Theology Club: ARE THE 12 APOSTLES IN or OUT of the Body of Christ ??

[heir]

So they were not saved by faith alone apart from works?

This is not new to you, Jerry. Those people showed their faith by their works (James 2:18 KJV, James 2:20 KJV). Their salvation is dependent upon them doing something by faith:

Repent, and believe the gospel (Mark 1:4 KJV) by baptism of repentance for the remission of sins (Mark 1:4 KJV, Mark 16:16 KJV, Acts 2:38 KJV), keep the commandments (John 14:15 KJV, Matthew 23:2-3 KJV, John 15:5-10 KJV), endure to the end to be saved (Matthew 10:22 KJV), go through the trial of their faith (1 Peter 1:7 KJV), receiving the end of their faith, even the salvation of their souls (1 Peter 1:9 KJV). That salvation is of the grace that "should" come unto them (Acts 15:11 KJV, 1 Peter 1:10 KJV). They look forward that their sins may be blotted out, when the times of refreshing shall come from the presence of the Lord (which is at what many refer to as the second coming of the Lord (Acts 3:19-21 KJV).

That is not the righteousness of God without the law by the faith of Jesus Christ that is unto all and upon all them that believe (Romans 3:21-22 KJV). To be saved today is to trust the Lord believing the gospel of Christ (1 Corinthians 15:1-4 KJV) which is where the righteousness of God is revealed (Romans 1:16-17 KJV). Those who have trusted the Lord today having believed the gospel of Christ "are saved" presently (1 Corinthians 1:18 KJV, 1 Corinthians 15:2 KJV, Ephesians 2:5 KJV, Ephesians 2:8 KJV). We get saved not by works of righteousness which we have done (Romans 4:4-5 KJV, Titus 3:4-7 KJV). We are baptized BY one Spirit into one Body (not by water for the remission of sins 1 Corinthians 12:13 KJV). We have now received the atonement (Romans 5:11 KJV).

Things that are different are not the same.

 

[Nick M]

Things that are different are not the same.

Have you checked other versions or commentary? Most credible NT scholars do not agree with you. lain:

 

[Jerry Shugart]

This is not new to you, Jerry.

Why did you just ignore what the Lord Jesus Himself said to the Jews who lived under the Law?:

"Very truly I tell you, whoever hears my word and believes him who sent me has eternal life and will not be judged but has crossed over from death to life" (Jn.5:24).​

 

[heir]

Why did you just ignore what the Lord Jesus Himself said to the Jews who lived under the Law?:

"Very truly I tell you, whoever hears my word and believes him who sent me has eternal life and will not be judged but has crossed over from death to life" (Jn.5:24).​

Why did you ignore what is clearly required for them in Matthew, Mark, Luke, John and Acts to be saved?

 

[Jerry Shugart]

Why did you ignore what is clearly required for them in Matthew, Mark, Luke, John and Acts to be saved?

I will answer one of your verses first then you must give me your interpretation of what the Lord Jesus said at John 5:24 to the Jews who lived under the Law.

I will now answer your verses which you think proves that one had to be baptized with water before he could be saved. We do know that before a person could be baptized with water that person must first believe, as witnessed by the following exchange between Philip and the eunuch:

"And as they went on their way, they came unto a certain water: and the eunuch said, See, here is water; what doth hinder me to be baptized? And Philip said, If thou believest with all thine heart, thou mayest. And he answered and said, I believe that Jesus Christ is the Son of God" (Acts 8:36-37).​

Before the eunuch was baptized with water he was already "born of God" because he believed that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God:

"Whosoever believeth that Jesus is the Christ is born of God..For whatsoever is born of God overcometh the world: and this is the victory that overcometh the world, even our faith. Who is he that overcometh the world, but he that believeth that Jesus is the Son of God?" (1 Jn.5:1,4-5).​

There can be no doubt that the eunuch received eternal life and was "born of God" before he was baptized with water so we can know that being baptized with water does not contribute in any way to anyone being saved.

