Theology Club: Is MAD doctrine correct?

Guyver

Guyver

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Do we do miraculous works and heal people; or do we call for Elders of the Church to pray for sick people?

John 5:36

John 14:12

James 5

" Is anyone among you suffering? Let him pray. Is anyone cheerful? Let him sing psalms. Is anyone among you sick? Let him call for the elders of the church, and let them pray over him, anointing him with oil in the name of the Lord. And the prayer of faith will save the sick, and the Lord will raise him up. And if he has committed sins, he will be forgiven."

Does anyone here see the point I'm getting after?
 
Nick M

Nick M

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Guyver said:
What is the difference between the two gospels? Can you get specific and describe them both in detail?
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Guyver said:
MAD, and other dispensationalists are attempting to understand the scriptures as a whole. And in so doing, it's obvious to see that things change.
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You can't see that Jesus did not preach 1 Corinthians 15:3-4? When he told them he would die and return, he hid the meaning from them. So then, what did they preach? You tell us.
 
Guyver

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Nick M said:
You can't see that Jesus did not preach 1 Corinthians 15:3-4? When he told them he would die and return, he hid the meaning from them. So then, what did they preach? You tell us.
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I'll answer any question asked of me to the best of my ability Nick. But, I hope that you are as familiar with the words of Christ as I am.

Did Jesus preach 1 Corinthians 15:3-4? Well, the way you're asking it is a bit off.....IMO.

There's alot of things that Jesus said and didn't say. Everything that Jesus said and did - he did in fulfillment of the scriptures....IMO.

Did Jesus ever teach the gifts of the Spirit? Did he teach the "five-fold" works of the ministry?

He didn't go into detail at all about these things. One could hardly even see the "Christian Church" if only the direct words of Jesus are examined. He said he would "build his Church."

Matthew 16:18

Since he never said that there would be Apostles, prophets, evangelists, pastors and teachers....should we assume there shouldn't be any?

Since Jesus never said there would be gifts of the Spirit, should we assume there shouldn't be any?

Jesus taught the gospel. Yes. You should know this. The gospel is that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures and was buried, that he rose again on the third day in fulfillment of the scriptures.

This Jesus said he would do.

Matthew 12:39-40
Matthew 26:28

Matthew 20

"Now Jesus, going up to Jerusalem, took the twelve disciples aside on the road and said to them, “Behold, we are going up to Jerusalem, and the Son of Man will be betrayed to the chief priests and to the scribes; and they will condemn Him to death, and deliver Him to the Gentiles to mock and to scourge and to crucify. And the third day He will rise again.”
 
Nick M

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Guyver said:
I'll answer any question asked of me to the best of my ability Nick. But, I hope that you are as familiar with the words of Christ as I am.

Did Jesus preach 1 Corinthians 15:3-4? Well, the way you're asking it is a bit off.....IMO.
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It isn't a bit off. It is no. Paul said it was kept from everybody so the rulers of this world could not stop the plan. What they were they preaching?

Did Jesus ever teach the gifts of the Spirit?
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Yes. Those are now past.

Did he teach the "five-fold" works of the ministry?
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Unbiblical man made term. That doesn't make it wrong, I just don't know what you mean.

He didn't go into detail at all about these things.
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He went into great detail regarding tribulation, how can you say that? He spent time on the gifts.

One could hardly even see the "Christian Church" if only the direct words of Jesus are examined. He said he would "build his Church."
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The Christian church as it is today (is a mess) didn't exist then. Whom did he say he was sent to?

Since he never said that there would be Apostles, prophets,
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He did. The twelve would also rule over the twelve tribes. Do you really want to claim that was the dispensation of grace?

evangelists, pastors and teachers
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Most are con artists and frauds, whose works will be the end of them. Just as satan, who transforms into an angel of light (good works)

Since Jesus never said there would be gifts of the Spirit, should we assume there shouldn't be any?
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Why do you say this? I thought you said you know his words. You clearly don't. He did preach it, but now it is gone.

Jesus taught the gospel.
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There is more than one piece of good news in the "New Testament". And since he told Paul they mystery the hidden gospel, what were the 12 preaching? Let me know when you have an answer, I have to go.

Yes. You should know this. The gospel is that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures and was buried, that he rose again on the third day in fulfillment of the scriptures.

This Jesus said he would do.

Matthew 12:39-40
Matthew 26:28

Matthew 20

"Now Jesus, going up to Jerusalem, took the twelve disciples aside on the road and said to them, “Behold, we are going up to Jerusalem, and the Son of Man will be betrayed to the chief priests and to the scribes; and they will condemn Him to death, and deliver Him to the Gentiles to mock and to scourge and to crucify. And the third day He will rise again.”
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Luke 18

32 For He will be delivered to the Gentiles and will be mocked and insulted and spit upon. 33 They will scourge Him and kill Him. And the third day He will rise again.”

34 But they understood none of these things; this saying was hidden from them, and they did not know the things which were spoken.
 
Guyver

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You just said that the gifts of the Spirit are gone, and that Ephesians chapter 4 is apparently defunct as well.

Why do you believe this?
 
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godrulz

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Guyver said:
You just said that the gifts of the Spirit are gone, and that Ephesians chapter 4 is apparently defunct as well.

Why do you believe this?
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The gifts are not rescinded at the start of the Church Age, but at the end of it when Jesus comes (I Jn. 3:2). MAD is wrong in its cessationism vs continuationism.
 
Guyver

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godrulz said:
The gifts are not rescinded at the start of the Church Age, but at the end of it when Jesus comes (I Jn. 3:2). MAD is wrong in its cessationism vs continuationism.
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I think his statements are wrong....but I'd still like to know where he gets it from. I don't know if it has anything to do with MAD or not.

