Theology Club: Is MAD doctrine correct?

[intojoy]

Paul spent 3 yrs being taught by Christ

Paul pays a social visit for 3 days to meet Peter

14 years later, Paul takes Titus to James and Peter to ask them if Titus needs be circumcised in order to follow Christ. Privately.

Neither James nor Peter had spent sufficient time with Paul to have taught Paul anything. Only a 3 day get together.

Yet James is the leader of the Jerusalem church.

Paul is asking (privately) Peter and James whether or not Paul's gospel was in error. Titus is Paul's test case. If Peter and James insist that Titus be circumcised then Paul would have been wrong.

But it was the Judaizers who did not have apostolic authority that were wrong. No where does it say in the word that Peter and James were corrected by Paul.

 

[intojoy]

For fourteen years Paul had no communication with James and Peter. Yet he takes Titus to test what he was teaching in Galatia with what the Jerusalem church had been teaching for 14 yrs:

And "certain men" (not apostles, no apostolic authority) came down from Judaea and taught the brethren, saying, Except ye be circumcised after the custom of Moses, ye cannot be saved. (False gospel)

And when Paul and Barnabas had no small dissension and questioning with them, the brethren appointed that Paul and Barnabas, and certain other of them, should go up to Jerusalem

unto the apostles and elders
("Apostles - Elders" of the church)

about this question. (Circumcision)

And when they were come to Jerusalem, they were received of the church and the apostles and the elders, (they did not know each other)


and they rehearsed all things that God had done with them. (Paul's church planting in Galatia)


But there rose up certain of the sect of the Pharisees (the followers of Yeshua were a sect of Judaism the Pharisees who controlled Judaism daughter to gain control of this Jewish sect of followers of Christ by instituting circumcision which was the means of subjection to the Law)


who believed, saying, It is needful to circumcise them, and to charge them to keep the law of Moses.

And the apostles and the elders were gathered together to consider of this matter. (*Acts‬ *15‬:*1-2, 4-6‬ ASV)

 

[intojoy]

Now therefore why make ye trial of God, that ye should put a yoke upon the neck of the disciples which neither our fathers nor we were able to bear? But we believe that we shall be saved through the grace of the Lord Jesus, in like manner as they. (*Acts‬ *15‬:*10-11‬ ASV)

From Peter
To Pharisees

 

[intojoy]

Wherefore my judgment is, that we trouble not them that from among the Gentiles turn to God; but that we write unto them, that they abstain from the pollutions of idols, and from fornication, and from what is strangled, and from blood. (*Acts‬ *15‬:*19-20‬ ASV)

James' decision and judgement

 

[intojoy]

Forasmuch as we have heard that certain who went out from us have troubled you with words, subverting your souls; to whom we gave no commandment; it seemed good unto us, having come to one accord, to choose out men and send them unto you with our beloved Barnabas and Paul, men that have hazarded their lives for the name of our Lord Jesus Christ. We have sent therefore Judas and Silas, who themselves also shall tell you the same things by word of mouth. (*Acts‬ *15‬:*24-27‬ ASV)

Paul accepts the authority of James and takes the Jerusalem letter back with him as he was told.

 

[intojoy]

Then after the space of fourteen years I went up again to Jerusalem with Barnabas, taking Titus also with me. And I went up by revelation; and I laid before them the gospel which I preach among the Gentiles but privately before them who were of repute, lest by any means I should be running, or had run, in vain. But not even Titus who was with me, being a Greek, was compelled to be circumcised: and that because of the false brethren privily brought in, who came in privily to spy out our liberty which we have in Christ Jesus, that they might bring us into bondage: to whom we gave place in the way of subjection, no, not for an hour; that the truth of the gospel might continue with you. But from those who were reputed to be somewhat (whatsoever they were, it maketh no matter to me: God accepteth not man’s person)-- they, I say, who were of repute imparted nothing to me: (*Galatians‬ *2‬:*1-6‬ ASV)

It takes less than an hour for James and Peter to confirm that they preached the same gospel. The Judaizers are labeled as false brethren - unsaved.

 

[heir]

Another abused proof text you guys you to negate water baptism practiced by Paul?!

Why did Paul say one baptism if there is to be two?