Now let us hear your interpretation of the meaning of the Lord Jesus' words here, which prove that the moment when the Jews under the Law believed they were saved:

"Very truly I tell you, whoever hears my word and believes him who sent me has eternal life and will not be judged but has crossed over from death to life" (Jn.5:24).​

 

[DAN P]

Why did you just ignore what the Lord Jesus Himself said to the Jews who lived under the Law?:

"Very truly I tell you, whoever hears my word and believes him who sent me has eternal life and will not be judged but has crossed over from death to life" (Jn.5:24).​

Hi , and this is how I would answer John 5:24 !

#1 , First , the Context is all Jewish !

#2 , Who will say that no one was saved during Acts 2 as God was saving and adding to that EKKLESIA/ASSEMBLY in Acts 2:41 and 47 !

#3 , Those believers , had everlasting life and passed from Death unto life !

#4 , And will be in the Resurrection spoken about in Matt 8:11 and be Kings and Priests , Rev 1:6 !!

dan p

 

[Nick M]

I will answer one of your verses first then you must give me your interpretation of what the Lord Jesus said at John 5:24 to the Jews who lived under the Law.

That is your question? Seriously? Those that keep the law and reject the messiah will perish. And the circumcision that accept the messiah, believe and were baptized but did not keep the law perish, as shown in Acts 5.

Unlike the gentiles who do not keep the law and are saved to make Israel jealous.

Why else would it make them jealous? Referring to Romans 11:11. What Paul says makes no sense whatsoever if you claim the red letters do not mean what they say.

 

[Jerry Shugart]

That is your question? Seriously? Those that keep the law and reject the messiah will perish. And the circumcision that accept the messiah, believe and were baptized but did not keep the law perish, as shown in Acts 5.

This verse says nothing about doing anything other than believing in order to have eternal llife:

"Very truly I tell you, whoever hears my word and believes him who sent me has eternal life and will not be judged but has crossed over from death to life" (Jn.5:24).​

And once a person has received eternal life he shall never perish:

" And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand" (Jn.10:28).​

Those under the law were saved exactly like we are and they too enjoy eternal security!

 

[DAN P]

I don't see how the 12 could be in the Body of Christ when they have a different gospel, requirements for salvation, timing of atonement for sins and inheritance. They're out.

Hi , and even some the most revered writers on Dispensatinalism , believe that the 12 are in the Body of Christ !

Some believe that SAUL was saved under the preaching of the Kingdom Gospel!

Many believe that Paul was water Baptized !

Many believe that Paul ALSO Baptized !

Or , that the Body of Christ is the Bride of Christ !

Yet , many believe that Paul was Greatest sinner , yet in Phil 33:6 Paul is called BLAMELESS concerning the Law !

Dispensationalist are just as divided as anyone else !

dan p

 

[Jerry Shugart]

Hi , and even some the most revered writers on Dispensatinalism , believe that the 12 are in the Body of Christ !

For good reason. The idea that the 12 are not in the Body is just one of the errors promoted by those within the Neo-MAD movement. Here we can see that both Jews and Gentiles are baptized into the Body of Christ:

"For as the body is one, and hath many members, and all the members of that one body, being many, are one body: so also is Christ. For by one Spirit are we all baptized into one body, whether we be Jews or Gentiles, whether we be bond or free; and have been all made to drink into one Spirit" (1 Cor.12:13).​

In this passage Paul uses the pronoun "we" twice and from his introduction in that same epistle we can know that that pronoun is not only referring to those in the church at Corinth but also "all that in every place call upon the name of Jesus Christ our Lord":

"Unto the church of God which is at Corinth, to them that are sanctified in Christ Jesus, called to be saints, with all that in every place call upon the name of Jesus Christ our Lord, both their's and our's" (1 Cor.1:2).​

All of the Jewish believers living in the first century did indeed call on the name of Jesus Christ so therefore all of them belonged to the Body of Christ.

