue, and spake boldly for the space of three months, disputing and persuading the things concerning the kingdom of God. 19:9 But when divers were hardened, and believed not, but spake evil of that way before the multitude, he departed from them, and separated the disciples, disputing daily in the school of one Tyrannus. 19:10 And this continued by the space of two years; so that all they which dwelt in Asia heard the word of the Lord Jesus, both Jews and Greeks.

Acts 19:17 And this was known to all the Jews and Greeks also dwelling at Ephesus; and fear fell on them all, and the name of the Lord Jesus was magnified.

Nope, heir; I greatly admire your passion for your cause...but - they did not need Paul to come along and tell them about what they had obviously known about - Abraham; Circumcision; UNcircumcision; the Commonwealth of Israel, etc.

What about Ephesians 4, where it appears the gifts this supposed new part of the Body has, had been prophesied.

Ephesians 4:8 Wherefore he saith, When he ascended up on high, he led captivity captive, and gave gifts unto men.

Psalms 68:18 Thou hast ascended on high, thou hast led captivity captive: thou hast received gifts for men; yea, for the rebellious also, that the LORD God might dwell among them.

No, sis, Paul is still quoting the OT for the reason I have already cited - not as some sort of an evidence some aspect of the Mystery was hidden in the OT.

You can't have it that way in his earlier writings and then ignore said off-base conclusion when ever he quotes the OT and or alludes to it in his later writings...

As for the Middle Wall of Partition; it is another term used by Paul as if he expects they will know what he is referring to.

What was it?

Ephesians 2:13 But now in Christ Jesus ye who sometimes were far off are made nigh by the blood of Christ. 2:14 For he is our peace, who hath made both one, and hath broken down the middle wall of partition between us; 2:15 Having abolished in his flesh the enmity, even the law of commandments contained in ordinances; for to make in himself of twain one new man, so making peace; 2:16 And that he might reconcile both unto God in one body by the cross, having slain the enmity thereby:

Colossians 2:14 Blotting out the handwriting of ordinances that was against us, which was contrary to us, and took it out of the way, nailing it to his cross;

Just what was it that "them that were nigh" - Israel - had over the Gentiles?

Deuteronomy 4:5 Behold, I have taught you statutes and judgments, even as the LORD my God commanded me, that ye should do so in the land whither ye go to possess it. 4:6 Keep therefore and do them; for this is your wisdom and your understanding in the sight of the nations, which shall hear all these statutes, and say, Surely this great nation is a wise and understanding people. 4:7 For what nation is there so great, who hath God so nigh unto them, as the LORD our God is in all things that we call upon him for? 4:8 And what nation is there so great, that hath statutes and judgments so righteous as all this law, which I set before you this day?

Romans 3:1 What advantage then hath the Jew? or what profit is there of circumcision? 3:2 Much every way: chiefly, because that unto them were committed the oracles of God.

Romans 3:19 Now we know that what things soever the law saith, it saith to them who are under the law: that every mouth may be stopped, and all the world may become guilty before God. 3:20 Therefore by the deeds of the law there shall no flesh be justified in his sight: for by the law is the knowledge of sin. 3:21 But now the righteousness of God without the law is manifested, being witnessed by the law and the prophets; 3:22 Even the righteousness of God which is by faith of Jesus Christ unto all and upon all them that believe: for there is no difference: 3:23 For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God;

Ephesians 2's "But now" is Romans 3's "But now."

Just as Ephesians 3's...

3:1 For this cause I Paul, the prisoner of Jesus Christ for you Gentiles, 3:2 If ye have heard of the dispensation of the grace of God which is given me to you-ward:

Is Romans 15's...

15:15 Nevertheless, brethren, I have written the more boldly unto you in some sort, as putting you in mind, because of the grace that is given to me of God, 15:16 That I should be the minister of Jesus Christ to the Gentiles, ministering the gospel of God, that the offering up of the Gentiles might be acceptable, being sanctified by the Holy Ghost.

It was how he ended up a "prisoner of Jesus Christ for you Gentiles..."

