Theology Club: Bob Enyart's "The Plot" is he right?

[way 2 go]

Those two verses alone prove that those who were under the law did not have to do works to be saved.

was David uncircumcised ?

 

[way 2 go]

Read psalm 69.

ok

 

[Nick M]

No, what is funny is how you want nothing to do with the verses which I quoted that prove that those who lived under the law were saved by faith alone and enjoyed eternal security.

You showed no such thing. Was Abraham not justified when he offered up his son Isaac?

 

[Jerry Shugart]

was David uncircumcised ?

Of course not!

But that does nothing to disprove the fact that he received the imputed righteousnessof God APART from works:

"But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness. Even as David also describeth the blessedness of the man, unto whom God imputeth righteousness without works, Saying, Blessed are they whose iniquities are forgiven, and whose sins are covered. Blessed is the man to whom the Lord will not impute sin" (Ro.4:5-8).​

You seem intent on trying to prove that what Paul wrote about David was in error.

 

[Jerry Shugart]

You showed no such thing. Was Abraham not justified when he offered up his son Isaac?

Of course you did not even attempt to address the following verse which I quoted:

" Therefore it is of faith, that it might be by grace; to the end the promise might be sure to all the seed; not to that only which is of the law, but to that also which is of the faith of Abraham; who is the father of us all" (Ro.4:16).​

Since those who lived under the law were saved by grace through faith it is certain that works played no part in their salvation.

In regard to what is said about Abraham in the book of James were can see that what is under discussion is what one man may know about another man's faith:

" Yea, a man may say, Thou hast faith, and I have works: shew me thy faith without thy works, and I will shew thee my faith by my works" (James 2:18).​

Sir Robert Anderson, the father of systemized Mid Acts Dispensationalism, had the following to say about Abraham:

"Paul's Epistle (Romans) unfolds the mind and purposes of God, revealing His righteousness and wrath. The Epistle of James addresses men upon their own ground. The one deals with justification as between the sinner and God, the other as between man and man. In the one, therefore, the word is, 'To him that worketh not, but believeth'. In the other it is, 'What is the profit if a man say he hath faith, and have not works?' Not 'If a man have faith', but 'If a man say he hath faith' proving that, in the case supposed, the individual is not dealing with God, but arguing the matter with his brethren. God, who searches the heart, does not need to judge by works, which are but the outward manifestation of faith within; but man can judge only by appearances...He (Abraham) was justified by faith when judged by God, for God knows the heart. He was justified by works when judged by his fellow men, for man can only read the life " [emphasis added] (Anderson, The Gospel and Its Ministry, [Kregel Publications, 1978], pp.160-161).​

 

[way 2 go]

Since those who lived under the law were saved by grace through faith it is certain that works played no part in their salvation.

:nono:

In regard to what is said about Abraham in the book of James were can see that what is under discussion is what one man may know about another man's faith:

" Yea, a man may say, Thou hast faith, and I have works: shew me thy faith without thy works, and I will shew thee my faith by my works" (James 2:18).​

Sir Robert Anderson, the father of systemized Mid Acts Dispensationalism, had the following to say about Abraham:

"Paul's Epistle (Romans) unfolds the mind and purposes of God, revealing His righteousness and wrath. The Epistle of James addresses men upon their own ground. The one deals with justification as between the sinner and God, the other as between man and man. In the one, therefore, the word is, 'To him that worketh not, but believeth'. In the other it is, 'What is the profit if a man say he hath faith, and have not works?' Not 'If a man have faith', but 'If a man say he hath faith' proving that, in the case supposed, the individual is not dealing with God, but arguing the matter with his brethren. God, who searches the heart, does not need to judge by works, which are but the outward manifestation of faith within; but man can judge only by appearances...He (Abraham) was justified by faith when judged by God, for God knows the heart. He was justified by works when judged by his fellow men, for man can only read the life " [emphasis added] (Anderson, The Gospel and Its Ministry, [Kregel Publications, 1978], pp.160-161).​

sorry “justification before men” is false

1.
“justification before men”
Christians are not to do their good works before men
James would be teaching contrary to Jesus teaching

Mat 6:1 "Beware of practicing your righteousness before other people in order to be seen
by them, for then you will have no reward from your Father who is in heaven

Mat 6:4 so that your giving may be in secret. And your Father who sees in secret will reward you


2.
“justification before men”
Abraham was not justified before men when he was going to offer his son Issac because there was no one else around

3.
people in Abraham's time sacrificed their children to idols
so he wouldn't be justified to the people of his time he would be a heathen like them

4.
God does not say now men know
He says now I know

Gen 22:12 He said, "Do not lay your hand on the boy or do anything to him,
for now I know that you fear God, seeing you have not withheld your son, your only son, from me."

