Theology Club: ARE THE 12 APOSTLES IN or OUT of the Body of Christ ??

Bright Raven

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So you have half of the Body waiting for their sins to be blotted out (Acts 3:19-21 KJV) while the other half has already (now) received the atonement (Romans 5:12 KJV)?

ridiculous

So you do not believe that the apostles are part of the Body of Christ?:jawdrop:
 

DAN P

Well-known member
So you do not believe that the apostles are part of the Body of Christ?:jawdrop:


Hi and IF the 12 apostles are part of the Body of Christ , the Present tense of Gal 3:28 EXCLUDES them !!

How can they be judging Israel on 12 thrones and yet be in the Body ?

There HOPE can not change of ruling on earth , can it ??

dan p
 

Bright Raven

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Hi and IF the 12 apostles are part of the Body of Christ , the Present tense of Gal 3:28 EXCLUDES them !!

How can they be judging Israel on 12 thrones and yet be in the Body ?

There HOPE can not change of ruling on earth , can it ??

dan p

You assume that at that time Israel is not part of the body?
 

Danoh

New member
Why did you just ignore what the Lord Jesus Himself said to the Jews who lived under the Law?:

"Very truly I tell you, whoever hears my word and believes him who sent me has eternal life and will not be judged but has crossed over from death to life" (Jn.5:24).​

If Mid-Acts is about anything, it is about the issue of consistency. Even our wiser opponents assert Mid-Acts is at least a consistent Dispensationalism.

Key to said consistency?

A question like 'what is the qualifier?'

It is a question like that - consistently asked that resulted in the Mid-Acts distinction to begin with.

In this, what is the qualifier of said "whoever hears my word and believes him who sent me"?

John 8:

31. Then said Jesus to those Jews which believed on him, If ye continue in my word, then are ye my disciples indeed;
32. And ye shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free.

The issue there - Psalm 111's:

10. The fear of the LORD is the beginning of wisdom: a good understanding have all they that do his commandments: his praise endureth for ever.

Such is the Word of His patience.

Revelation 3:

9. Behold, I will make them of the synagogue of Satan, which say they are Jews, and are not, but do lie; behold, I will make them to come and worship before thy feet, and to know that I have
loved thee.
10. Because thou hast kept the word of my patience, I also will keep thee from the hour of temptation, which shall come upon all the world, to try them that dwell upon the earth.
11. Behold, I come quickly: hold that fast which thou hast, that no man take thy crown.
 

Jerry Shugart

Well-known member
It is a question like that - consistently asked that resulted in the Mid-Acts distinction to begin with.

In this, what is the qualifier of said "whoever hears my word and believes him who sent me"?

The qualifier is the Lord Jesus' words themselves. You can either believe them or not:

"Very truly I tell you, whoever hears my word and believes him who sent me has eternal life and will not be judged but has crossed over from death to life" (Jn.5:24).​

In this verse the Greek word translated "believes" and the Greek word translated "has" are both in the "present" tense.

In The Blue Letter Bible we read the following meaning of the present tense:

"The present tense represents a simple statement of fact or reality viewed as occurring in actual time. In most cases this corresponds directly with the English present tense."

Therefore, John 5:24 is saying that those who were believing at the time the Lord Jesus spoke those words had already received eternal life. That is what is meant as something being "viewed as occuring in actual time."

So the Jews who believed the Lord Jesus received eternal life right then and there and here is what the Lord Jesus said about those who received eternal life:

"And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand" (Jn.10:28).​
 

Jerry Shugart

Well-known member
Theirs, a receiving at the end of their faith; a "grace that should come unto" them

1 Peter 1:9 Receiving the end of your faith, even the salvation of your souls.

1 Peter 1:10 Of which salvation the prophets have enquired and searched diligently, who prophesied of the grace that should come unto you:

The Greek word translated "receiving" is in the present tense and not the future tense. Therefore, the Jews who believed were saved the moment when they believed, as witnessed by the Lord Jesus' words spoken to the following woman:

" And he said unto her, Thy sins are forgiven. And they that sat at meat with him began to say within themselves, Who is this that forgiveth sins also? And he said to the woman, Thy faith hath saved thee; go in peace" (Lk.7:48-50).​
 

Danoh

New member
The qualifier is the Lord Jesus' words themselves. You can either believe them or not:

"Very truly I tell you, whoever hears my word and believes him who sent me has eternal life and will not be judged but has crossed over from death to life" (Jn.5:24).​

In this verse the Greek word translated "believes" and the Greek word translated "has" are both in the "present" tense.

