Theology Club: Bob Enyart's "The Plot" is he right?
- Thread starter way 2 go
- Start date
I'd like for those who keep saying this to show the phrase "Bride of Christ" in the Bible. Then to show Paul using it, as well as anyone other than Paul using the phrase "Body of Christ."
That is John, not the Lord. And he is speaking of the Lord, ex post facto.
way 2 go
Well-known member
did it show your exegesis
and settle doctrinal debates like:
are believers under the law?
is baptism necessary ?
does salvation by faith require works ?
can believers lose their salvation ?
must believers keep the sabbath ?
is the rapture before the tribulation ?
is there a rapture ?
this exegesis works
circumcised= Jew under the law
uncircumcised= body of Christ
musterion
Well-known member
All I can add to what's been said is exactly what's already been said - you won't get one. They'll CLAIM it's one, but it won't be. Never is. I've looked.
And mind you, this is coming from an ex-independent fundamental Baptist, which is about as close to a hard-core doctrinal bulldog as you can get these days. A friendly, patient MAD gave me THINGS THAT DIFFER and challenged me to refute it, to bleed red ink on it. I tried, for months. Threw the book against the wall once, it made me so angry. And then...here I am.
So what you WILL find is that those who simply cannot/will not see the revelation of the mystery for ALL that it means are quite happy with a doctrinal Mexican standoff. They'll put up strawmen and SWEAR you built them, gainsay whatever you say, ignore any number of holes you blow in their position, ignore direct questions they can't answer and pretend you never asked them, and keep repeating their same old points over and over again until one of you gets bored and disgusted and quits. Then! they usually have the unmitigated audacity to claim victory. That's why I left TOL a few years back.
BTW...some college kid a few years back supposedly wrote the end-all, be-all refutation of Joel Finck's THE MYSTERY. I have not seen it but heard it was hardly that. Point is, it's one of the few true attempts to take on MAD head-on and like the rest, it fails.
If anyone here wants to know just how rock solid MAD is, there is NO HUMAN BOOK ON EARTH I can recommend more highly than Stam's THE CONTROVERSY (now retitled HOLDING FAST THE FAITHFUL WORD). Why this one? Because it shows several doctrinal exchanges Stam had with some truly historic, recognizable names of 20th century Christianity...Ironside, DeHaan, Steadman, Rice and others. Each and every one of these cats got trounced but the book is worth buying to see just how arrogant, duplicitous and downright NASTY some of them really got back in the day when MAD was in the ascendency and a threat to water baptism (which is exactly what it amounted to for the opposers). Way2Go, if you don't have this book but are interested and promise to read it (if you haven't already) I may have a spare copy. PM me if interested.
Good night to all...
heir
TOL Subscriber
Right, because there are more than two gospels in the Bible.
musterion
Well-known member
If a professing Christian is keeping any aspect of the Law (to which he died in Christ!) in order to keep himself saved, stay saved, prove he's saved or to be sanctified, then at the very least he has believed a false gospel of works. He or she may have truly believed the Gospel and so are regenerated and eternally secure in Christ, but is now walking not by faith but by the flesh and is on the path to self-righteousness. He or she needs to repent of it, per Paul's rebuke to the Galatians. In most cases though, I fear it is the sign of a devout, religious, sincere unbeliever who has been deceived and has never been saved - the sign of a member of Christendom but not of Christ - for if we are saved or sanctified by keeping any aspect of the Law then Christ died for nothing, yes?
musterion
Well-known member
Yep, one of the people who went on my block list, quick.
Glad you found the book. Take time to read it, it's truly fascinating and will shed light on much.
heir
TOL Subscriber
The risk of writing any book is that you can get some things wrong and false premises lead to false conclusions. The Plot is no exception to that. It has problems. And since I know you will ask, a couple of them off the top of my head are:
it sees all Gentiles in the Bible as the same
Gentiles grafted in
And now that I think about it, I don't recall 1 Corinthians 15:1-4 KJV being declared as the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth in The Plot (but if someone could point me to the page where it is, I would be thrilled to see it there).
For the record and just so it's clear, I study to shew thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth (2 Timothy 2:15 KJV). I take issue with some of the things in The Plot because they are a hindrance to salvation, study and making all men see what is the fellowship of the mystery.
heir
TOL Subscriber
Of what, specifically?
Dialogos
Well-known member
Of the central premise.
That there are two separate gospels, one to the circumcised and one to the gentiles.
heir
TOL Subscriber
I'm not sure why people struggle with the fact that there is more than one gospel in the Bible: The gospel of the kingdom, the gospel of God, the gospel of Christ, the gospel of the circumcision, the gospel of the uncircumcision, the gospel of the grace of God...I'm sure I missed a couple. The angel preaches a gospel in Revelation. I don't know what that is called, but it's a gospel of judgment. There's more than one gospel in just this one verse (Galatians 2:7 KJV).
To be clear, there's only gospel that is the power of God to save today; that Christ died for our sins and that He was buried and rose again the third day.
1 Corinthians 15:1-4 KJV
It was a mystery hidden in the scriptures that Christ was dying for some men's sins until revealed to and through the apostle Paul (Romans 16:25 KJV, 1 Corinthians 2:6-8 KJV) and then later revealed that the gospel of the grace of God (Acts 20:24 KJV an extension of the gospel of Christ, but not "according to the scriptures") would save people like you and me (Acts 22:21 KJV, Ephesians 2:11-12 KJV). That too was a mystery until revealed to and through the apostle Paul, but a different mystery, the mystery of the gospel (Ephesians 6:19 KJV). It was hid in God, unsearchable (Ephesians 3:1-9 KJV)!
