Theology Club: Repent and be Baptized...for the Remission of Sins

[Jerry Shugart]

There are some within the MAD community who believe that the baptism of repentance was in regard to the forgiveness of sins which is necessary for salvation. But let us examine whether that is true or not.

First of all, the rite of water baptism served to "make ready a people prepared for the Lord " so that they "might serve Him...in holiness and righteousness " (Lk.1:17,74,75).

The children of Israel could not serve The Lord Jesus in righteousness and holiness as long as they remained living a life that defiled them. Therefore, they were to "repent" (have a change of mind) in regard to the sinful lifestyle they were living.

Let us look at Peter's words on the day of Pentecost in regard to the rite of water baptism:

"Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Spirit" (Acts 2:38).​

This baptism was only for those who had already believed (Acts 8:36-37) and were already saved. Therefore, the remission of sins in this instance was not for salvation but instead for "fellowship" with the Lord:

In the Journal of the Grace Evangelical Society David R. Anderson writes:

"We are suggesting that John the Baptist, Jesus, and Peter had dual ministries. One was to call the nation of Israel back into fellowship with Yahweh. The covenant relationship had long since been established. The nation of Israel did not need a new relationship with God. But they were sorely lacking in fellowship...John the Baptist, Jesus, and Peter were all trying to persuade Israel to repentance and turning that would bring them back to a refreshing fellowship with God...Now as a nation they needed to repent and turn (Acts 3:19) in order to have fellowship with God" [emphasis added] (Anderson, "The National Repentance of Israel," Journal of the Grace Evangelical Society, Autumn 1998, Volume 11:21).​

The baptism of Acts 2:38 was for the purpose of cleansing those who were already saved to bring them back to "fellowship" with the Lord. It was the "type" and the "antitype" is that which the Apostle John speaks of here:

"This then is the message which we have heard of him, and declare unto you, that God is light, and in him is no darkness at all If we say that we have fellowship with him, and walk in darkness, we lie, and do not the truth...If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness" (1 Jn.1:5-6, 9).​

Here John is saying that if we "confess" our sins then we will be cleansed from the things which interrupt our "fellowship" with God. The baptism of repentance was also in regard to confessing sins:

"In those days came John the Baptist, preaching in the wilderness of Judaea, And saying, Repent ye: for the kingdom of heaven is at hand...Then went out to him Jerusalem, and all Judaea, and all the region round about Jordan, And were baptized of him in Jordan, confessing their sins" (Mt.3:1-2,5-6).​

 

[musterion]

Mark 16:16 for you on line 1.

 

[Danoh]

There are some within the MAD community who believe that the baptism of repentance was in regard to the forgiveness of sins which is necessary for salvation. But let us examine whether that is true or not.

First of all, the rite of water baptism served to "make ready a people prepared for the Lord " so that they "might serve Him...in holiness and righteousness " (Lk.1:17,74,75).

The children of Israel could not serve The Lord Jesus in righteousness and holiness as long as they remained living a life that defiled them. Therefore, they were to "repent" (have a change of mind) in regard to the sinful lifestyle they were living.

Let us look at Peter's words on the day of Pentecost in regard to the rite of water baptism:

"Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Spirit" (Acts 2:38).​

This baptism was only for those who had already believed (Acts 8:36-37) and were already saved. Therefore, the remission of sins in this instance was not for salvation but instead for "fellowship" with the Lord:

In the Journal of the Grace Evangelical Society David R. Anderson writes:

"We are suggesting that John the Baptist, Jesus, and Peter had dual ministries. One was to call the nation of Israel back into fellowship with Yahweh. The covenant relationship had long since been established. The nation of Israel did not need a new relationship with God. But they were sorely lacking in fellowship...John the Baptist, Jesus, and Peter were all trying to persuade Israel to repentance and turning that would bring them back to a refreshing fellowship with God...Now as a nation they needed to repent and turn (Acts 3:19) in order to have fellowship with God" [emphasis added] (Anderson, "The National Repentance of Israel," Journal of the Grace Evangelical Society, Autumn 1998, Volume 11:21).​