 

[way 2 go]

Originally Posted by way 2 go View Post
was David uncircumcised ?

Of course not!

But that does nothing to disprove the fact that he received the imputed righteousnessof God APART from works:

circumcision is a work

Gen 17:10 This is my covenant, which you shall keep, between me and you and your offspring after you: Every male among you shall be circumcised.

 

[Jerry Shugart]

:nono:

So you think thay even though someone is saved by grace through faith they must also add "works" in order to be saved?

sorry “justification before men” is false

" And he said unto them, Ye are they which justify yourselves before men; but God knoweth your hearts: for that which is highly esteemed among men is abomination in the sight of God" (Lk.16:15).​

circumcision is a work

But being circumcized has nothing to do with getting saved:

"Even as David also describeth the blessedness of the man, unto whom God imputeth righteousness without works, Saying, Blessed are they whose iniquities are forgiven, and whose sins are covered. Blessed is the man to whom the Lord will not impute sin. Cometh this blessedness then upon the circumcision only, or upon the uncircumcision also?" (Ro.4:6-9).​

 

[way 2 go]

So you think thay even though someone is saved by grace through faith they must also add "works" in order to be saved?

no

Luk 16:14 The Pharisees, who were lovers of money, heard all these things, and they ridiculed him.

" And he said unto them, Ye are they which justify yourselves before men; but God knoweth your hearts: for that which is highly esteemed among men is abomination in the sight of God" (Lk.16:15).​

:noway: that's Jesus teaching not to seek to be justified before men

James knew "God knoweth your hearts"
he wasn't teaching people “justification before men”


Sir Robert Anderson is wrong

in the light of my last post you have nothing

maybe you should read "The Plot"

But being circumcized has nothing to do with getting saved:

not now but back then ,yes
Gen 17:10 This is my covenant, which you shall keep, between me and you and your offspring after you: Every male among you shall be circumcised.

"Even as David also describeth the blessedness of the man, unto whom God imputeth righteousness without works, Saying, Blessed are they whose iniquities are forgiven, and whose sins are covered. Blessed is the man to whom the Lord will not impute sin. Cometh this blessedness then upon the circumcision only, or upon the uncircumcision also?" (Ro.4:6-9).​

you love this verse .

do you think every Jew had this righteousness imputed to them?

we Christians do
now

but

did saul ?

1Sa_16:14 Now the Spirit of the LORD departed from Saul, and a harmful spirit from the LORD tormented him.
:nono:

 

[Jerry Shugart]

do you think every Jew had this righteousness imputed to them?

Of course not every one of them but instead all of those who believed:

"Even as David also describeth the blessedness of the man, unto whom God imputeth righteousness without works, Saying, Blessed are they whose iniquities are forgiven, and whose sins are covered. Blessed is the man to whom the Lord will not impute sin. Cometh this blessedness then upon the circumcision only, or upon the uncircumcision also?" (Ro.4:6-9).​

if you still continue to insist that the circumcision must do works in order to be saved then you do not even know what "blessing" is spoken of in this passage.

And I asked you the following question:

So you think thay even though someone is saved by grace through faith they must also add "works" in order to be saved?​

To this question you correctly answered "no."

no

In this verse we can see that those under the law were saved by grace through faith:

" Therefore it is of faith, that it might be by grace; to the end the promise might be sure to all the seed; not to that only which is of the law, but to that also which is of the faith of Abraham; who is the father of us all" (Ro.4:16).​

Even after seeing this verse you continue to throw your reason to the wind and insist that those under the law could not be saved without keeping the law.