Hey.....question. Did you see any of those other posts I made this morning? I was hoping you would comment on a few of the issues.

Like the love/hate......work/not work....etc.

It is highlighting differences between words of Christ in the gospels, and teachings of the Epistles.
 
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godrulz

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Hyper-dispensational views hyper-compartmentalize things too much. I am Acts 2 disp and Pentecostal. Perhaps anti-charismatic is not germane to MAD, but just one of the things that disagree with (they throw out too many things: teachings of Jesus for the Church, non-Pauline books for the Church, water baptism/communion, spiritual gifts, etc.).
 
Nick M

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Guyver said:
You just said that the gifts of the Spirit are gone, and that Ephesians chapter 4 is apparently defunct as well.

Why do you believe this?
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We will talk about Paul saying they will cease as soon as you show me what the Lord Jesus Christ taught and the 12, knowing the DBR was for the good of the world, was hidden, as clearly shown in Luke 18.

Then we will talk about the completed picture and those gifts ceasing. Paul had in part, his words. And when he had all of it what he had in part would cease. But we can go into more detail in different thread.

Luke 18

32 For He will be delivered to the Gentiles and will be mocked and insulted and spit upon. 33 They will scourge Him and kill Him. And the third day He will rise again.”

34 But they understood none of these things; this saying was hidden from them, and they did not know the things which were spoken.

Tell me what they preached, since they did not preach 1 Corinthians 15:3-4. As clearly shown in Luke 18.
 
Guyver

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godrulz said:
Hyper-dispensational views hyper-compartmentalize things too much. I am Acts 2 disp and Pentecostal. Perhaps anti-charismatic is not germane to MAD, but just one of the things that disagree with (they throw out too many things: teachings of Jesus for the Church, non-Pauline books for the Church, water baptism/communion, spiritual gifts, etc.).
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That's a fine opinion, but it doesn't address a single point I made. Do you understand my point?
 
Guyver

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Nick M said:
We will talk about Paul saying they will cease as soon as you show me what the Lord Jesus Christ taught and the 12, knowing the DBR was for the good of the world, was hidden, as clearly shown in Luke 18.

Then we will talk about the completed picture and those gifts ceasing. Paul had in part, his words. And when he had all of it what he had in part would cease. But we can go into more detail in different thread.

Luke 18

32 For He will be delivered to the Gentiles and will be mocked and insulted and spit upon. 33 They will scourge Him and kill Him. And the third day He will rise again.”

34 But they understood none of these things; this saying was hidden from them, and they did not know the things which were spoken.

Tell me what they preached, since they did not preach 1 Corinthians 15:3-4. As clearly shown in Luke 18.
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You are the one making fantastic claims...it's up to you to demonstrate why you're doctrine is right...not me. Tell us why the gifts ceased, and the church hierarchy was abandoned.

I'll answer your question anyway. I don't think they were preaching anything at that point. The seventy had returned with joy eight chapters earlier. From that point on Jesus was doing the teaching as far as I can tell.
 
Nick M

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Guyver said:
You are the one making fantastic claims...it's up to you to demonstrate why you're doctrine is right...not me.
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I demonstrated word for word from the good news according to Luke. They did not preach 1 Corinthians 15:3-4. But they did preach.

5 These twelve Jesus sent out and commanded them, saying: “Do not go into the way of the Gentiles, and do not enter a city of the Samaritans. 6 But go rather to the lost sheep of the house of Israel. 7 And as you go, preach, saying, ‘The kingdom of heaven is at hand.’ 8 Heal the sick, cleanse the lepers, raise the dead, cast out demons.

The kingdom of heaven is at hand. Israel stood to be restored. They looked forward to it at the end of 70 weeks. Is this something you don't believe?

I will start a thread if there isn't one in the Dispensation forum on the gifts ending.
 
Guyver

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Nick M said:
I demonstrated word for word from the good news according to Luke. They did not preach 1 Corinthians 15:3-4. But they did preach.

5 These twelve Jesus sent out and commanded them, saying: “Do not go into the way of the Gentiles, and do not enter a city of the Samaritans. 6 But go rather to the lost sheep of the house of Israel. 7 And as you go, preach, saying, ‘The kingdom of heaven is at hand.’ 8 Heal the sick, cleanse the lepers, raise the dead, cast out demons.

The kingdom of heaven is at hand. Israel stood to be restored. They looked forward to it at the end of 70 weeks. Is this something you don't believe?
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So what Nick? Jesus hadn't died yet. Why would they preach something that hadn't happend? They preached the kingdom of heaven was at hand because it was - JESUS WAS THERE!

That's kind of a big deal.

I will start a thread if there isn't one in the Dispensation forum on the gifts ending.
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I'll go read it. I assume that you are starting it somewhere else because cessationism is not a MAD doctrine?

At least I hope not. We'll see.
 
Guyver

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PS. yes I believe the millenial reign of Christ is in the future - right after the Great Tribulation Period.
 
Guyver

Guyver

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I didn't realize that so much of that link is in audio files. Sorry about that. If you're like me you prefer to read, rather than listen to a talking head.
 
Guyver

Guyver

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In any event, going through this site and trying to find the MAD doctrines without listening to an entire Sunday Sermon on audio file....here's the first one.

According to MAD doctrine....water baptism is not necessary for salvation. Well, that's true....the first Gentiles saved by hearing the gospel at Cornelius' house by the preaching of Peter were baptized in water after they were saved.

http://graceambassadors.com/tradition/what-is-baptism
 
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