Theology Club: I'm a heretic (probably...you tell me)

[musterion]

I've been a MAD for going on 10 years. In that time, I've met (as I'm sure many of you have) or communicated with several "names" within the movement, some bigger, some smaller, but still "names." It soon became apparent that for whatever reason - the flesh, I suppose - there were many unexpected divisions within the "Grace movement" that I naively did not expect to find at first. Yet there they are...some are necessary divisions over irreconcilable doctrinal differences while others (I won't yet say which) strike me as pointless time-wasters. And there are still others which I find to be glaring issues which never, ever seem to get on the radar of the Grace movement as a whole; things most folks see but never discuss. It troubles me, but Christ will sort it all out at the Rapture, then at the Bema.

There is one issue, though, which very, VERY few even consider thinking about. I'm one of them. This...suspicion I have (I can't call it a belief because I can't 100% prove it) will likely get me banned from any fellowship I belonged to; in fact it would very likely preclude it. Without beating around the bush further, I'll just spill it and see who replies:

I believe it is possible that ALL the gifts listed in 1 Corinthians and even Ephesians 4 were temporary for the founding of the Church while the full revelation of God was still being given and compiled. By "all," I mean ALL of them...not just the sign gifts, which goes without saying as they were for unbelieving Israel's conviction, but the ministerial gifts claimed by thousands throughout the centuries since. I believe this is possible for a few Scriptural reasons as well as for a few real-world practical ones but, naturally, to even broach the subject in most places would be enough to get you shunned if not officially disfellowshipped.

Anyone else think the way I do? Again, I'm not totally convinced of it but...I wonder. This suspicion is not new to me as a MAD but goes way back to my loosey-goosey campus ministry beginnings and my later indie-fundie Baptist days...so I've been chewing it over for a loooong time. But if my suspicion is true, man oh man would it explain A LOT.

I welcome any and all thoughts, rebukes and accusations of heresy.

 

[heir]

I hope to respond to this soon when I have a little more time.

 

[Lighthouse]

Anyone else think the way I do?

:wave2:I do.

 

[Ktoyou]

Real Grace bring knowledge of Truth. Then you know, yet you are not done until God calls you.

 

[heir]

Good morning, musterion

While I would agree with you that the spiritual gifts/sign gifts listed in 1 Corinthians were done away since that which is perfect has come, and now abideth faith, hope, charity; the list in Ephesians 4 is different (although I believe it too to be a prioritized one).

It shows that God gave gifts unto men (Ephesians 4:8 KJV) and lists them in verse 11 (Ephesians 4:11 KJV). And though there are no more apostles and prophets today (as they died out), at this point in my studies I believe that the gifts of evangelists, pastors and teachers are still with us and the word tells us why and for how long. I've yet to see a scriptural reason to say they aren't.

Ephesians 4:11-16 KJV And he gave some, apostles; and some, prophets; and some, evangelists; and some, pastors and teachers; 12 For the perfecting of the saints, for the work of the ministry, for the edifying of the body of Christ: 13 Till we all come in the unity of the faith, and of the knowledge of the Son of God, unto a perfect man, unto the measure of the stature of the fulness of Christ: 14 That we henceforth be no more children, tossed to and fro, and carried about with every wind of doctrine, by the sleight of men, and cunning craftiness, whereby they lie in wait to deceive; 15 But speaking the truth in love, may grow up into him in all things, which is the head, even Christ: 16 From whom the whole body fitly joined together and compacted by that which every joint supplieth, according to the effectual working in the measure of every part, maketh increase of the body unto the edifying of itself in love.

 

[musterion]

Good morning, musterion

Good afternoon, friend Heir.

While I would agree with you that the spiritual gifts/sign gifts listed in 1 Corinthians were done away since that which is perfect has come, and now abideth faith, hope, charity; the list in Ephesians 4 is different (although I believe it too to be a prioritized one).

It shows that God gave gifts unto men (Ephesians 4:8 KJV) and lists them in verse 11 (Ephesians 4:11 KJV). And though there are no more apostles and prophets today (as they died out), at this point in my studies I believe that the gifts of evangelists, pastors and teachers are still with us and the word tells us why and for how long. I've yet to see a scriptural reason to say they aren't.