And here James tells us exactly how those under the law were saved:

"Of his own will begat he us with the word of truth, that we should be a kind of firstfruits of his creatures" (James 1:18).​

And that matches what Peter wrote here:

"Being born again, not of corruptible seed, but of incorruptible, by the word of God... And this is the word which by the gospel is preached unto you" (1 Pet.1:23,25).​

The Lord Jesus said the following to the Jews who lived under the Law:

"Very truly I tell you, whoever hears my word and believes him who sent me has eternal life and will not be judged but has crossed over from death to life" (Jn.5:24).​

Those under the law and believed received eternal life and they will not be judged. But according to you those under the Law were not saved by faith alone because they had to do the works of the law to be saved.

But that idea is contradicted by the Lord Jesus' own words spoken to a woman in the following passage:

"And he said unto her, Thy sins are forgiven. And they that sat at meat with him began to say within themselves, Who is this that forgiveth sins also? And he said to the woman, Thy faith hath saved thee; go in peace" (Lk.7:48-50).​

All I can do is point out these truths to you. Whether you believe them or not is up to you.

 

[way 2 go]

Originally Posted by way 2 go
do you think every Jew had this righteousness imputed to them?

Of course not every one of them but instead all of those who believed:
.

when did Saul have righteousness imputed to him ?

1Sa_16:14 Now the Spirit of the LORD departed from Saul, and a harmful spirit from the LORD tormented him.

 

[Jerry Shugart]

when did Saul have righteousness imputed to him ?

1Sa_16:14 Now the Spirit of the LORD departed from Saul, and a harmful spirit from the LORD tormented him.

So you think that answers what I said and all the verses which I quoted? Your response is about the saddest thing I have ever seen on this forum.

You prove that you are going to believe what you want no matter what the Scriptures say.

 

[way 2 go]

You prove that you are going to believe what you want no matter what the Scriptures say.

:doh: thats what i think about you

 

[way 2 go]

no one could ever be saved apart from Grace at any time.

"Even as David also describeth the blessedness of the man, unto whom God imputeth righteousness without works, Saying, Blessed are they whose iniquities are forgiven, and whose sins are covered. Blessed is the man to whom the Lord will not impute sin. Cometh this blessedness then upon the circumcision only, or upon the uncircumcision also?" (Ro.4:6-9).​

Gal 3:22 But the Scripture imprisoned everything under sin, so that the promise
by faith in Jesus Christ might be given to those who believe.

was Faith in Jesus Christ preached in the dispensation of Moses ?


Gal 3:23 Now before faith came, we were held captive under the law, imprisoned until the coming faith would be revealed.
Gal 3:24 So then, the law was our guardian until Christ came, in order that we might be justified by faith.

Before Jesus works of the law are necessary
after Jesus justified by faith

Gal 3:25 But now that faith has come, we are no longer under a guardian,

Moses gave the law ,not grace

if you still continue to insist that the circumcision must do works in order to be saved then you do not even know what "blessing" is spoken of in this passage.

Lev 4:27 "If anyone of the common people sins unintentionally in
doing any one of the things that by the LORD's commandments ought not to be done, and realizes his guilt,
Lev 4:28 or the sin which he has committed is made known to him, he shall bring for his offering a goat,
a female without blemish, for his sin which he has committed.
Lev 4:31 And all its fat he shall remove, as the fat is removed from the peace offerings,
and the priest shall burn it on the altar for a pleasing aroma to the LORD.
And the priest shall make atonement for him, and he shall be forgiven.

your saying this work was not necessary ?

And I asked you the following question:

So you think thay even though someone is saved by grace through faith they must also add "works" in order to be saved?​

To this question you correctly answered "no."

today ,no

In the dispensation of Moses yes

In this verse we can see that those under the law were saved by grace through faith:

" Therefore it is of faith, that it might be by grace; to the end the promise might be sure to all the seed; not to that only which is of the law, but to that also which is of the faith of Abraham; who is the father of us all" (Ro.4:16).​

Even after seeing this verse you continue to throw your reason to the wind and insist that those under the law could not be saved without keeping the law.

I like how you acknowledge that they were under the law
but didn't matter whether they kept it.

And here James tells us exactly how those under the law were saved:

"Of his own will begat he us with the word of truth, that we should be a kind of firstfruits of his creatures" (James 1:18).​

And that matches what Peter wrote here:

"Being born again, not of corruptible seed, but of incorruptible, by the word of God... And this is the word which by the gospel is preached unto you" (1 Pet.1:23,25).​

what You have here is what Jesus taught them
where does Moses teach this ?