In The Blue Letter Bible we read the following meaning of the present tense:

"The present tense represents a simple statement of fact or reality viewed as occurring in actual time. In most cases this corresponds directly with the English present tense."

Therefore, John 5:24 is saying that those who were believing at the time the Lord Jesus spoke those words had already received eternal life. That is what is meant as something being "viewed as occuring in actual time."

So the Jews who believed the Lord Jesus received eternal life right then and there and here is what the Lord Jesus said about those who received eternal life:

"And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand" (Jn.10:28).​

Greek or no Greek tense, I have no argument with your above assertion; said salvation is John 1 and the Blood of the New Covenant that is based on.
 

Danoh

New member
The Greek word translated "receiving" is in the present tense and not the future tense. Therefore, the Jews who believed were saved the moment when they believed, as witnessed by the Lord Jesus' words spoken to the following woman:

" And he said unto her, Thy sins are forgiven. And they that sat at meat with him began to say within themselves, Who is this that forgiveth sins also? And he said to the woman, Thy faith hath saved thee; go in peace" (Lk.7:48-50).​

Again, what "the Greek" brings out is already there - Peter is addressing those of John 1's faith.

At the same time, in their aspect of God's Two-Fold Purpose, those who fall were not really saved to begin with.

That is James, Peter's and John's point - for they and theirs had been guided unto all truth as to God's prophesied aspect of His Two-Fold Purpose.

John 1:
11. He came unto his own, and his own received him not.
12. But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name:
13. Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God.

1 John 2:

19. They went out from us, but they were not of us; for if they had been of us, they would no doubt have continued with us: but they went out, that they might be made manifest that they were not all of us.
20. But ye have an unction from the Holy One, and ye know all things.
21. I have not written unto you because ye know not the truth, but because ye know it, and that no lie is of the truth.
 

Jerry Shugart

Well-known member
Greek or no Greek tense, I have no argument with your above assertion; said salvation is John 1 and the Blood of the New Covenant that is based on.

The "said salvation" is the salvation of the soul.

In this, what is the qualifier of said "whoever hears my word and believes him who sent me"?

John 8:

31. Then said Jesus to those Jews which believed on him, If ye continue in my word, then are ye my disciples indeed;
32. And ye shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free.

You seem to think that the qualifier for the Jews in regard to salvation is continuing in the Lord's words but as I showed you earlier, those who believed were given eternal life at the moment when they believed. And once they were given eternal life the Lord promised that they would never perish.

But you obviously do not believe that those believing were given the promise that they will never perish because you assert that those who do not continue in His word will perish.
 

Jerry Shugart

Well-known member
Again, what "the Greek" brings out is already there - Peter is addressing those of John 1's faith.

Faith is faith and here Paul makes no distinction between the faith of the Jews and the faith of the Gentiles:

"Therefore it is of faith, that it might be by grace; to the end the promise might be sure to all the seed; not to that only which is of the law, but to that also which is of the faith of Abraham; who is the father of us all" (Ro.4:16).​
 

Danoh

New member
The "said salvation" is the salvation of the soul.



You seem to think that the qualifier for the Jews in regard to salvation is continuing in the Lord's words but as I showed you earlier, those who believed at the time when they believed were given eternal life. And once they were given eternal life the Lord promised that they would never perish.

But you obviously do not believe that those believing were given the promise that they will never perish because you assert that those who do not continue in His word will perish.

That's a fair conclusion - given what you have concluding I seem to think.

But no, brother, that is not what I think at all. Rather, I think the very opposite - that they too were eternally secure - in their Prophesied salvation.
 

Jerry Shugart

Well-known member
That's a fair conclusion - given what you have concluding I seem to think.

But no, brother, that is not what I think at all. Rather, I think the very opposite - that they too were eternally secure - in their Prophesied salvation.

The prophesised salvation is in regard to the salvation of national or corporate Israel, not individual Jews.

George Eldon Ladd writes that "in the Old Testament the eschatological salvation is always pictured in terms of the national, theocratic fate of the people of Israel" [emphasis added] (Ladd, The Last Things [Grand Rapids: Wm. B. Eerdmans Publishing Co., 1978], p.8).

