Jefferson and I met these guys at the county fair a few weeks ago.
Theology Club: Grace Revealed - From Grace Ambassadors Ministry Update -
- Thread starter patrick jane
- Start date
What did you think? Did you meet Justin? Their Church is in Indiana.
Is he the pastor? If so, yes. It's cool they're A9D, but they're not OV, so I was upset at that.
Lol
Still, there's really no need to be "upset at" such different understandings...
Not if we'll view a different understanding on one thing or another as an opportunity to not only further reflect on things; but to be challenged by where another sees a thing, to reflect on things a bit even further.
This that I have just described had been the very spirit or heart attitude that had allowed the late, great J.C. O'Hair to recover as much as he had been able to.
Though the great man obviously turned out not the last word on various things; he did turn out the last word on where to approach different understandings from.
We would all do well to follow his fine, fine example in this...
The less we conclude we see more than another; the more we are than free to actually see...as is...
[h=1]GRACE AMBASSADORS
MINISTRY UPDATE[/h]
August 27th, 2016
[h=2]Are You a Lost Sheep?[/h]The Bible is filled with language that pictures God's people as sheep and the LORD as their shepherd. This is the most famous is in Psalm 23. But are you a lost sheep? The answer may surprise you. MINISTRY UPDATE[/h]
August 27th, 2016
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[h=2]Showing Grace Toward Others[/h]As ministers of God's grace in Christ toward others, it is imperative that we show also be gracious to others. What does it mean to be gracious? It is not simply being nice, withholding judgment, or forgoing punishment. It is far greater.
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[h=2]Where Right Dividers Can Get Stuck[/h]God did not tell us to study a book just to keep us busy. Every seminary, university, and most grace assemblies study the Bible. Surely, a bunch of puffed up people would not be God's will (1 Cor 8:1-2). There seems to be a piece of the truth that is missing from most Bible studies and the average dispensational chart.
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[h=2]When Can Works Justify[/h]James 2:24 and Romans 4:5 are theological opposites. Some might call it a contradiction. Pastors are told in seminaries that the contradiction is only imaginary and that they mean the same thing. Black is white. Up is down. I don't buy it. Here's why.
Read More
The issue is that I was looking for a local church community that believed the same core issues that really matter to me. That's why I was upset.
What if you are off on a core issue but don't know you are?
Or might impact them with your perspective in some way?
It is only in comparing notes back and forth with a ministry as solidly grounded in core Mid-Acts principles as an assembly like Justin's is, that you will find out first hand not only what those principles are; but where you actually are in your own understanding of them.
And a true grace assembly will not only be willing to compare notes with anyone, but gracefully.
For an attitude of grace where different understandings arise; is what Mid-Acts is supposed to result in.
This "my way or the highway" and or "throwing in the towel" that some Mads react from whenever another Mad asserts a different understanding, is not the Berean way.
It is not.
Plain and simple.
You owe it to yourself to explore those issues with them.
You each stand to benefit the other, in one way or the other.
The best towards you as to this...
Re: post #145 - excellent collection of writings based on solid, consistent, core, Mid-Acts Dispensationalism.
The brother is a rarity.
Rightly; he appears to place very little emphasis on attempting to think a thing through...through human viewpoint, or the attempted rationalizing of one thing with another that so many erroneously attempt to make sense of Paul through.
Excellent collection of examples of just how to study a thing out :thumb:
The brother is a rarity.
Rightly; he appears to place very little emphasis on attempting to think a thing through...through human viewpoint, or the attempted rationalizing of one thing with another that so many erroneously attempt to make sense of Paul through.
Excellent collection of examples of just how to study a thing out :thumb:
That's what TOL is for.
Do you know how hard that is? To impact a pastor, or an entire church..?
Acts 9 isn't the issue. I'm fully with them on that. And I am fully aware of my position and understanding of the open view.
The last time this issue came up with an A9D fellowship it was a small Bible study and they were very confrontational when the issue arose. They did not like discussing it at all. They were the antithesis of receptive.
Maybe I should just start my own church.
The weekly emails I get from Grace Ambassadors have changed, but the "Read More" links are great I think, teaching Mid-Acts Dispensation
To your points...
Point 1 - not really. Not on the part of most of the Mads on TOL. They are more about telling non Mads how wrong they are. They take issue with another Mad wanting to compare notes where said others Mads do not hold their view.
That is not grace; and it certainly does lend itself to any kind of a true further refinement of one's understanding of core Mad based principles.
Point 2 - no one was talking about a revolution, lol.