The baptism of Acts 2:38 was for the purpose of cleansing those who were already saved to bring them back to "fellowship" with the Lord. It was the "type" and the "antitype" is that which the Apostle John speaks of here:

"This then is the message which we have heard of him, and declare unto you, that God is light, and in him is no darkness at all If we say that we have fellowship with him, and walk in darkness, we lie, and do not the truth...If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness" (1 Jn.1:5-6, 9).​

Here John is saying that if we "confess" our sins then we will be cleansed from the things which interrupt our "fellowship" with God. The baptism of repentance was also in regard to confessing sins:

"In those days came John the Baptist, preaching in the wilderness of Judaea, And saying, Repent ye: for the kingdom of heaven is at hand...Then went out to him Jerusalem, and all Judaea, and all the region round about Jordan, And were baptized of him in Jordan, confessing their sins" (Mt.3:1-2,5-6).​

The issue of repentance with Israel was that of their need to turn back from their filthiness and their idols to the God of their fathers as they were in danger of being cut off from Covenant relationship with him.

As such they'd be lost and headed for hell, as they had broken the Covenant they had been entered into by circumcision as mandated by God through and to Abraham.

In this, their water rites were the issue of reminding them of the filthiness of their flesh before God. The issue of the answer of a good conscience away from their filthiness, and toward God as to His Law.

All it was, was symbolic of how frail the destiny of their eternal soul was should they fail to keep Covenant with him by breaking His Law.

And this was Dispensational.

From obedience to the Law and the prophets as to God from that righteousness which is of faith, to their obedience to the Law and the prophets by submitting to John's Baptism from that righteousness which is of faith, to their obedience to the Law and the prophets by believing that Jesus was the Christ their Law and the prophets did say should come, from that righteousness which is of faith.

Were they saved before they believed the Law and the prophets but failed to obey the Law and the prophets as to any of the above seasons of the Law and the prophets?

Only if they believed the Law and the prophets, for not to do so was to break their Covenant of circumcision - by which they were entered into the Abrahamic Covenant with God.

Look at how far back the following principle goes - all the way back to Abraham and, later, Moses.

Acts 7:

51. Ye stiffnecked and uncircumcised in heart and ears, ye do always resist the Holy Ghost: as your fathers did, so do ye.
52. Which of the prophets have not your fathers persecuted? and they have slain them which shewed before of the coming of the Just One; of whom ye have been now the betrayers and murderers:
53. Who have received the law by the disposition of angels, and have not kept it.

Romans 2:

25. For circumcision verily profiteth, if thou keep the law: but if thou be a breaker of the law, thy circumcision is made uncircumcision.

28. For he is not a Jew, which is one outwardly; neither is that circumcision, which is outward in the flesh:
29. But he is a Jew, which is one inwardly; and circumcision is that of the heart, in the spirit, and not in the letter; whose praise is not of men, but of God.

Romans 9:

30. What shall we say then? That the Gentiles, which followed not after righteousness, have attained to righteousness, even the righteousness which is of faith.
31. But Israel, which followed after the law of righteousness, hath not attained to the law of righteousness.
32. Wherefore? Because they sought it not by faith, but as it were by the works of the law. For they stumbled at that stumblingstone;
33. As it is written, Behold, I lay in Sion a stumblingstone and rock of offence: and whosoever believeth on him shall not be ashamed.

In this, water baptism was the issue of "The like figure whereunto even baptism doth also now save us (not the putting away of the filth of the flesh, but the answer of a good conscience toward God,) by the resurrection of Jesus Christ" 1 Peter 3:21.

Luke 7:

29. And all the people that heard him, and the publicans, justified God, being baptized with the baptism of John.
30. But the Pharisees and lawyers rejected the counsel of God against themselves, being not baptized of him.

31. And the Lord said, Whereunto then shall I liken the men of this generation? and to what are they like?
32. They are like unto children sitting in the marketplace, and calling one to another, and saying, We have piped unto you, and ye have not danced; we have mourned to you, and ye have not
wept.
33. For John the Baptist came neither eating bread nor drinking wine; and ye say, He hath a devil.
34. The Son of man is come eating and drinking; and ye say, Behold a gluttonous man, and a winebibber, a friend of publicans and sinners!
35. But wisdom is justified of all her children.