Ephesians 4:11-16 KJV And he gave some, apostles; and some, prophets; and some, evangelists; and some, pastors and teachers; 12 For the perfecting of the saints, for the work of the ministry, for the edifying of the body of Christ: 13 Till we all come in the unity of the faith, and of the knowledge of the Son of God, unto a perfect man, unto the measure of the stature of the fulness of Christ: 14 That we henceforth be no more children, tossed to and fro, and carried about with every wind of doctrine, by the sleight of men, and cunning craftiness, whereby they lie in wait to deceive; 15 But speaking the truth in love, may grow up into him in all things, which is the head, even Christ: 16 From whom the whole body fitly joined together and compacted by that which every joint supplieth, according to the effectual working in the measure of every part, maketh increase of the body unto the edifying of itself in love.

A question, just to start this off...and it's an honest, unloaded question...

We know that literally "all in Asia" abandoned Paul both personally and doctrinally, not only because that's what he tells us had happened by the time he wrote 2 Timothy but also because early church history bears out the sad story of the the judaizing of Christendom and the marginalizing of Pauline doctrine, which persists to this day.

My question, though: Do you think Paul knew that wholesale abandonment was going to happen when he wrote the epistle to the Ephesians?

 

[heir]

My question, though: Do you think Paul knew that wholesale abandonment was going to happen when he wrote the epistle to the Ephesians?

Ephesians was a prison epistle/a later epistle, so yes, it's possible. I'm not one that is much into speculating. I love to discuss what is written.

 

[Totton Linnet]

Then you are working on revelation not written in scripture......perhaps the Holy Ghost is female...perhaps this was ongoing revelation which Paul did not record.

 

[musterion]

:wave2:I do.

On this particular issue? I would enjoy knowing your mind on it.

 

[Vaquero45]

I've been a MAD for going on 10 years. In that time, I've met (as I'm sure many of you have) or communicated with several "names" within the movement, some bigger, some smaller, but still "names." It soon became apparent that for whatever reason - the flesh, I suppose - there were many unexpected divisions within the "Grace movement" that I naively did not expect to find at first. Yet there they are...some are necessary divisions over irreconcilable doctrinal differences while others (I won't yet say which) strike me as pointless time-wasters. And there are still others which I find to be glaring issues which never, ever seem to get on the radar of the Grace movement as a whole; things most folks see but never discuss. It troubles me, but Christ will sort it all out at the Rapture, then at the Bema.

There is one issue, though, which very, VERY few even consider thinking about. I'm one of them. This...suspicion I have (I can't call it a belief because I can't 100% prove it) will likely get me banned from any fellowship I belonged to; in fact it would very likely preclude it. Without beating around the bush further, I'll just spill it and see who replies:

I believe it is possible that ALL the gifts listed in 1 Corinthians and even Ephesians 4 were temporary for the founding of the Church while the full revelation of God was still being given and compiled. By "all," I mean ALL of them...not just the sign gifts, which goes without saying as they were for unbelieving Israel's conviction, but the ministerial gifts claimed by thousands throughout the centuries since. I believe this is possible for a few Scriptural reasons as well as for a few real-world practical ones but, naturally, to even broach the subject in most places would be enough to get you shunned if not officially disfellowshipped.

Anyone else think the way I do? Again, I'm not totally convinced of it but...I wonder. This suspicion is not new to me as a MAD but goes way back to my loosey-goosey campus ministry beginnings and my later indie-fundie Baptist days...so I've been chewing it over for a loooong time. But if my suspicion is true, man oh man would it explain A LOT.

I welcome any and all thoughts, rebukes and accusations of heresy.

Everyone is someone's heretic but I agree with you here.

I'm a Mid Acts Dispy too btw.

 

[Lighthouse]

On this particular issue? I would enjoy knowing your mind on it.

I'm MAD and it just seems to me that the necessity for the gifts has passed, therefore the gifts themselves have faded away.

However, I do believe God is still able to use them if He deems them necessary in a situation. But that is rare.

 

[musterion]

I'm MAD and it just seems to me that the necessity for the gifts has passed, therefore the gifts themselves have faded away.

However, I do believe God is still able to use them if He deems them necessary in a situation. But that is rare.

Do you include the "pastoral" (for lack of a better term) gifts in that?

 

[Lighthouse]

Do you include the "pastoral" (for lack of a better term) gifts in that?

Do you mean "evangelists, pastors and teachers"?