And this differs with each Pastor and or assembly.
I recall one assembly where most held to the Lord's supper, and some did not. On that day, the ones who did not would simply go out to the lobby and wait til it was over. Some all huffy and puffy about that their belief against it was not the majority; others of their same persuasion against it were rather graceful about it.
Speaking to some from both groups, I found that some were able to compare notes; some were not.
Some were to into how they alone were right; as they actually looked down their noses at the others.
The older saints were simply philosophical in their outlook that grace was not allowed to be the deciding factor by all.
These issues test one's true beliefs about how grace works during such potentially sticky moments.
It is a principle the ever stuck in "not for us!!!" crowd has never been able to grasp.
Point 3 - You'd surprised how often Acts 9 actually turns out to be the issue. As not all Mads who assert they hold to Acts 9 turn out actually holding to Acts 9 in practice.
Where too much rationalizing about a thing (human viewpoint) begins to prevail over core Mid-Acts practices for studying a thing out.
Point 4 - true, SOME Mads are very closed to any "Mad" understanding but their own.
MANY are not.
I've plenty of both - Pastors and assembly members.
It's best to simply remain curious about how things work from where each individual is looking at a thing from.
This alone begins to allow one see where another is truly coming from - what principles about how a thing works they are coming from.
By the way, thank you for your comparing notes
Again, the issue is the open view, not MAD.To your points...
Point 1 - not really. Not on the part of most of the Mads on TOL. They are more about telling non Mads how wrong they are. They take issue with another Mad wanting to compare notes where said others Mads do not hold their view.
That is not grace; and it certainly does lend itself to any kind of a true further refinement of one's understanding of core Mad based principles.
Point 2 - no one was talking about a revolution, lol.
And this differs with each Pastor and or assembly.
I recall one assembly where most held to the Lord's supper, and some did not. On that day, the ones who did not would simply go out to the lobby and wait til it was over. Some all huffy and puffy about that their belief against it was not the majority; others of their same persuasion against it were rather graceful about it.
Speaking to some from both groups, I found that some were able to compare notes; some were not.
Some were to into how they alone were right; as they actually looked down their noses at the others.
The older saints were simply philosophical in their outlook that grace was not allowed to be the deciding factor by all.
These issues test one's true beliefs about how grace works during such potentially sticky moments.
It is a principle the ever stuck in "not for us!!!" crowd has never been able to grasp.
Point 3 - You'd surprised how often Acts 9 actually turns out to be the issue. As not all Mads who assert they hold to Acts 9 turn out actually holding to Acts 9 in practice.
Where too much rationalizing about a thing (human viewpoint) begins to prevail over core Mid-Acts practices for studying a thing out.
Point 4 - true, SOME Mads are very closed to any "Mad" understanding but their own.
MANY are not.
I've plenty of both - Pastors and assembly members.
It's best to simply remain curious about how things work from where each individual is looking at a thing from.
This alone begins to allow one see where another is truly coming from - what principles about how a thing works they are coming from.
By the way, thank you for your comparing notes
But, you're welcome.
Consider that all issues are Mad related issues.
Either in light of, or contrary to, how Mad studies any issue out.
Either one is consistent in their application of how Mad studies a thing out, or one is not.
In which case, the natural man's wisdom of this world is the approach influencing one's conclusions - man's rationalism; empiricism, and all the rest.
Different understandings between Mads have always revolved around the difference between spiritual, and the natural man's perspective.
Likewise where personal differences arise on the part of one; if not on the part of both sides.
Where such is the case, either one Mad, or both, find it impossible to speak unto the other as unto spiritual.
Can you prove your OV to them not only through the Scripture alone; but in light of the revelation of the Mystery's impact on the understanding of God's will?
Are you sure you have those right?
Are they?
You will not know you have either a friend or a foe in them as to any issue, or whether you truly are one or the other yourself until you put your cards on the table with them, or any other Mad, for that matter...
I'll tell ya what, Lighthouse; lay out in a sentence or two how you would explain to someone both Israel's fall and the Mystery that then began to unfold.
I ask because I have often found that many a Mad words that in a way that ends up looking like God was not only somehow caught off guard, but came up with some sort of a last minute plan B (that is supposedly a plan B).
Neither of those three of which is correct.
At least not correct, neither in my understanding, nor in what I have read of Justin's understanding.
Perhaps not in yours either...
I ask because I have often found that many a Mad words that in a way that ends up looking like God was not only somehow caught off guard, but came up with some sort of a last minute plan B (that is supposedly a plan B).