John 8:

37. I know that ye are Abraham's seed; but ye seek to kill me, because my word hath no place in you.
38. I speak that which I have seen with my Father: and ye do that which ye have seen with your father.
39. They answered and said unto him, Abraham is our father. Jesus saith unto them, If ye were Abraham's children, ye would do the works of Abraham.
40. But now ye seek to kill me, a man that hath told you the truth, which I have heard of God: this did not Abraham.
41. Ye do the deeds of your father. Then said they to him, We be not born of fornication; we have one Father, even God.
42. Jesus said unto them, If God were your Father, ye would love me: for I proceeded forth and came from God; neither came I of myself, but he sent me.
43. Why do ye not understand my speech? even because ye cannot hear my word.
44. Ye are of your father the devil, and the lusts of your father ye will do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and abode not in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaketh a lie, he speaketh of his own: for he is a liar, and the father of it.
45. And because I tell you the truth, ye believe me not.

Doesn't read like He believed they were saved just because of their Covenant relationship with God.

 

[Jerry Shugart]

Mark 16:16 for you on line 1.

"He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned" (Mk.16:16).​

Here the Lord is not saying that a requirement for salvation is baptism with water, but instead He is describing those who will be saved. This is similiar to the following words of the Lord:

"And every one that hath forsaken houses, or brethren, or sisters, or father, or mother, or wife, or children, or lands, for my name's sake, shall receive an hundredfold, and shall inherit everlasting life" (Mt.19:29).​

Here the Lord says that those who have forsaken their families will receive everlasting life, but surely no one will argue that this is a requirement for salvation. Instead, the Lord is merely describing many who will be saved. Therefore we can understand that at Mark 16:16 the Lord Jesus is merely describing those who will be saved.

Again, at Mark 16:16 the Lord is just describing those who will be saved.

Besides that, before anyone could be baptized with water they had to first believe:

"And as they went on their way, they came unto a certain water: and the eunuch said, See, here is water; what doth hinder me to be baptized? And Philip said, If thou believest with all thine heart, thou mayest. And he answered and said, I believe that Jesus Christ is the Son of God" (Acts 8:36-37).​

Before the eunuch was baptized with water he was already "born of God" because he believed that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God:

"Whosoever believeth that Jesus is the Christ is born of God..For whatsoever is born of God overcometh the world: and this is the victory that overcometh the world, even our faith. Who is he that overcometh the world, but he that believeth that Jesus is the Son of God?" (1 Jn.5:1,4-5).​

There can be no doubt that the eunuch was "born of God" before he was baptized with water so we can know that being baptized with water does not contribute in any way to anyone being saved.

 

[Jerry Shugart]

All it was, was symbolic of how frail the destiny of their eternal soul was should they fail to keep Covenant with him by breaking His Law.

The Jewish believers were told that they had already been given eternal life (1 Jn.5:11) and here is what the Lord Jesus said about those to whom He gives eternal life:

"And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand" (Jn.10:28).​

Look at how far back the following principle goes - all the way back to Abraham and, later, Moses.

Acts 7:

51. Ye stiffnecked and uncircumcised in heart and ears, ye do always resist the Holy Ghost: as your fathers did, so do ye.
52. Which of the prophets have not your fathers persecuted? and they have slain them which shewed before of the coming of the Just One; of whom ye have been now the betrayers and murderers:
53. Who have received the law by the disposition of angels, and have not kept it.

Romans 2:

25. For circumcision verily profiteth, if thou keep the law: but if thou be a breaker of the law, thy circumcision is made uncircumcision.

28. For he is not a Jew, which is one outwardly; neither is that circumcision, which is outward in the flesh:
29. But he is a Jew, which is one inwardly; and circumcision is that of the heart, in the spirit, and not in the letter; whose praise is not of men, but of God.