 

[Gurucam]

ARE THE 12 APOSTLES IN or OUT of the Body of Christ ??

dan p

The disciples were not in the body of Christ. They never made it. They were called but not chosen.

The body of Christ is a group of people who commune with and are led by, the Spirit of Jesus/Spirit of Truth after Jesus rose to heaven. From among those people only Paul achieved that feat. He became a New person.

Since Paul, only a few others achieved that feat, they are the chosen few. Remember 'many are called to Christianity but only a few are chosen, i.e. only a few make it. Only these chosen few are Christians. All others are 'make believe' Christians . . . so confirmed Jesus.

The disciples including Peter knew Jesus only in the physical i.e. only in His physical body. They wanted and continue to want, physical signs for spiritual things. They remained Old people. They remained 'the dead'. They and their followers continue to want to see Jesus in the physical.

This is so although they were told by Jesus to not look to thing that are seen. They ignored this, they continue to look to 'seen' (i.e. physical) things, like Jesus in a physical body. Jesus in His 'seen or physical body is temporal. They did not and do not (look to or) seek Jesus in His (not seen) Spirit. Jesus in His 'not seen' or Spirit body is eternal.

The rising of Jesus to heaven was a spiritual event. Jesus rose to heaven only in His Spirit body. The disciples wanted a physical sign of this event. So Jesus recreated his physical body and rose in that body to the clouds beyond their sight, simply to give them a physical sign of what was solely a spirit event. Thereafter Jesus rose in only His Spirit body to be like an angel in heaven. This was the sad state of the disciples. They were spiritually dead. They could not and did not in any way know of and/or recognize the 'not seen' world and 'not seen' events..

Do you know what Jesus said about people who want physical signs for spiritual events and spiritual things? . . . check Matthews.

. . . . let no false prophet who came in Jesus name mislead you.

. . . you do realize that all of the above is clearly and literally confirmed in the KJV N.T.

Dan P, click here:

http://www.theologyonline.com/forums/showthread.php?t=104733

 

[Gurucam]

Dear Dan P,

1 Corinthians: 15 verse: 44 (KJV N.T.) It is sown a natural body; it is [size=+1]raised[/size] a spiritual body. There is a natural body, and there is a spiritual body.

1 Corinthians: 15 verse: 47 (KJV N.T.) The first man is of the earth, earthy; [size=+1]the second man is the Lord from heaven[/size].

2 Corinthians: 4 verse: 16 (KJV N.T) For which cause we faint not; but though [size=+1]our outward man perish[/size], yet the inward man is renewed day by day.

Do you want to recognize the above revelations or do you simply ignore those revelations and others which you do not like?

 

[beloved57]

The Twelve Apostles are in the Body of Christ 1 Cor 12 ! 1 Cor 12:18-28

18 But now hath God set the members every one of them in the body, as it hath pleased him.

19 And if they were all one member, where were the body?

20 But now are they many members, yet but one body.

21 And the eye cannot say unto the hand, I have no need of thee: nor again the head to the feet, I have no need of you.

22 Nay, much more those members of the body, which seem to be more feeble, are necessary:

23 And those members of the body, which we think to be less honourable, upon these we bestow more abundant honour; and our uncomely parts have more abundant comeliness.

24 For our comely parts have no need: but God hath tempered the body together, having given more abundant honour to that part which lacked.

25 That there should be no schism in the body; but that the members should have the same care one for another.

26 And whether one member suffer, all the members suffer with it; or one member be honoured, all the members rejoice with it.

27 Now ye are the body of Christ, and members in particular.

28 And God hath set some in the church, first apostles, secondarily prophets, thirdly teachers, after that miracles, then gifts of healings, helps, governments, diversities of tongues.

The Apostles were set members in the Body of Christ !