The Lord Jesus said the following to the Jews who lived under the Law:

"Very truly I tell you, whoever hears my word and believes him who sent me has eternal life and will not be judged but has crossed over from death to life" (Jn.5:24).​

Mat 13:17 For truly, I say to you, many prophets and righteous people longed to see what you see, and did not see it, and to hear what you hear, and did not hear it.

Those under the law and believed received eternal life and they will not be judged. But according to you those under the Law were not saved by faith alone because they had to do the works of the law to be saved.

Not according to me .God gave the law and what to do if you broke it
but sometimes there was no atonement to be made
as in Saul

1Sa_16:14 Now the Spirit of the LORD departed from Saul, and a harmful spirit from the LORD tormented him.

but David received grace

Psa 32:1 A Maskil of David. Blessed is the one whose transgression is forgiven, whose sin is covered.

All I can do is point out these truths to you. Whether you believe them or not is up to you.

no one could be saved apart from Grace at any time.

your position of works were not necessary under the law is untenable.

 

[Jerry Shugart]

no one could be saved apart from Grace at any time.

your position of works were not necessary under the law is untenable.

So even those under the law were saved by grace through faith you say that they could not be saved unless they did "works" of the law.

You do not even understand that if it takes works to be saved then that salvation cannot be described as being on the principle of grace:

" For what saith the scripture? Abraham believed God, and it was counted unto him for righteousness. Now to him that worketh is the reward not reckoned of grace, but of debt" (Ro.4:3-4).​

And make no mistake about it, those who lived under the law were saved by grace through faith:

"Therefore it is of faith, that it might be by grace; to the end the promise might be sure to all the seed; not to that only which is of the law, but to that also which is of the faith of Abraham; who is the father of us all" (Ro.4:16).​

I just do not see how this discussion is ever going to be fruitful for either of us as long as you continue to insist that "works" are compatible with "grace."

 

[Lighthouse]

I've shown plenty of things that differ, but I can't make you see something you refuse to.


God forgave the sin/sins debt nearly 2000 years before we were ever born when God was in Christ reconciling the world unto Himself, not imputing their trespasses unto them (2 Corinthians 5:19 KJV). I didn't "repent" of anything. I trusted the Lord after hearing and believing the word of truth, the gospel of my salvation (1 Corinthians 15:1-4 KJV, Ephesians 1:13-14 KJV. The point stands. Our pattern for forgiving one another is Ephesians 4:32 KJV.

2 Timothy 2:15 KJV

Are you a Calvinist now?

And "repent" means to change one's mind, so you did repent.

 

[heir]

Are you a Calvinist now?

No. When did Christ die for your sins? When was He delivered for your offences?

And "repent" means to change one's mind, so you did repent.

I know what repent means. I did not "change my mind".

I trusted the Lord after hearing and believing the word of truth, the gospel of my salvation. That is how we are saved and sealed.


Ephesians 1:13 In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise,14 Which is the earnest of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession, unto the praise of his glory.

I am now a fellowheir and of the same Body with those who first trusted in Christ (Ephesians 1:12 KJV beginning with Paul 1 Timothy 1:16 KJV) and partaker of His promise in Christ by the gospel.

Ephesians 3:6 KJV That the Gentiles should be fellowheirs, and of the same body, and partakers of his promise in Christ by the gospel:

I join Paul in his endevour to make all men see the fellowship of the mystery.

Ephesians 3:9 And to make all men see what is the fellowship of the mystery, which from the beginning of the world hath been hid in God, who created all things by Jesus Christ:

Ephesians 3:10 To the intent that now unto the principalities and powers in heavenly places might be known by the church the manifold wisdom of God,

Ephesians 3:11 According to the eternal purpose which he purposed in Christ Jesus our Lord:

Ephesians 3:12 In whom we have boldness and access with confidence by the faith of him.

 

[Lighthouse]

No. When did Christ die for your sins? When was He delivered for your offences?

You want the specific date and time?

I received the gift when I repented.

I know what repent means. I did not "change my mind".

Your mind wasn't changed regarding Christ?