Romans 9:

30. What shall we say then? That the Gentiles, which followed not after righteousness, have attained to righteousness, even the righteousness which is of faith.
31. But Israel, which followed after the law of righteousness, hath not attained to the law of righteousness.
32. Wherefore? Because they sought it not by faith, but as it were by the works of the law. For they stumbled at that stumblingstone;
33. As it is written, Behold, I lay in Sion a stumblingstone and rock of offence: and whosoever believeth on him shall not be ashamed.

Paul speaks of the righteousness of God APART FROM THE LAW and it comes to all who believe:

"But now apart from the law the righteousness of God has been made known, to which the Law and the Prophets testify. This righteousness is given through the faithfulness of Jesus Christ to all who believe" (Ro.3:21-22).​

Then Paul uses David as an example of one who has received the righteousness of God apart from the law:

"Even as David also describeth the blessedness of the man, unto whom God imputeth righteousness without works, Saying, Blessed are they whose iniquities are forgiven, and whose sins are covered. Blessed is the man to whom the Lord will not impute sin" (Ro.4:6-8).​

David's salvation did not depend in anyway on keeping the law even though he lived under the law.

In this, water baptism was the issue of "The like figure whereunto even baptism doth also now save us (not the putting away of the filth of the flesh, but the answer of a good conscience toward God,) by the resurrection of Jesus Christ" 1 Peter 3:21.

The baptism that saves us is this one:

"For by one Spirit are we all baptized into one body, whether we be Jews or Gentiles, whether we be bond or free; and have been all made to drink into one Spirit" (1 Cor.12:13).​

Doesn't read like He believed they were saved just because of their Covenant relationship with God.

These are the words of the Lord Jesus spoken to the Jews who lived under the Law:

"Very truly I tell you, whoever hears my word and believes him who sent me has eternal life and will not be judged but has crossed over from death to life" (Jn.5:24; NIV).​

 

[Danoh]

Jerry, David's had been a lament, out of his sense of his many screw ups.

And Paul's is BUT NOW the righteousness of God without the Law is made manifest..."

Face it. You are as fully persuaded in your own mind about these things as I am in mine.

So... be happy with it.

The fact remains that "whatsoever is not of faith; is sin."

In other words, be happy that you see what you believe you do.

Don't so need to have others agree with it in order for you to be happy with them.

God knows the Grace Movement has had enough of that.

Yours, in Him...

 

[Jerry Shugart]

Jerry, David's had been a lament, out of his sense of his many screw ups.

And Paul's is BUT NOW the righteousness of God without the Law is made manifest..."

The word "manifest" means to make known. The facts concerning the imputed righteousness of God apart from law was not made known until Paul.

And Paul uses David as an example of one who received that blessing, and he lived under the law. All the circumcised believers received this same blessing:

"Even as David also describeth the blessedness of the man, unto whom God imputeth righteousness without works...Cometh this blessedness then upon the circumcision only, or upon the uncircumcision also?" (Ro.4:6,9).​

The Jews who lived under the Law were saved exactly as we are:

"Therefore it is of faith, that it might be by grace; to the end the promise might be sure to all the seed; not to that only which is of the law, but to that also which is of the faith of Abraham; who is the father of us all" (Ro.4:16).​

Those who lived under the law were saved on the principle of grace, and if it is of grace then it cannot be of works.

 

[musterion]

This baptism was only for those who had already believed (Acts 8:36-37) and were already saved. Therefore, the remission of sins in this instance was not for salvation but instead for "fellowship" with the Lord

[In Mark 16:16] the Lord says that those who have forsaken their families will receive everlasting life, but surely no one will argue that this is a requirement for salvation. Instead, the Lord is merely describing many who will be saved. Therefore we can understand that at Mark 16:16 the Lord Jesus is merely describing those who will be saved.

Had a believing Jew somehow neglected or refused water baptism, perhaps taking a stand on faith alone in Messiah, would they have been accepted by Peter and the rest?

 

[Jerry Shugart]

Had a believing Jew somehow neglected or refused water baptism, perhaps taking a stand on faith alone in Messiah, would they have been accepted by Peter and the rest?