 

[Gurucam]

The Twelve Apostles are in the Body of Christ 1 Cor 12 ! 1 Cor 12:18-28

The Twelve Apostles are in the Body of Christ 1 Cor 12 ! 1 Cor 12:18-28

Quote:
18 But now hath God set the members every one of them in the body, as it hath pleased him.

19 And if they were all one member, where were the body?

20 But now are they many members, yet but one body.

21 And the eye cannot say unto the hand, I have no need of thee: nor again the head to the feet, I have no need of you.

22 Nay, much more those members of the body, which seem to be more feeble, are necessary:

23 And those members of the body, which we think to be less honourable, upon these we bestow more abundant honour; and our uncomely parts have more abundant comeliness.

24 For our comely parts have no need: but God hath tempered the body together, having given more abundant honour to that part which lacked.

25 That there should be no schism in the body; but that the members should have the same care one for another.

26 And whether one member suffer, all the members suffer with it; or one member be honoured, all the members rejoice with it.

27 Now ye are the body of Christ, and members in particular.

28 And God hath set some in the church, first apostles, secondarily prophets, thirdly teachers, after that miracles, then gifts of healings, helps, governments, diversities of tongues.

The Apostles were set members in the Body of Christ !

in those verses Paul simply speak about the body. In none of those verses did Paul confirm that the disciples were in that body.

The body of Christ is comprised of people who look to things that are 'not seen' That includes Jesus in only His Spirit body.

The disciples never looked to thing that are 'not seen'. Up to the very end they demanded to see the flesh wounds in the physical body which Jesus had after His crucifixion. They wanted those physical signs before they even considered that Jesus did not die on the cross. They did not take Jesus words. Jesus words were not good enough for them. They had no belief in or faith in, things 'not seen'. For them 'what you see is what you get. This is ways of 'the dead', i.e. the spiritually dead.

The disciples were spiritually dead and very bold about that fact.

Only Paul had the capacity to and did, discern Jesus in His Spirit. Only Paul had the capacity to and did discern things that are 'not seen'.

Note 1 Corinthians: 15 verse: 47 (KJV N.T.) - The first man is of the earth, earthy; the second man is the Lord from heaven.
1 Corinthians: 15 verse: 44 (KJV N.T.) - It is sown a natural body; it is [size=+1]raised[/size] a spiritual body. There is a natural body, and there is a spiritual body.

The first man is one's natural man or physical body. The second man is one's inward man or spirit body. Currently Jesus is in His second man, in heaven. It is the second man that is Lord. Jesus is Lord in His Spirit. It is confirmed very clearly in 2 Corinthians:3 verse: 17 that now the Lord is that Spirit.

Only the unfortunate and misguided still believe that Jesus is Lord in a physical body.

One has to know Jesus in His second man (in His Spirit body) in order to be in the body of Christ. Only Paul achieved that feat, none of the disciples achieved that feat.

Wake up and learn to recognize truth.

It is confirmed that many are called to Christianity but few chose. Know why? Because the very great majority (i.e all but a few) of those called to Christianity err because they are misguided and misinformed as you are.

 

[beloved57]

in those verses Paul simply speak about the body. In none of those verses did Paul confirm that the disciples were in that body.

Wake up and learn to recognize truth.

You cant believe the Truth !

 

[Gurucam]

You cant believe the Truth !

You have to use a lot of imagination and assumptions to make-up your claim.

That is so different from facts as confirmed by:

1 Corinthians: 15 verse: 47 (KJV N.T.) - The first man is of the earth, earthy; the second man is the Lord from heaven.
1 Corinthians: 15 verse: 44 (KJV N.T.) - It is sown a natural body; it is raised a spiritual body. There is a natural body, and there is a spiritual body.


The first man is one's natural man or physical body. This a 'seen' and temporal body. The second man is one's inward man or spirit body. This a 'not seen' and eternal body.

