Theology Club: John Nelson Darby

[Totton Linnet]

JND has been called the father of Dispensationalism, he is not. He IS the father of modern pre-tribulation rapture.

If you believe in covenants you must also believe in dispensations, the covenants differ in the way God has dispensed them to different people. This is so apparently true that it seems strange that any would deny it.

Darby in his study read the latter day promises God made to Israel, that Israel would be visited with great earthly blessings, Israel would be the greatest nation, Righteousness, peace and prosperity would mark her last days, as God indeed has spoken by the mouth of all His prophets since Abraham.

He saw at once that these promises could never belong to the church and he was right.

But then he made in my view an odd judgement, an illogical leap in his thinking, he deduced from this that Israel must go through the great tribulation while the church escaped. It does not make sense. For the very reason that he made the first judgement.

That Israel is distinguished from the church in the latter days by opposite conditions, the latter days of Israel are characterized by peace and prosperity while the end of the church age by war and famine.

The promises concerning Israel are strictly for the new age, the restoration of all things promised for when Christ returns, the new dispensation, the millennium when creation will be set free from it's bondage to decay.

But I think Israel will become a super power before the end of this age.

 

[SaulToPaul 2]

Cue Tet Nelson Elestai.

 

[heir]

Cue Tet Nelson Elestai.

:chuckle:

 

[Nick M]

The way Tet always talks about him and Bullinger, I can assume they believe the Bible and skip the commentary.

 

[Jerry Shugart]

If you believe in covenants you must also believe in dispensations, the covenants differ in the way God has dispensed them to different people. This is so apparently true that it seems strange that any would deny it.

The present stewardship or dispensation of grace has nothing at all to do with God dispensing any covenant.

 

[Totton Linnet]

Of course it does. God deals with men by covenants, the way in which and the conditions upon which He administers each covenant are called dispensations.

It is Paul to who we as Gentiles must look primarily to explain to us the way and conditions God will dispense His grace to us through the gospel.

 

[Nang]

John Nelson Darby was a mess.

 

[SaulToPaul 2]

:chuckle:

Or Craig T Nelson

 

[Totton Linnet]

John Nelson Darby was a mess.

He wasn't all bad [I believe you were once enamoured of him] he did have a sharp mind which for a theologian can have it's downside.

His great flaw was his vanity, he was willing to twist scripture to make it fit his pre-trib doctrine. It was THIS doctrine which caused him to fall out with Newton and which culminated in the Bethesda debacle.

His actions therein were evil.

The Brethren until that time was a remarkable work of God.

 

[Jerry Shugart]

Of course it does. God deals with men by covenants, the way in which and the conditions upon which He administers each covenant are called dispensations.

It is Paul to who we as Gentiles must look primarily to explain to us the way and conditions God will dispense His grace to us through the gospel.

Show me any verse which speaks of a "covenant of grace."

 

[heir]

Or Craig T Nelson

Coach!

 

[Totton Linnet]

Show me any verse which speaks of a "covenant of grace."

Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ and thou shalt be saved ....

 

[Jerry Shugart]

Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ and thou shalt be saved ....

That is not a covenant!

There is nothing that even hints that is a covenant.

 

[Totton Linnet]

That is not a covenant!

There is nothing that even hints that is a covenant.

Of course it is, there is a promise and a condition, yes and a guarantee, the three elements of a covenant between parties.

Faith is the only condition upon which God has promised to save us...by grace. Whereas God's promise of grace He made with Israel was dispensed upon the condition of obedience here the condition is faith...and that also is by grace.

 

[Totton Linnet]

Does Paul speak of a dispensation of grace...I think he does.

 

[Jerry Shugart]

Does Paul speak of a dispensation of grace...I think he does.

The subject we were discussing is whether or not there is a "covenant of grace." You assert that there is one but you give no proof that there is one.

Of course it is, there is a promise and a condition, yes and a guarantee, the three elements of a covenant between parties.

Faith is the only condition upon which God has promised to save us...by grace. Whereas God's promise of grace He made with Israel was dispensed upon the condition of obedience here the condition is faith...and that also is by grace.

You obviously do not even understand what the stewardship responsibly is in regard to the stewardship or dispensation of grace.

 

[Jerry Shugart]

Ok we won't quibble.

Jesus said to me, "trust Me and you shall be saved" that is the covenant of grace between us.

That is not a covenant. Here is what you said earlier:

If you believe in covenants you must also believe in dispensations, the covenants differ in the way God has dispensed them to different people. This is so apparently true that it seems strange that any would deny it.

What God dispenses are the various stewardships, not covenants. And a stewardship is not a covenant.

A "dispensation" is in regard to a "stewardship" that is given to man from God in order to carry out a specific task. Here are three quotes from the pen of Paul where he speaks of a "dispensation" that has been committed or given to him:

"If ye have heard of the dispensation of the grace of God which is given me toward you" (Eph. 3:2).​

"Whereof I am made a minister, according to the dispensation of God which is given to me for you, to fulfil the word of God" (Col.1:25).​

"...a dispensation of the gospel is committed unto me" (1 Cor.9:17).​

The "dispensation" which was committed to Paul is in regard to "God's grace", a "ministry", and a "gospel." Here Paul sums up his dispensational responsibility:

"But none of these things move me, neither count I my life dear unto myself, so that I might finish my course with joy, and the ministry, which I have received of the Lord Jesus, to testify the gospel of the grace of God" (Acts 20: 24).​

The dispensation of grace spoken of here is in regard to God dispensing a "stewardship" to man.

...we'll call it a cauliflower.

You might as well call it that because you obviously do not understand that what God is dispensing is a "stewardship" and not a "covenant."

 

[Totton Linnet]

Don't quibble so.

Dispensations are the way in which God administers His grace through covenants.

Did Paul have a stewardship of God's grace to the Gentiles? that stewardship is a dispensation. The gospel is a covenant, a solemn pledge by God, believe on the Lord Jesus Christ and thou shalt be saved.

The salvation is the grace it is dispensed by God through the preaching of the gospel of which Paul was a minister.

Previously God dispensed His promises by the covenant of the law...obey and live.

 

[Totton Linnet]

That is not a covenant. Here is what you said earlier:



What God dispenses are the various stewardships, not covenants. And a stewardship is not a covenant.

A "dispensation" is in regard to a "stewardship" that is given to man from God in order to carry out a specific task. Here are three quotes from the pen of Paul where he speaks of a "dispensation" that has been committed or given to him:

"If ye have heard of the dispensation of the grace of God which is given me toward you" (Eph. 3:2).​

"Whereof I am made a minister, according to the dispensation of God which is given to me for you, to fulfil the word of God" (Col.1:25).​

"...a dispensation of the gospel is committed unto me" (1 Cor.9:17).​

The "dispensation" which was committed to Paul is in regard to "God's grace", a "ministry", and a "gospel." Here Paul sums up his dispensational responsibility:

"But none of these things move me, neither count I my life dear unto myself, so that I might finish my course with joy, and the ministry, which I have received of the Lord Jesus, to testify the gospel of the grace of God" (Acts 20: 24).​

The dispensation of grace spoken of here is in regard to God dispensing a "stewardship" to man.



You might as well call it that because you obviously do not understand that what God is dispensing is a "stewardship" and not a "covenant."

It is all the same word you are quibbling over

Minister
Steward
Dispenser

...Cauliflower

 

[Totton Linnet]

You believe in dispensations...THAT'S the point.