And what a glorious truth! You should thank God that He had a mystery concerning your salvation or you would have had no hope! I certainly do!
musterion
Well-known member
So why are you in this forum? That's a sincere, honest question because it sounds as if you're mind is quite firmly made up, esp. after having read Bob's book, which was pretty good.
way 2 go
Well-known member
they are believing the gospel of the kingdom, to the Jews.
i understand what your saying.
some rely on the law when its about a relationship.
correct
way 2 go
Well-known member
there are Jews and gentiles, that covers everyone
after Israel was cut off
no one says you have to believe the plot to be saved.
this exegesis works
circumcised vs uncircumcised
hindrance to salvation
heir
TOL Subscriber
Were there Gentiles called Jews?
Were there Gentiles who had hope and were in the promise and others who had no hope and were strangers from the covenants of promise in the Bible?
I'll get right to it.
Romans 11:19-22 KJV Thou wilt say then, The branches were broken off, that I might be graffed in. 20 Well; because of unbelief they were broken off, and thou standest by faith. Be not highminded, but fear: 21 For if God spared not the natural branches, take heed lest he also spare not thee. 22 Behold therefore the goodness and severity of God: on them which fell, severity; but toward thee, goodness, if thou continue in his goodness: otherwise thou also shalt be cut off.
Romans 11:19-22 KJV cannot be speaking about us yet The Plot (Bob) says it is on or around pages 57-60 and again on page 69 (and no doubt, elsewhere). How could it possibly be speaking of us saved and sealed members of the Body of Christ? It can't be! We can't be cut off! When we believe on the Lord Jesus Christ; that Christ died for our sins, was buried and rose again on the third day (1 Corinthians 15:1-4 KJV) we are saved and sealed with that Holy Spirit of promise (the earnest of our inheritance) unto the day of redemption (Ephesians 1:13-14 KJV, Ephesians 4:30 KJV)
So what was going on in Romans 11?
At that "present time" when Paul wrote the letter to the Romans there was a remnant according to the election of grace which God foreknew (Romans 11:1-6 KJV) would believe the gospel of Christ (1 Corinthians 15:1-4 KJV) and be established into the Body of Christ.
The Romans had a standing in the olive tree by faith (faith in the gospel of God Romans 1:1-4 KJV). It was a faith praised by Paul (Romans 1:8 KJV) but it was not the mutual faith of them and Paul (Romans 1:12 KJV). These (at least one that Paul points out to use as an example) were resting in the law making their boast of God (Romans 2:17 KJV) and the tree was coming down (so to speak). Israel had fallen (Romans 11:11 KJV) and these Romans needed to continue in the goodness of God or they too would be cut off (Romans 11:22 KJV).
There was only one way to continue in the goodness of God and that was to be established into the Body of Christ by Paul's my gospel, and the preaching of Jesus Christ according to the revelation of the mystery which was kept secret since the world began, but now (at that time) was made manifest (Romans 16:25-27 KJV). That's why Paul "longed to see" them (Romans 1:11 KJV). He was "ready to preach the gospel to you that are in Rome also" (Romans 1:15-17 KJV! And all through the Acts period, we see Paul gathering the remnant into the Body.
That is the context of Romans 11 and the "grafted in". It has nothing to do with you, me or anyone else today in the dispensation of the grace of God (Ephesians 3:1-6 KJV)! You can't be grafted in without the possibility of being cut off. They're connected. By identifying us as "grafted in", The Plot (Bob) and those who repeat it are really telling others they can be cut off. It just might lead someone into thinking there is something that they need to do to be saved or stay saved as the text of Romans 11:19-22 KJV can be (and is often) twisted and used to manipulate people into making a fair shew in the flesh (Galatians 6:12-13 KJV). It should be dropped/edited out of The Plot. It's untrue and dangerous. Hence my comment:
Of course not. I never said that or even implied it. They need trust the Lord believing the gospel of Christ (1 Corinthians 15:1-4 KJV). I'm having trouble finding it declared as the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth in The Plot. It may very well be there, but I missed it. :idunno: Do you have a page number?
I'm not sure why you said this here, but...were there no circumcised Gentiles? What were they called, again? Who are the "we" "who first trusted in Christ" (Ephesians 1:12 KJV) and the "ye" that "also trusted" (Ephesians 1:13 KJV)? IOW, who were the two groups in the one Body?
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heir
TOL Subscriber
There are other issues with The Plot and no doubt others who have much more knowledge of the scriptures than I. I hope to see those people in the thread so we can as Paul beseeches us to:
1 Corinthians 1:10 KJV Now I beseech you, brethren, by the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, that ye all speak the same thing, and that there be no divisions among you; but that ye be perfectly joined together in the same mind and in the same judgment.
We need to get on the same page; the scriptures being the final authority.
1 Corinthians 1:10 KJV Now I beseech you, brethren, by the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, that ye all speak the same thing, and that there be no divisions among you; but that ye be perfectly joined together in the same mind and in the same judgment.
We need to get on the same page; the scriptures being the final authority.