 

[musterion]

Yes; couldn't tell if you made that distinction.

 

[intojoy]

I've been a MAD for going on 10 years. In that time, I've met (as I'm sure many of you have) or communicated with several "names" within the movement, some bigger, some smaller, but still "names." It soon became apparent that for whatever reason - the flesh, I suppose - there were many unexpected divisions within the "Grace movement" that I naively did not expect to find at first. Yet there they are...some are necessary divisions over irreconcilable doctrinal differences while others (I won't yet say which) strike me as pointless time-wasters. And there are still others which I find to be glaring issues which never, ever seem to get on the radar of the Grace movement as a whole; things most folks see but never discuss. It troubles me, but Christ will sort it all out at the Rapture, then at the Bema.

There is one issue, though, which very, VERY few even consider thinking about. I'm one of them. This...suspicion I have (I can't call it a belief because I can't 100% prove it) will likely get me banned from any fellowship I belonged to; in fact it would very likely preclude it. Without beating around the bush further, I'll just spill it and see who replies:

I believe it is possible that ALL the gifts listed in 1 Corinthians and even Ephesians 4 were temporary for the founding of the Church while the full revelation of God was still being given and compiled. By "all," I mean ALL of them...not just the sign gifts, which goes without saying as they were for unbelieving Israel's conviction, but the ministerial gifts claimed by thousands throughout the centuries since. I believe this is possible for a few Scriptural reasons as well as for a few real-world practical ones but, naturally, to even broach the subject in most places would be enough to get you shunned if not officially disfellowshipped.

Anyone else think the way I do? Again, I'm not totally convinced of it but...I wonder. This suspicion is not new to me as a MAD but goes way back to my loosey-goosey campus ministry beginnings and my later indie-fundie Baptist days...so I've been chewing it over for a loooong time. But if my suspicion is true, man oh man would it explain A LOT.

I welcome any and all thoughts, rebukes and accusations of heresy.

Two gifts are pictured as the foundation of a building. The remaining gifts complete a picture of continual upward growth of the building. The building is us, the body of believers and our spiritual gifts .

having been built on the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Christ Jesus Himself being the corner stone, in whom the whole building, being fitted together, is growing into a holy temple in the Lord, in whom you also are being built together into a dwelling of God in the Spirit. (Ephesians 2:20-22 NASB)

This passage teaches that the gifts of Apostleship and Prophet are not available to us today. Which means that the highest gift available now is _______.

The gift of Teaching. The one who holds this gift has the highest gift available to the church.

A prerequisite to the gift of teacher is the gift of knowledge. Yet one can have the gift of knowledge and not have the gift of teaching. A pastor can have the gift of pastorship but that doesn't necessarily mean he has the gift of teaching. I think.


Pray for the peace of Jerusalem

 

[musterion]

In the interest of courtesy, intojoy, I've had you on Ignore for some days. If you're posting to someone else, fine, but I can't see you.

 

[intojoy]

Thank you musterdion (not worth re spelling I can't spell anyways)
Thx for the warning, I had no idea I was on ignore. Let me know if I get to come off. Take care brother


Pray for the peace of Jerusalem

 

[intojoy]

I wish the mods could put me on ignore. Then I could say anything I wanted to and get away with it!


Pray for the peace of Jerusalem

 

[Tambora]

In the interest of courtesy, intojoy, I've had you on Ignore for some days. If you're posting to someone else, fine, but I can't see you.

Now you can read it, unless you have me on ignore also.

Two gifts are pictured as the foundation of a building. The remaining gifts complete a picture of continual upward growth of the building. The building is us, the body of believers and our spiritual gifts .

having been built on the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Christ Jesus Himself being the corner stone, in whom the whole building, being fitted together, is growing into a holy temple in the Lord, in whom you also are being built together into a dwelling of God in the Spirit. (Ephesians 2:20-22 NASB)

This passage teaches that the gifts of Apostleship and Prophet are not available to us today. Which means that the highest gift available now is _______.

The gift of Teaching. The one who holds this gift has the highest gift available to the church.

A prerequisite to the gift of teacher is the gift of knowledge. Yet one can have the gift of knowledge and not have the gift of teaching. A pastor can have the gift of pastorship but that doesn't necessarily mean he has the gift of teaching. I think.


Pray for the peace of Jerusalem

 

[musterion]

No, you're not.