Jesus instructed: look not at things that are 'seen' (i.e. physical). For such things are temporal.Instead look at things that are 'not seen' (i.e. not physical, like Jesus in His Spirit body). For such things are eternal. The disciples did not listen.

Currently Jesus is in His second man, in heaven. (simply because the second body is the Lord in heaven and it is raised a spiritual body) Jesus in His second man is Lord in heaven. Jesus' second man is His Spirit. It is the second man that is Lord. It is also Jesus who is Lord. Therefore Jesus is Lord in His Spirit in heaven.

In addition to this, it is confirmed very clearly in 2 Corinthians:3 verse: 17 (KJV N.T.) that now the Lord is that Spirit. This deceleration was made some 2000 years ago. We know also that Jesus is Lord. Therefore the Lord is that Spirit of Jesus/Spirit of Truth for the past 2000 odd years. Those who want to be Christian and in the body of Christ must know Jesus in His Spirit as Paul did.

Only the unfortunate and misguided believed and still believe that Jesus is Lord in a physical body.

The disciples, because they physically saw Jesus rise to a cloud in His physical body, assumed, believed, promoted and taught that Jesus is in His physical body in heaven. Fact is Jesus rose to a cloud in His physical body. However He was raised (to heaven) in His spiritual body (refer to the verses above).

The disciples therefore err. They misled themselves and others. Therefore they and their followers could not be chosen and were not chosen. They and their followers did not make it. They were and are, not Christians. They cannot be and were not in the body of Christ.

Only a few people from among the billion or so who were called to Christianity knew that Jesus is in heaven only in His Spirit body. Only these few had and have a chance of being chosen and in the body of Christ.

This is the absolutely serious consequence of misinformation.

 

[DAN P]

The Twelve Apostles are in the Body of Christ 1 Cor 12 ! 1 Cor 12:18-28



The Apostles were set members in the Body of Christ !

Hi and Gal 3:28 TRUMPS all you have written and " in Christ " there are no Jews nor Greeks nor Bond or Slave neither can there be Male nor Female , as all in the Body , LOSE there Indentity " in Christ as all the 4 verbs in Gal 3:28 are in the Greek Present Tense , so this EXCLUDES all Jews and Greeks !!

dan p

 

[Right Divider]

I don't know if we are "under" a covenant but we are "under" the law of Christ (1 Cor. 9:21), who is the mediator of a new covenant (Heb. 9:15). We are no longer strangers to the covenants (Eph. 2:12) which means we are no longer outsiders in relation to the covenants. Sounds like we are part of the new covenant to me.

That's because you don't actually read what it says, you just assume that what so many say is true.

Eph 2:11-13 Wherefore remember, that ye being in time past Gentiles in the flesh, who are called Uncircumcision by that which is called the Circumcision in the flesh made by hands; (12) That at that time ye were without Christ, being aliens from the commonwealth of Israel, and strangers from the covenants of promise, having no hope, and without God in the world: (13) But now in Christ Jesus ye who sometimes were far off are made nigh by the blood of Christ.
​

We are made nigh by the blood, not by a covenant. The 'nigh' is to CHRIST, not Israel and their covenant.

 

[beloved57]

Hi and Gal 3:28 TRUMPS all you have written and " in Christ " there are no Jews nor Greeks nor Bond or Slave neither can there be Male nor Female , as all in the Body , LOSE there Indentity " in Christ as all the 4 verbs in Gal 3:28 are in the Greek Present Tense , so this EXCLUDES all Jews and Greeks !!

dan p

You don't make any sense, invalid comments !

 

[DAN P]

You don't make any sense, invalid comments !

Hi , and only those who are PAULINE will see what Gal 3:28 IS SAYING to the Body of Christ <

Yet I have another verse that also TRUMPS the " 12 IN postion " and that is 1 Cor 15:8 as SAUL is the ONLY ONE that is ABORTED !

The 12 are born " IN DUE TIME " and that due time is AFTER the Grear Tribulation , pure and simple !!

dan p