Neither of those three of which is correct.
At least not correct, neither in my understanding, nor in what I have read of Justin's understanding.
Perhaps not in yours either...
Of course He wasn't caught off guard. The parable of the fig tree shows that. But it also wasn't what God wanted primarily. This is why I can't understand how anyone can be MAD without also being OV.
Israel [the fig tree] didn't produce the fruit God wanted in the three years Jesus was on Earth, in the flesh He gave them an extra year. Still nothing, so they were cut off. God wanted the Gentiles, and since Israel wasn't delivering He went to someone else. With a different plan.
This was not last minute. He planned for this eventuality from the beginning of His plan for Israel and the Gentiles. He knew i was a possibility, a strong one, that Israel would fail. He knew their track record, and the hearts and minds, etc. of the people. Especially the leaders.
I know that's more than a couple of sentences, but I tend to be wordy. It's a byproduct of my ASD.
No problem on the ASD.
Actually, such "infirmities" often end up a strength in some other area as a result of a spillover into said other areas; the result of the brain's attempt to overcompensate in response to said "weakness."
As for the balance of your post - well, here goes another TOL Mad I perhaps end up being cut off from fellowship with :chuckle:
If so, then so be it...my apology for the following, nonetheless, bro.
Your above is off.
Neither Paul nor his Mystery were a response (planned or otherwise) to Israel's fall.
Nor were they a replacement of God's plan for the Earth and its' Gentiles through a redeemed Israel.
But more important is where you appear to be looking at things from; as that tends to impact what one sees - in many areas.
It appears you reasoned your above and then reasoned your OV into it.
As for the OV itself, at this point I continue to find it also the result of the following.
Where ever any Believer, including any Mad, relies on one aspect or another of the two basic systems of human viewpoint that all other systems of the wisdom of this world are not only based on, but that Paul knocks, say, in 1 Corinthians 1&2 - empiricism and rationalism - said Believer is said by Paul, to be looking at things through how and where the natural man looks at things from.
If you can wrap your head around the above, you will have gone a long way in beginning to free yourself from the mis-fire I often see some Mads on TOL and elsewhere look at things from.
Which is how Mads end up not only at different understandings from those of other Mads, but at understandings that are actually not a product of a consistent application of where Mad studies any issue out.
Which is how the Mad Perspective or Paradigm began to reemerge into a much more public awareness once more as far as Martin Luther; to begin with...
Only to be lost sight of by the Reformers due to their never having really let go of the above systems of human viewpoint.
Likewise with Darby's followers. They too failed to let go of the above.
As a result, what he had only begun to see, remained at what little he had been able to see, given both the habit the above systems can be, and the time that robs all men of just one more day in the needed work at hand.
If my post is perplexing, this is because I both look at, and talk or write in, operative principles - because looking at things from operative principles allows one to see far much more than one is able to without them.
Like that old tv sitcom Gilligan's Island.
Its Professor had not only been able to see things his fellow castaways could not, but he had been able to come up with all sorts of valid solutions to the many problems they faced given that things were "as primitive as can be" - problems he alone had been able to see the solutions to, due to the operating principles he looked at things from, as a Science Professor.
I don't say this in an attempt to impress you about me, rather; in hopes of impressing upon you to consider attempting to strive to look at things through operating principles.
Things like 'ok, what principle do I appear to be looking at this here, or that there, from? Is it consistent? Can I really rely on it? What might its' potential holes be? How might I identify those?'
After awhile, that becomes automatic and you begin to find yourself not only seeing more than you might be able to without such operating principles based kinds of questions, but to unavoidably see more than others do; at which point you find yourself in trouble with them :chuckle:
At which point, you can take heart in the following - for all the support you will ever need...
"...the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned. 2:15 But he that is spiritual judgeth all things, yet he himself is judged of no man" 1 Cor. 2.
Of the two systems one is the natural man's wisdom of this world (human viewpoint) or where the natural man looks at things from - from a combination of empiricism, and rationalism.
As in Genesis 3's account of Eve's words just before the fall, or where Paul asserts the Corinthians were looking at things from.
The other system is "spiritual" or looking at things through Scripture; itself no easy task, given our "natural" tendency to bring the other system in unawares.
"Profesorrrrr!!!"
"Gilligan; little buddy!" lol
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I'm going to wait to see where you're going with this.
I became MAD and OV at approximately the same time. And I couldn't tell you which came first. Those archives have been deleted.
Well, you didn't go anywhere with the initial thought of this post. Would you care to elaborate on that point?
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