In order to rightly divide the word of God you must learn to distinguish betweenthe promises in regard to the nation of Israel and those in regard to individual Jews.
 

heir

TOL Subscriber
The Greek word translated "receiving" is in the present tense and not the future tense. Therefore, the Jews who believed were saved the moment when they believed, as witnessed by the Lord Jesus' words spoken to the following woman:

" And he said unto her, Thy sins are forgiven. And they that sat at meat with him began to say within themselves, Who is this that forgiveth sins also? And he said to the woman, Thy faith hath saved thee; go in peace" (Lk.7:48-50).​

No doubt they shall be saved as in FUTURE!

Matthew 10:22 And ye shall be hated of all men for my name's sake: but he that endureth to the end shall be saved.

Acts 15:11 But we believe that through the grace of the Lord Jesus Christ we shall be saved, even as they.

1 Peter 1:9 Receiving the end of your faith, even the salvation of your souls.

1 Peter 1:10 Of which salvation the prophets have enquired and searched diligently, who prophesied of the grace that should come unto you:
 

Jerry Shugart

Well-known member
No doubt they shall be saved as in FUTURE!

The words of the Lord Jesus spoken to the woman speaks of a present salvation and not one belonging to the future:

"And he said unto her, Thy sins are forgiven. And they that sat at meat with him began to say within themselves, Who is this that forgiveth sins also? And he said to the woman, Thy faith hath saved thee; go in peace" (Lk.7:48-50).​

Matthew 10:22 And ye shall be hated of all men for my name's sake: but he that endureth to the end shall be saved.

By the context the "end" refers to the end of the great tribulation and those who endure to that time will be physically saved. This is an example of those being saved physically by the Lord Jesus at the end of the great tribulation:

"In that day shall the Lord defend the inhabitants of Jerusalem; and he that is feeble among them at that day shall be as David; and the house of David shall be as God, as the angel of the Lord before them. And it shall come to pass in that day, that I will seek to destroy all the nations that come against Jerusalem" (Zech.12:8-9).​

Acts 15:11 But we believe that through the grace of the Lord Jesus Christ we shall be saved, even as they.

In that verse the Greek word translated "we shall be saved" is in the "aorist" tense, and here is what is said in The Blue Letter Bible about that tense:

"The aorist tense is characterized by its emphasis on punctiliar action; that is, the concept of the verb is considered without regard for past, present, or future time."​

That is why you also get a translation like this one:

"We believe it is through the grace of our Lord Jesus that we are saved, just as they are" (Acts 15:11; NIV).​

1 Peter 1:9 Receiving the end of your faith, even the salvation of your souls.

Here the word "receiving" is in the present tense and not the future tense. The have already received the end or result of their faith which is the salvation of their souls.

1 Peter 1:10 Of which salvation the prophets have enquired and searched diligently, who prophesied of the grace that should come unto you:

Of course when the prophets foretold of the grace that was to come unto them that grace remained in the future. So therefore that grace is spoken of as being in the future.

Now that I have answered your verses please tell me why anyone should believe that the woman's salvation spoken of here remains in the future:

"And he said to the woman, Thy faith hath saved thee; go in peace" (Lk.7:50).​

The Greek word translated "hath saved" is in the "perfect" tense:

"The perfect tense in Greek corresponds to the perfect tense in English, and describes an action which is viewed as having been completed in the past, once and for all, not needing to be repeated" (The Blue Letter Bible).​
 

heir

TOL Subscriber
The words of the Lord Jesus spoken to the woman speaks of a present salvation and not one belonging to the future:

"And he said unto her, Thy sins are forgiven. And they that sat at meat with him began to say within themselves, Who is this that forgiveth sins also? And he said to the woman, Thy faith hath saved thee; go in peace" (Lk.7:48-50).​



By the context the "end" refers to the end of the great tribulation and those who endure to that time will be physically saved. This is an example of those being saved physically by the Lord Jesus at the end of the great tribulation:

"In that day shall the Lord defend the inhabitants of Jerusalem; and he that is feeble among them at that day shall be as David; and the house of David shall be as God, as the angel of the Lord before them. And it shall come to pass in that day, that I will seek to destroy all the nations that come against Jerusalem" (Zech.12:8-9).​



In that verse the Greek word translated "we shall be saved" is in the "aorist" tense, and here is what is said in The Blue Letter Bible about that tense:

"The aorist tense is characterized by its emphasis on punctiliar action; that is, the concept of the verb is considered without regard for past, present, or future time."​

That is why you also get a translation like this one:

"We believe it is through the grace of our Lord Jesus that we are saved, just as they are" (Acts 15:11; NIV).​



Here the word "receiving" is in the present tense and not the future tense. The have already received the end or result of their faith which is the salvation of their souls.