Acts 22:21 And he said unto me, Depart: for I will send thee far hence unto the Gentiles. 22:22 And they gave him audience unto this word, and then lifted up their voices, and said, Away with such a fellow from the earth: for it is not fit that he should live. 22:23 And as they cried out, and cast off their clothes, and threw dust into the air, 22:24 The chief captain commanded him to be brought into the castle, and bade that he should be examined by scourging; that he might know wherefore they cried so against him. 22:25 And as they bound him with thongs, Paul said unto the centurion that stood by, Is it lawful for you to scourge a man that is a Roman, and uncondemned?

I told STP this would take a lot of passages, so hang their heir, I just may throw in the towel and leave you to your view :chuckle:

 

[Danoh]

It's interesting how Paul emphasizes "flesh..."

Being uncircumcized had excluded Gentiles "in time past," long before the Law was given. Or more accurately, circumcision set Abraham's offspring apart from everyone else and was itself a wall or barrier between them.

Not necessarily- other cultures were also practicing Circumcision.

 

[musterion]

Not necessarily- other cultures were also practicing Circumcision.

Come on, now. Not at God's command to be a people wholly separated unto Him.

 

[Danoh]

Come on, now. Not at God's command to be a people wholly separated unto Him.

Lol - relax, Must; I wasn't saying that.

There were other - rival - systems of beliefs and worship before Abraham - he himself was in fact called out and separated from one.

 

[SaulToPaul 2]

I don't think so. The middle wall of partition is strictly a Pauline term. It didn't even exist until Acts 15.

:up:

Acts 15
19 Wherefore my sentence is, that we trouble not them, which from among the Gentiles are turned to God:

20 But that we write unto them, that they abstain from pollutions of idols, and from fornication, and from things strangled, and from blood.


1 Cor 11
11 Be ye followers of me, even as I also am of Christ.

2 Now I praise you, brethren, that ye remember me in all things, and keep the ordinances, as I delivered them to you.

 

[heir]

So what - Paul also does not mention Abraham in 1st and 2 Thessalonians, nor in 1 Corinthians - all of which were written WAY before this two gospels of Paul understanding you assert.

So they knew nothing about him or the covenants of promise as: they in time past had no hope and were without God in the world being aliens from the commonwealth of Israel and strangers from the covenants of promise. That's what saith the scripture!

Ephesians 2:11 Wherefore remember, that ye being in time past Gentiles in the flesh, who are called Uncircumcision by that which is called the Circumcision in the flesh made by hands;

Ephesians 2:12 That at that time ye were without Christ, being aliens from the commonwealth of Israel, and strangers from the covenants of promise, having no hope, and without God in the world:

And your reading skills also suffer in Ephesians 2 - not only as to what the middle wall of partition is a reference to, but also, he mentions what he mentions about Israel as if he expects they know what he is talking about.

I showed by the scripture what the middle wall was. You reject it. Why were certain Gentiles to whom Paul was sent under the handwriting of ordinances? Are we? Why or why not?

Fact is, there were synagogues (awareness of Abraham) at Ephesus WAY before Paul was even born.

Yes, and here comes your failure to rightly divide the word of truth.

This is where Interplanner's (over) reliance on history is actually helpful in some of these things.

But, absent of that...

Acts 18:19 And he came to Ephesus, and left them there: but he himself entered into the synagogue, and reasoned with the Jews.

Acts 18:24 And a certain Jew named Apollos, born at Alexandria, an eloquent man, and mighty in the scriptures, came to Ephesus. 18:25 This man was instructed in the way of the Lord; and being fervent in the spirit, he spake and taught diligently the things of the Lord, knowing only the baptism of John. 18:26 And he began to speak boldly in the synagogue: whom when Aquila and Priscilla had heard, they took him unto them, and expounded unto him the way of God more perfectly.

Acts 19:1 And it came to pass, that, while Apollos was at Corinth, Paul having passed through the upper coasts came to Ephesus: and finding certain disciples,

Acts 19:7 And all the men were about twelve.

Acts 19:8 And he went into the synagogue, and spake boldly for the space of three months, disputing and persuading the things concerning the kingdom of God. 19:9 But when divers were hardened, and believed not, but spake evil of that way before the multitude, he departed from them, and separated the disciples, disputing daily in the school of one Tyrannus. 19:10 And this continued by the space of two years; so that all they which dwelt in Asia heard the word of the Lord Jesus, both Jews and Greeks.