I trusted the Lord after hearing and believing the word of truth, the gospel of my salvation. That is how we are saved and sealed.

And thus your mind was changed from unbelief to belief [trust].

Ephesians 1:13 In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise,14 Which is the earnest of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession, unto the praise of his glory.

I am now a fellowheir and of the same Body with those who first trusted in Christ (Ephesians 1:12 KJV beginning with Paul 1 Timothy 1:16 KJV) and partaker of His promise in Christ by the gospel.

Ephesians 3:6 KJV That the Gentiles should be fellowheirs, and of the same body, and partakers of his promise in Christ by the gospel:

I join Paul in his endevour to make all men see the fellowship of the mystery.

Ephesians 3:9 And to make all men see what is the fellowship of the mystery, which from the beginning of the world hath been hid in God, who created all things by Jesus Christ:

Ephesians 3:10 To the intent that now unto the principalities and powers in heavenly places might be known by the church the manifold wisdom of God,

Ephesians 3:11 According to the eternal purpose which he purposed in Christ Jesus our Lord:

Ephesians 3:12 In whom we have boldness and access with confidence by the faith of him.

And?

 

[heir]

You want the specific date and time?

I received the gift when I repented.

I asked you when Christ died for your sins and when was He delivered for your offences. Simple questions with a ball park answer of "about 2000 years ago" would have sufficed. Why couldn't you answer? Will your open theism not allow you to? Were your sins non existent when Christ died for them? Instead you said, "when I received the gift when I repented" so I'll go with that...

Christ didn't die for your sins when you "received the gift when you repented". That is one of the saddest things I have ever heard from someone named a brother.

There was an event when God was in Christ, reconciling the world unto Himself, not imputing their trespasses unto them (2 Corinthians 5:19 KJV), when He Who knew no sin was made to be sin for us that we might be made the righteousness of God in Him (2 Corinthians 5:21 KJV), was delivered for our offences, died for our sins, was buried and rose again the third day for our justification (Romans 4:25 KJV, 1 Corinthians 15:1-4 KJV). It was a ONE TIME EVENT! Christ is not crawling back up on that cross to die for men's sins every single time someone places their trust in Him.

Your mind wasn't changed regarding Christ?

And thus your mind was changed from unbelief to belief [trust].

You guys really are stuck on the word repent. You love to tell people what to do. lol

I could have no opinion about Christ and one day hear the gospel preached and trust the Lord believing it for salvation and be saved and sealed. No "repenting", just trusting Him believing.

People don't have to "repent/change their mind" for a gift. They receive the offer.

People aren't blinded by the god of this world because they "repent not", but because they "believe not" (2 Corinthians 4:3-4 KJV).

People don't go to hell because they didn't "repent". They go to hell for receiving not the love of the truth that they might be saved (2 Thessalonians 2:10 KJV).

Paul writes that we are to examine ourselves whether we be in the faith (2 Corinthians 13:5 KJV). A person can "repent" until they're blue in the face, but if there's never been a moment when they trusted the Lord for salvation believing Christ died for THEIR sins, was buried and rose again the third day (1 Corinthians 15:1-4 KJV), they're not in the faith.

And?

The fellowship of the mystery is not in "The Plot" either. Which is really the topic of this thread...

Addition

I originally said to you that God forgave the sin/sins debt nearly 2000 years before we were ever born when God was in Christ reconciling the world unto Himself, not imputing their trespasses unto them (2 Corinthians 5:19 KJV). I didn't "repent" of anything. I trusted the Lord after hearing and believing the word of truth, the gospel of my salvation (1 Corinthians 15:1-4 KJV, Ephesians 1:13-14 KJV. The point stands. Our pattern for forgiving one another is Ephesians 4:32 KJV.
And you said

And He forgave us when we repented.

That's not true. We were forgiven when we were quickened together with Him.

Colossians 2:13 And you, being dead in your sins and the uncircumcision of your flesh, hath he quickened together with him, having forgiven you all trespasses;

Christ was quickened 2000 years ago!

 

[Jerry Shugart]

Christ is not crawling back up on that cross to die for men's sins every single time someone places their trust in Him.

No, but no one is baptized or identified with His death until they believe:

"Know ye not, that so many of us as were baptized into Jesus Christ were baptized into his death? Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life" (Ro.6:3-4).