Of course when the prophets foretold of the grace that was to come unto them that grace remained in the future. So therefore that grace is spoken of as being in the future.

Now that I have answered your verses please tell me why anyone should believe that the woman's salvation spoken of here remains in the future:

"And he said to the woman, Thy faith hath saved thee; go in peace" (Lk.7:50).​

The Greek word translated "hath saved" is in the "perfect" tense:

"The perfect tense in Greek corresponds to the perfect tense in English, and describes an action which is viewed as having been completed in the past, once and for all, not needing to be repeated" (The Blue Letter Bible).​
:yawn: Greek is your final authority. When it's the scriptures we can have a discussion. Everyone knows when Israels sins will be blotted out and that hasn't happened yet! Acts 3:19-21 KJV. It's also how we KNOW that those in M, M, L, J and Acts 2 and 3 are NOT in the BoC!
 

Ardima

New member
Hi to all , and during the Pastor Bill Root ministry , they were talking about , " were the 12 IN or OUT of the Body of Christ ??

I knew that it was a raging question , at that time !!

Can you give verses for EITHER POSITION ?

dan p

The twelve are dead, and are therefore neither in or out of anything. It doesn't matter if they were or not because whatever you believe will not magically change what was, is, or is to come. There was only ever one Gospel that matters, the Gospel of Jesus Christ. In the end all that matters is that God will be made all in all, and that will only happen once everything (and everyone) have been placed in Christ. Jesus has already done all the work to accomplish this, and nothing you believe about God, salvation, or the body of Christ will ever change the fact that in the end God will be all in all.

Christ is the Gospel; Christ is our righteousness; Christ is our hope!!! No Jesus; no righteousness. No Jesus; no hope! This is the only thing that matters!!
 

heir

TOL Subscriber
The twelve are dead, and are therefore neither in or out of anything. It doesn't matter if they were or not because whatever you believe will not magically change what was, is, or is to come.
They are in Christ redemptively, but not in the Body of Christ. We know this, because Paul is the first (1 Timothy 1:16 KJK) and it DOES matter if they are in or out as religious men like to confuse people by saying they are.
There was only ever one Gospel that matters, the Gospel of Jesus Christ.
Clearly, you don't know what you are talking about. There are two gospels in this one verse alone Galatians 2:7 KJV

Now what?
 

Ardima

New member
They are in Christ redemptively, but not in the Body of Christ. We know this, because Paul is the first (1 Timothy 1:16 KJK) and it DOES matter if they are in or out as religious men like to confuse people by saying they are.Clearly, you don't know what you are talking about.

It does not matter because it will not change the work that Jesus did on the cross that God may be all in all.

There are two gospels in this one verse alone Galatians 2:7 KJV

Now what?
Um... you seem to have forgotten to emphasize the next two words after "only ever one gospel".... You are being deceitful. It makes a big difference. There are many gospels, but only one that matters, the Gospel of Jesus Christ!!! Being in Christ is all that matters, and Christ has already accomplished this for all things whether in heaven or in earth. All to be testified in due time. We should stop worrying about trivial things that will change nothing and focus on loving the Eternal God with all of our heart, soul, strength and mind through the grace found only in Jesus Christ.
 

Jerry Shugart

Well-known member
Greek is your final authority.

Are you not aware that the NT was written in Greek?

You did not answer my question as to why anyone should think that this woman's salvation remains in the future despite the Lord Jesus' words to her:

"And he said to the woman, Thy faith hath saved thee; go in peace" (Lk.7:50).​

When it's the scriptures we can have a discussion.

Here is your chance to demonstrate that you can actually have an intelligent discussion. Why should anyone should think that this woman's salvation remains in the future despite the Lord Jesus' words to her?

Besides that, the Lord Jesus said the following to the Jews who lived under the law:

"It is the spirit that quickeneth; the flesh profiteth nothing: the words that I speak unto you, they are spirit, and they are life" (Jn.6:63).​

Notice that the Lord Jesus says that His words ARE (present tense) life. Those who believed Him received life the moment when they believed Him. Please tell us why anyone should think that a person who believed Him at the time He spoke is not saved until sometime in the future.
 
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