Acts 19:17 And this was known to all the Jews and Greeks also dwelling at Ephesus; and fear fell on them all, and the name of the Lord Jesus was magnified.

Who does it say were in the synagogues of the Jews? Answer: Jews and Greeks. So we can say and know that Paul would get to know the Gentiles (Greeks) to whom he preached at Ephesus (Acts 19:1 KJV) in the synagogues of the Jews for three months (Acts 19:8 KJV) and "when divers were hardened" he then taught them (Jews and Greeks) in the school of one Tyrannus (Acts 19:9 KJV) for two years (Acts 19:10 KJV).

But Paul did NOT know the Ephesians to whom he wrote the letter! He had only HEARD OF THEIR FAITH!

Ephesians 1:15 Wherefore I also, after I heard of your faith in the Lord Jesus, and love unto all the saints,

Ephesians 1:16 Cease not to give thanks for you, making mention of you in my prayers;

What about Ephesians 4, where it appears the gifts this supposed new part of the Body has, had been prophesied.

Ephesians 4:8 Wherefore he saith, When he ascended up on high, he led captivity captive, and gave gifts unto men.


Psalms 68:18 Thou hast ascended on high, thou hast led captivity captive: thou hast received gifts for men; yea, for the rebellious also, that the LORD God might dwell among them.

The gifts unto men in Ephesians 4 are:
Ephesians 4:11 And he gave some, apostles; and some, prophets; and some, evangelists; and some, pastors and teachers;

Ephesians 4:12 For the perfecting of the saints, for the work of the ministry, for the edifying of the body of Christ:

Ephesians 4:13 Till we all come in the unity of the faith, and of the knowledge of the Son of God, unto a perfect man, unto the measure of the stature of the fulness of Christ:

No, sis, Paul is still quoting the OT for the reason I have already cited - not as some sort of an evidence some aspect of the Mystery was hidden in the OT.

unsearchable (Ephesians 3:8 KJV/hid in God Ephesians 3:9 KJV

You can't have it that way in his earlier writings and then ignore said off-base conclusion when ever he quotes the OT and or alludes to it in his later writings...

Paul often made application of prophecy in his Acts ministry to validate his going to blessers, but could not to show cursed Gentiles they had hope back there. What he revealed to the Ephesians to whom he wrote the letter was mystery revealed "by the Spirit" (Ephesians 3:5 KJV) not mystery "according to the scriptures"!

As for the Middle Wall of Partition; it is another term used by Paul as if he expects they will know what he is referring to.

No. He tells them that they now had hope because God blotted out the handwriting of ordinances,...nailing it to His cross as before it was against them and contrary to them. You cannot show where it was removed before Paul's prison epistles, but go ahead and keep talking yourself out of the truth. I'd much rather spend my time making all men see with those who want to hear it.

 

[Danoh]

No problem, heir; I was not out to convince you of what I see about those things differently. Was just wanting to compare our different understanding about them.

I am well aware of how set In yours you are.

Likewise with me on my end.

We differ. It is what it is.

 

[Danoh]

:up:

Acts 15
19 Wherefore my sentence is, that we trouble not them, which from among the Gentiles are turned to God:

20 But that we write unto them, that they abstain from pollutions of idols, and from fornication, and from things strangled, and from blood.


1 Cor 11
11 Be ye followers of me, even as I also am of Christ.

2 Now I praise you, brethren, that ye remember me in all things, and keep the ordinances, as I delivered them to you.

To me, that comes accross as more of your usual, first impression, surface level reading of those passages.

It is what it is - each of use where we are in our respective level of understanding - it is what it is.

 

[heir]

No problem, heir; I was not out to convince you of what I see about those things differently. Was just wanting to compare our different understanding about them.

I am well aware of how set In yours you are.

Likewise with me on my end.

We differ. It is what it is.

You can admit that there is a difference between Greeks (blessers) who Paul knew and found in the synagogue of the Jews and Gentiles to whom Paul had only heard of their faith. Can't you? I made a good case proving it. And answering the questions I posed would be good too.

 

[heir]

To me, that comes accross as more of your usual, first impression, surface level reading of those passages.