They would have certainly questioned his sincerity. After all, submitting to the rite of baptism was more or less a pledge to change one's way of life for the better. Here is what Paul was told:

"And now why tarriest thou? arise, and be baptized, and wash away thy sins, calling on the name of the Lord" (Acts 22:16).​

In his commentary on this verse Sir Robert Anderson writes, "The Apostle records the words which Ananias addressed to him (Paul) at his conversion: 'Arise and be baptized, and wash away thy sins, calling on the name of the Lord'...His meaning is clear: 'Arise and be baptized, and turn away from your evil courses, calling on His name'" [emphasis mine] (Anderson, The Bible or the Church? [London: Pickering & Inglis, Second Edition], 230-231).

That is the meaning of the words "ye washed yourselves" and "cleanse ourselves" in the following verses:

"And such were some of you: but ye washed yourselves, but ye were sanctified, but ye were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus, and by the Spirit of our God " (1 Cor.6:11; RV, Marginal Note).​

"Having therefore these promises, dearly beloved, let us cleanse ourselves from all filthiness of the flesh and spirit, perfecting holiness in the fear of God " (2 Cor.7:1).​

 

[Jerry Shugart]

Repent, and believe the gospel (Mark 1:4 KJV) by baptism of repentance for the remission of sins (Mark 1:4 KJV, Mark 16:16 KJV, Acts 2:38 KJV)

Before anyone could be baptized with water they has to first believe, as witnessed by the following exchange between Philip and the eunuch:

"And as they went on their way, they came unto a certain water: and the eunuch said, See, here is water; what doth hinder me to be baptized? And Philip said, If thou believest with all thine heart, thou mayest. And he answered and said, I believe that Jesus Christ is the Son of God" (Acts 8:36-37).​

By the time when the eunuch believed that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God, he had already received life when he was born of God:

" But these are written, that ye might believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God; and that believing ye might have life through his name" (Jn.20:31).​

"Whosoever believeth that Jesus is the Christ is born of God..For whatsoever is born of God overcometh the world: and this is the victory that overcometh the world, even our faith. Who is he that overcometh the world, but he that believeth that Jesus is the Son of God?" (1 Jn.5:1,4-5).​

 

[Danoh]

Before anyone could be baptized with water they has to first believe, as witnessed by the following exchange between Philip and the eunuch:

"And as they went on their way, they came unto a certain water: and the eunuch said, See, here is water; what doth hinder me to be baptized? And Philip said, If thou believest with all thine heart, thou mayest. And he answered and said, I believe that Jesus Christ is the Son of God" (Acts 8:36-37).​

By the time when the eunuch believed that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God, he had already received life when he was born of God:

" But these are written, that ye might believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God; and that believing ye might have life through his name" (Jn.20:31).​

"Whosoever believeth that Jesus is the Christ is born of God..For whatsoever is born of God overcometh the world: and this is the victory that overcometh the world, even our faith. Who is he that overcometh the world, but he that believeth that Jesus is the Son of God?" (1 Jn.5:1,4-5).​

Observing how Jerry squirms his errors into the passages he cites in support of his errors is like watching people playing that old game "Twister."

Talk about being willingly blind to the many passages that define what belief is exactly within their specific, Dispensational context -that he, without conscience; so easily rips their passages from.

 

[SaulToPaul 2]

This baptism was only for those who had already believed (Acts 8:36-37) and were already saved. Therefore, the remission of sins in this instance was not for salvation but instead for "fellowship" with the Lord:

Jerry's first error in bold, leading to wrong conclusions afterward.
A mess.

 

[Danoh]

Jerry's first error in bold, leading to wrong conclusions afterward.
A mess.

His problem is that he is partly right, but also partly wrong, to begin with, lol

One just does not get these things from books about them; nor from a Greek tense, article, mood, tense, or what have you; nor from a passage or two; nor from some shallow reading; let alone, from reading into the passages.

Thus, he is not only off on what he is right about, but off on what he is wrong about.