The ONE gospel is for Jew and Gentile.

made up term

Paul also had a unique, expanded calling to take this same gospel to the ends of the earth as seen in the Great Commission (not limited to Jewish Christians) Mt. 28; Acts 1:8, etc.

MUD slinger

 

[heir]

This is the correct view of Acts.

You don't have a clue what was going on in the Acts of the Apostles.

 

[heir]

Another abused proof text you guys you to negate water baptism practiced by Paul?!

The ONE gospel is for Jew and Gentile. Jesus, Paul, Peter, etc. had a normative ministry pattern to Jews first. Paul also had a unique, expanded calling to take this same gospel to the ends of the earth as seen in the Great Commission (not limited to Jewish Christians) Mt. 28; Acts 1:8, etc.

Romans 16:25 Now to him that is of power to stablish you according to my gospel, and the preaching of Jesus Christ, according to the revelation of the mystery, which was kept secret since the world began,Romans 16:26 But now is made manifest, and by the scriptures of the prophets, according to the commandment of the everlasting God, made known to all nations for the obedience of faith:

1 Corinthians 2:6 Howbeit we speak wisdom among them that are perfect: yet not the wisdom of this world, nor of the princes of this world, that come to nought:

1 Corinthians 2:7 But we speak the wisdom of God in a mystery, even the hidden wisdom, which God ordained before the world unto our glory:

1 Corinthians 2:8 Which none of the princes of this world knew: for had they known it, they would not have crucified the Lord of glory.

Galatians 1:11 But I certify you, brethren, that the gospel which was preached of me is not after man.

Galatians 1:12 For I neither received it of man, neither was I taught it, but by the revelation of Jesus Christ.

 

[heir]

There is one true gospel post-cross

made up

 

[heir]

Peter, James, John, Paul were all on the same page. They received Paul because he taught consistent with the gospel they believed

Peter, James and John didn't know “that gospel” that Paul preached among the Gentiles until he "went up by revelation, and communicated" it unto them. It was THEN (not before) that they saw that the gospel of the uncircumcision was committed unto Paul. It was THEN (not before) that they “perceived the grace” that was given unto Paul!

Galatians 2:1-2 KJV Then fourteen years after I went up again to Jerusalem with Barnabas, and took Titus with me also. 2 And I went up by revelation, and communicated unto them that gospel which I preach among the Gentiles, but privately to them which were of reputation, lest by any means I should run, or had run, in vain.

Galatians 2:6 KJV But of these who seemed to be somewhat, (whatsoever they were, it maketh no matter to me: God accepteth no man's person for they who seemed to be somewhat in conference added nothing to me:

They added nothing to Paul?! If they had been preaching the same gospel (as godrulz would have us to believe) surely THEY must have added something to Paul. According to the scriptures they DIDN'T!

BUT CONTRARIWISE,…!

Galatians 2:7-9 KJV But contrariwise, when they saw that the gospel of the uncircumcision was committed unto me, as the gospel of the circumcision was unto Peter; 8 (For he that wrought effectually in Peter to the apostleship of the circumcision, the same was mighty in me toward the Gentiles 9 And when James, Cephas, and John, who seemed to be pillars, perceived the grace that was given unto me, they gave to me and Barnabas the right hands of fellowship; that we should go unto the heathen, and they unto the circumcision.

 

[godrulz]

Why did Paul say one baptism if there is to be two?
made up term MUD slinger

Using your logic, there is only one Lord, so the trinity is not true? The Father and Jesus are each called Lord.

There are various possible interpretations of the verse, but not in isolation of other verses that show there are various baptisms mentioned. You proof text out of context to support MAD. This is not exegesis.

The burden of proof is on you and your two gospel post-cross theories unheard of for practically 2000 years of the greatest minds in Christianity (including Paul).

 

[godrulz]

You don't have a clue what was going on in the Acts of the Apostles.

Really? Says the MAD/KJVO heretic?

The best minds over 2000 years of Christian history/theology disagree with your modern views.