It is what it is - each of use where we are in our respective level of understanding - it is what it is.

snide remarks as usual

 

[Danoh]

You can admit that there is a difference between Greeks (blessers) who Paul knew and found in the synagogue of the Jews and Gentiles to whom Paul had only heard of their faith. Can't you? I made a good case proving it. And answering the questions I posed would be good too.

No, I do not hold to a difference between them in that. Throughout Paul's letters he writes of having received word of how people are doing.

That passage in Ephesians is too vague by itself as to that to conclude from it that Paul did not know them.

The evidence points to the opposite of that..

Acts 19:15 And the evil spirit answered and said, Jesus I know, and Paul I know; but who are ye? 19:16 And the man in whom the evil spirit was leaped on them, and overcame them, and prevailed against them, so that they fled out of that house naked and wounded. 19:17 And this was known to all the Jews and Greeks also dwelling at Ephesus; and fear fell on them all, and the name of the Lord Jesus was magnified. 19:18 And many that believed came, and confessed, and shewed their deeds. 19:19 Many of them also which used curious arts brought their books together, and burned them before all men: and they counted the price of them, and found it fifty thousand pieces of silver. 19:20 So mightily grew the word of God and prevailed.

Looks to me like they knew Paul.

Acts 19:10 And this continued by the space of two years; so that all they which dwelt in Asia heard the word of the Lord Jesus, both Jews and Greeks. 19:11 And God wrought special miracles by the hands of Paul:

Yep.

Acts 19:26 Moreover ye see and hear, that not alone at Ephesus, but almost throughout all Asia, this Paul hath persuaded and turned away much people, saying that they be no gods, which are made with hands:

Yep, they knew him.

Acts 19:29 And the whole city was filled with confusion: and having caught Gaius and Aristarchus, men of Macedonia, Paul's companions in travel, they rushed with one accord into the theatre. 19:30 And when Paul would have entered in unto the people, the disciples suffered him not.

Acts 20:17 And from Miletus he sent to Ephesus, and called the elders of the church. 20:18 And when they were come to him, he said unto them, Ye know, from the first day that I came into Asia, after what manner I have been with you at all seasons, 20:19 Serving the LORD with all humility of mind, and with many tears, and temptations, which befell me by the lying in wait of the Jews: 20:20 And how I kept back nothing that was profitable unto you, but have shewed you, and have taught you publickly, and from house to house, 20:21 Testifying both to the Jews, and also to the Greeks, repentance toward God, and faith toward our Lord Jesus Christ.

Acts 20:27 For I have not shunned to declare unto you all the counsel of God. 20:28 Take heed therefore unto yourselves, and to all the flock, over the which the Holy Ghost hath made you overseers, to feed the church of God, which he hath purchased with his own blood. 20:29 For I know this, that after my departing shall grievous wolves enter in among you, not sparing the flock. 20:30 Also of your own selves shall men arise, speaking perverse things, to draw away disciples after them. 20:31 Therefore watch, and remember, that by the space of three years I ceased not to warn every one night and day with tears. 20:32 And now, brethren, I commend you to God, and to the word of his grace, which is able to build you up, and to give you an inheritance among all them which are sanctified.

There is what's behind Paul's later relating to them of his having heard of their faith - he'd left them concerned about how they would fare without him.

Paul lets them know he has been praying for them...

Ephesians 1:3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who hath blessed us with all spiritual blessings in heavenly places in Christ:

To that he adds...

1:15 Wherefore I also, after I heard of your faith in the Lord Jesus, and love unto all the saints, 1:16 Cease not to give thanks for you, making mention of you in my prayers;

He then goes into what said additional aspect of his praying for them has consisted of - the same "word of his grace" edification concern for them that he mentioned to them when he left them...

Ephesians 1:17 That the God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Father of glory, may give unto you the spirit of wisdom and revelation in the knowledge of him: 1:18 The eyes of your understanding being enlightened; that ye may know what is the hope of his calling, and what the riches of the glory of his inheritance in the saints, 1:19 And what is the exceeding greatness of his power to us-ward who believe, according to the working of his mighty power,

As for the other issues you raised; I already addressed them in the earlier post; let me know what was not clear.

 

[Danoh]

snide remarks as usual

I'm not trying to be snide by that. That is your projection into my words.

I was relating my impression from your assertions of how you arrived at them.