This Neo-Mad label of his is actually an indicator of his having shut down long ago.

It should read to all readers here as "Proceed With Caution: Closed Mind Ahead..."

For such is that of a mind similar in perception of things much like how some will look at someone who's arms happen to be folded at the same time he happens to announce that he is bored, and from then on forever read into that, "well, see, when a person's arms are folded, well, this means they are bored; anyone can see that..."

The more astute will "Proceed With Caution" and simply seek to dig a bit deeper each time, anew.

 

[Jerry Shugart]

Jerry's first error in bold, leading to wrong conclusions afterward.
A mess.

You are the mess because you just IGNORED what I said. Before anyone cold be baptized with water they had to first believe, as as witnessed by the following exchange between Philip and the eunuch:

"And as they went on their way, they came unto a certain water: and the eunuch said, See, here is water; what doth hinder me to be baptized? And Philip said, If thou believest with all thine heart, thou mayest. And he answered and said, I believe that Jesus Christ is the Son of God" (Acts 8:36-37).​

By the time when the Jew believed he was already saved:

"For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life" (Jn.3:16).​

This is so simple but since you refuse to believe these Scriptures you continue to a lead others away from the truth by saying that the Jews who lived under the law could not be saved until they believed and did works!

 

[SaulToPaul 2]

Jerry thinks everyone in the Bible who was a believer was already "saved".
Not true.

He would do well to think about Noah, who was a believer, who was just, and perfect in his generations.
And then found grace and was saved. It is a picture of the majority of salvation in the Bible (except for us in the Body).

 

[Jerry Shugart]

Jerry thinks everyone in the Bible who was a believer was already "saved".
Not true.

He would do well to think about Noah, who was a believer, who was just, and perfect in his generations.
And then found grace and was saved. It is a picture of the majority of salvation in the Bible (except for us in the Body).

Why did you not quote a verse which said that Noah was a believer BEFORE he found grace and was saved?

The Scriptures state in no uncertain terms that he became heir of the righteousness WHICH IS BY FAITH:

"By faith Noah, being warned of God of things not seen as yet, moved with fear, prepared an ark to the saving of his house; by the which he condemned the world, and became heir of the righteousness which is by faith" (Heb.11:6).​

Are you denying the truth that Noah became a heir of the righteousness which is by faith and faith alone?

Do you deny the truth that the following verses is saying that those who have "faith" and faith alone are saved?:

"And as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of man be lifted up: That whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have eternal life" (Jn.3:15).​

According to you mistaken ideas a Jew who lived under the law could believe but yet not be saved. Are you not ashamed of the way that you blatantly reject what is clearly stated in the Scriptures?

You should be!

 

[way 2 go]

Jerry thinks everyone in the Bible who was a believer was already "saved".
Not true.

king Saul is the one jerry has no definite answer for except to obfuscate

1Sa 28:15
1Sa 28:16 And Samuel said, "Why then do you ask me, since the LORD has turned from you and become your enemy?

 

[way 2 go]

According to you mistaken ideas a Jew who lived under the law could believe but yet not be saved. Are you not ashamed of the way that you blatantly reject what is clearly stated in the Scriptures?

Jews in the old testament if they had faith and kept the law
would be saved

you like to quote Paul's examples of grace from the old testament
and apply that to everyone in the old testament which is not Paul's
point
Paul is trying to show his gospel of grace that he preaches
had examples in the old testament
not that
nothing changed from the old testament to his preaching of the
gospel of grace.

:carryon:
2Ti 3:13 while evil people and impostors will go on from bad to worse, deceiving and being deceived.

 

[Jerry Shugart]

Jews in the old testament if they had faith and kept the law
would be saved

Here is what the Lord Jesus said to the Jews of the Old Testament who lived under the law:

"Very truly I tell you, whoever hears my word and believes him who sent me has eternal life and will not be judged but has crossed over from death to life" (Jn.5:24).​

 

[musterion]

I used to hear, and make, and believe, many of these same arguments when I was an independent fundamental Acts 2 Baptist.

Strange, ain't it.