 

[godrulz]

Romans 16:25 Now to him that is of power to stablish you according to my gospel, and the preaching of Jesus Christ, according to the revelation of the mystery, which was kept secret since the world began,Romans 16:26 But now is made manifest, and by the scriptures of the prophets, according to the commandment of the everlasting God, made known to all nations for the obedience of faith:

1 Corinthians 2:6 Howbeit we speak wisdom among them that are perfect: yet not the wisdom of this world, nor of the princes of this world, that come to nought:

1 Corinthians 2:7 But we speak the wisdom of God in a mystery, even the hidden wisdom, which God ordained before the world unto our glory:

1 Corinthians 2:8 Which none of the princes of this world knew: for had they known it, they would not have crucified the Lord of glory.

Galatians 1:11 But I certify you, brethren, that the gospel which was preached of me is not after man.

Galatians 1:12 For I neither received it of man, neither was I taught it, but by the revelation of Jesus Christ.

All consistent with Acts 2 disp views or normative NT theology. They do not prove MAD at all (exegesis, not eisegesis, get it?).

Gal. 2:7 in context and Greek grammar (genitive), not MAD, not KJVO=demarcation of ministry; two true gospels post-cross is contradicted by all of the NT, context, grammar.

 

[heir]

Using your logic, there is only one Lord, so the trinity is not true? The Father and Jesus are each called Lord.

Why did Paul say one baptism if there is to be two?

 

[heir]

There are various possible interpretations of the verse, but not in isolation of other verses that show there are various baptisms mentioned.

There are many baptisms in the Bible, but there is only ONE baptism today and it is BY ONE SPIRIT into ONE BODY (the Spirit is the baptizer!).

1 Corinthians 12:13 For by one Spirit are we all baptized into one body, whether we be Jews or Gentiles, whether we be bond or free; and have been all made to drink into one Spirit.

When one trusts the Lord after hearing and believing the word of truth (1 Corinthians 15:1-4) they are baptized by one Spirit in to one Body (1 Corinthians 12:13).

It is a baptism (identification) into Christ's death,

Romans 6:3 Know ye not, that so many of us as were baptized into Jesus Christ were baptized into his death? 4 Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life. 5 For if we have been planted together in the likeness of his death, we shall be also in the likeness of his resurrection:

It's a Spirit baptism into Christ,

Galatians 3:27 For as many of you as have been baptized into Christ have put on Christ.

It is the one baptism of Ephesians 4 that we are to endevour to keep.

Ephesians 4:1 I therefore, the prisoner of the Lord, beseech you that ye walk worthy of the vocation wherewith ye are called, 2 With all lowliness and meekness, with longsuffering, forbearing one another in love; 3 Endeavouring to keep the unity of the Spirit in the bond of peace. 4 There is one body, and one Spirit, even as ye are called in one hope of your calling; 5 One Lord, one faith, one baptism, 6 One God and Father of all, who is above all, and through all, and in you all.

 

[heir]

All consistent with Acts 2 disp views or normative NT theology.

Those who believe the church, the Body of Christ, started in Acts 2 are not dispensational. They are wrong dividers. The gospel in Acts 2 is NOT the gospel that Paul preached.

 

[godrulz]

Why did Paul say one baptism if there is to be two?

Why did He say one Lord if God is triune and Father and Son are both called LORD?

 

[godrulz]

Those who believe the church started in Acts 2 are not dispensational. They are wrong dividers. The gospel in Acts 2 is NOT the gospel that Paul preached.

There is no other way to be saved after the cross than grace by faith in the person and work of Christ. MAD says Acts 2 does not teach this. You are wrong (read it slowly).

 

[godrulz]

Those who believe the church, the Body of Christ, started in Acts 2 are not dispensational. They are wrong dividers. The gospel in Acts 2 is NOT the gospel that Paul preached.

Virtually all Christians through the centuries see Acts 2 as the start of the Church, Jew/Gentile one in Christ through faith in Christ. It is the promise of Christ. The Spirit births the church in power and glory. Moving this pivotal point to a Christian murder's conviction instead of Spirit/Christ is galling and wrong.

Your view is hyper-disp/ultradisp. (divides too much) The great dispensationalists have safely rejected it if it was even on their radar (it is such an inconsequential view because it is wrong). MAD is a distinct minority view within the family of dispensationalism. If you were not so anti-intellectual, you would not be so arrogant in your ignorance.