Quit reading your curtness into another's words - such is not my intent.

 

[heir]

No, I do not hold to a difference between them in that. Throughout Paul's letters he writes of having received word of how people are doing.

Things that are different are not the same! Those to whom Paul taught in the synagogue of the Jews and one school of Tyrannus (“Jews and Greeks”-which leaves an entire group of Gentiles OUT) are not the same Gentiles that Paul had only heard of their faith. So simple to see and acknowledge and yet…there you are denying it.

And can you please answer :

Why were certain Gentiles to whom Paul was sent under the handwriting of ordinances? Are we? Why or why not?

 

[heir]

I'm not trying to be snide by that. That is your projection into my words.

I was relating my impression from your assertions of how you arrived at them.

Quit reading your curtness into another's words - such is not my intent.

You said it to Bro. SaulToPaul not me.

To me, that comes accross as more of your usual, first impression, surface level reading of those passages.

It is what it is - each of use where we are in our respective level of understanding - it is what it is.

You say things like that often and I can see you mean it in a derogatory manner. Of course you won't admit that either. You're in denial.

 

[Danoh]

heir, I am only making an observation about what your assertions reveal to me about your study method.

I am forever going on about tracing the origin of a thing back to said origin through studying out what its recurrent patterns point back to.

I am relating an objective observation.

In fact, I am well aware of my own need to ever strive to be careful to look at how I myself approach studying a thing out.

I am well aware of my own failings in that, at times.

Twice, I have begun to agree with you and STP on a view you hold only to find I only had because I had allowed myself to move away from key principles that have always held sound - to me.

I am well aware that sounds derogatory. But that is not my intent.

My intent is where is the objectivity in this or that conclusion - have I followed the principles in this?

We differ in what those principles are.

That does not mean I am looking down my nose at you - I greatly admire your zeal - my own mom was like that when I was coming up. I can still see her giving the JWs their well deserved what for, lol

You and I just don't know one another. As a result, we are bound to misinterpret our words to one another at some point or another.

Heck, even people who know each other well still end up doing that every now and then.

The thing is to approach posts (from people who are essentially strangers) from the same kind of non personal attachment to bias we each hope we are approaching the Scriptures from.

My apologies for any offense my intended objectivity may have met with on your end of the equation.

I'm sure it won't be the last - on either of our parts.

 

[Danoh]

Things that are different are not the same! Those to whom Paul taught in the synagogue of the Jews and one school of Tyrannus (“Jews and Greeks”-which leaves an entire group of Gentiles OUT) are not the same Gentiles that Paul had only heard of their faith. So simple to see and acknowledge and yet…there you are denying it.

And can you please answer :

Why were certain Gentiles to whom Paul was sent under the handwriting of ordinances? Are we? Why or why not?

Define "ordinances" (there is more than one sense of that word).

 

[patrick jane]

Define "ordinances" (there is more than one sense of that word).

Colossians 2:14 KJV - Ephesians 2:15 KJV -

 

[Danoh]

Can't just go by a passage or two, PJ...

Study out the words "doings" "ways" and "ordinances."

In the KJV.

Here are some principles I have found over time that hold as being reliable practices - and in this, can be said to be, in one sense of the word in question, "ordinances" worth practicing...

Often, you will find the intended sense of a word, not only by how it is being used and where it is being used in contrast to how it is found being used elsewhere, but also, by other words used either within the same passage and or another passage in which the same subject is being addressed.

Another principle I have found highly helpful - how words have been translated in the KJV.

For example, in 1 Corinthians 12:11 and 2 Timothy 2:15 the KJV translates a word with the same English word that differs in word, in the Greek in both passages.

In both passages, it uses the same ENGLISH sense of the word "dividing."

What that is, is the KJV's OWN English; the result of its translation of the Greek.

This ends up acting as a built-in dictionary - it allows seeing the SAME ENGLISH SENSE of two DIFFERENT words that, in the Greek, are neverthelesss, the SAME sense.

So...

1) Look for other words within a same or similar passage, also;

2) Contrast different uses of a same word, and;

3) Consider same words in English that might differ in the Greek and or the Hebrew as a different word in each and yet they carry the same meaning.

You could refer to those as my "doings" "ordinances" or "ways which be in Christ."