For Sincere Inquisitors ONLY: MAD Explained

Jerry Shugart

Well-known member
Sincere Inquisitors,

What Peter said is crystal clear. It takes a lot smoke & mirrors to mess this up.
here Peter is referring to a "future" salvation, the same exact one that Paul makes reference here:

" For if, when we were enemies, we were reconciled to God by the death of his Son, much more, being reconciled, we shall be saved by his life" (Ro.5:10).

It is at the rapture that we are saved by His life when we will meet Him in the air and put on glorious, incorruptible bodies that are resereved in heaven:
1 Peter 1
4: To an inheritance incorruptible, and undefiled, and that fadeth not away, reserved in heaven for you,
5: Who are kept by the power of God through faith unto salvation ready to be revealed in the last time.
This is the same "inheritance" of which Paul speaks about when he was converted on the Damascus road. The Lord Jesus told him the following in regard to the Gentiles:

"To open their eyes (the eyes of the Gentiles), and to turn them from darkness to light, and from the power of Satan unto God, that they may receive forgiveness of sins, and inheritance among them which are sanctified by faith that is in me" (Acts 26:18).

The only people who had been sanctified before Paul were Jewish believers. Therefore the Gentiles who believed were to share the same inheritance that was given to the Jewish believers. Paul said the same thing to the Ephesian elders:

"And now, brethren, I commend you to God, and to the word of his grace, which is able to build you up, and to give you an inheritance among all them which are sanctified" (Acts 20:32).

The inheritance which the Gentile believers receive is said to be "among all them which are sanctified." That would surely be in regard to the Jewish believers.

In His grace,
Jerry
 

chickenman

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All I have done as a Mid Acts believer is to do exactly what Randy said to do at another place:

He asks if there is any disgreements and I have shown my disagreements. So nothing is bizarre about what I have done.

Jerry, I have no problem with you posting here and presenting your disagreements. I've been clear on that.

You tend to want to push it a little at times. But I have no problem with others seeing the differences in the MidActs camp, giving them more information to evaluate.

My comment didn't only have you in mind. So lighten up, present your differences, and whatever happens...happens. :up:
 

Jerry Shugart

Well-known member
My comment didn't only have you in mind.
Randy, so your following comments didn't only have me in mind?:
I've said this before, and it's something that a few seem to have a real struggle with for whatever bizarre reason, as if they can't bear a thread without some form of debate. This thread is just for informative purposes.
I just wanted to clear up what you said by showing that I am not having any struggle so therefore my posts are not the result of anything that could be considered "bizarre."

I am "Endeavouring to keep the unity of the Spirit in the bond of peace" (Eph.4:3).

Jerry
 

SaulToPaul 2

Well-known member
For the sincere inquisitors, I thought I'd bring this up again, since it is a common question that arises when we say that the New Covenant is for Israel, but the Body of Christ is not under the New Covenant:


2 Cor 3
5: Not that we are sufficient of ourselves to think any thing as of ourselves; but our sufficiency is of God;
6: Who also hath made us able ministers of the new testament; not of the letter, but of the spirit: for the letter killeth, but the spirit giveth life.


Paul ministered the spirit of the new testament, not the letter.


2 Cor 3
7: But if the ministration of death, written and engraven in stones, was glorious, so that the children of Israel could not stedfastly behold the face of Moses for the glory of his countenance; which glory was to be done away:
8: How shall not the ministration of the spirit be rather glorious?

What is the spirit of the new testament?

2 Cor 3
9: For if the ministration of condemnation be glory, much more doth the ministration of righteousness exceed in glory.


The spirit of the new testament is the righteousness of God. How did Paul minister the spirit of the new testament, the righteousness of God?

Romans 3
21: But now the righteousness of God without the law is manifested, being witnessed by the law and the prophets;
22: Even the righteousness of God which is by faith of Jesus Christ unto all and upon all them that believe: for there is no difference:

So, the Body of Christ is imputed the righteousness of God (spirit of the new testament), whereas Israel will BE the righteousness of God when the New Covenant is in effect.

Ezekiel 36
24: For I will take you from among the heathen, and gather you out of all countries, and will bring you into your own land.
25: Then will I sprinkle clean water upon you, and ye shall be clean: from all your filthiness, and from all your idols, will I cleanse you.
26: A new heart also will I give you, and a new spirit will I put within you: and I will take away the stony heart out of your flesh, and I will give you an heart of flesh.
27: And I will put my spirit within you, and cause you to walk in my statutes, and ye shall keep my judgments, and do them.
28: And ye shall dwell in the land that I gave to your fathers; and ye shall be my people, and I will be your God.


Ezekiel 37
22: And I will make them one nation in the land upon the mountains of Israel; and one king shall be king to them all: and they shall be no more two nations, neither shall they be divided into two kingdoms any more at all:
23: Neither shall they defile themselves any more with their idols, nor with their detestable things, nor with any of their transgressions: but I will save them out of all their dwellingplaces, wherein they have sinned, and will cleanse them: so shall they be my people, and I will be their God.
24: And David my servant shall be king over them; and they all shall have one shepherd: they shall also walk in my judgments, and observe my statutes, and do them.
25: And they shall dwell in the land that I have given unto Jacob my servant, wherein your fathers have dwelt; and they shall dwell therein, even they, and their children, and their children's children for ever: and my servant David shall be their prince for ever.


The Corinthian letter is written to Jews and Greeks, those who knew the old testament scriptures concerning the new covenant, and Paul is showing them that he is ministering the spirit of it, the righteousness of God.
 

Jerry Shugart

Well-known member
2 Cor 3
5: Not that we are sufficient of ourselves to think any thing as of ourselves; but our sufficiency is of God;
6: Who also hath made us able ministers of the new testament; not of the letter, but of the spirit: for the letter killeth, but the spirit giveth life.


Paul ministered the spirit of the new testament, not the letter.


2 Cor 3
7: But if the ministration of death, written and engraven in stones, was glorious, so that the children of Israel could not stedfastly behold the face of Moses for the glory of his countenance; which glory was to be done away:
8: How shall not the ministration of the spirit be rather glorious?

What is the spirit of the new testament?

2 Cor 3
9: For if the ministration of condemnation be glory, much more doth the ministration of righteousness exceed in glory.


The spirit of the new testament is the righteousness of God. How did Paul minister the spirit of the new testament, the righteousness of God?
Again, I must repectfully disagree.

"Who also hath made us able ministers of the new testament; not of the letter, but of the spirit: for the letter killeth, but the spirit giveth life" (2 Cor.3:6).

From this we can understand that being ministers of a “new testament” is in regard to the ministration of the Spirit, and that Spirit giveth life. This can refer to only one thing, and that is testifying the gospel of grace.It is the gospel which comes in the power of the Holy Spirit (1 Thess.1:5; 1 Pet.1:12) that brings life and by the immediate context of 2 Corinthians 3:6 we can understand that the ministry to which Paul makes reference is in regard to preaching the gospel:

"Therefore seeing we have this ministry, as we have received mercy, we faint not; But have renounced the hidden things of dishonesty, not walking in craftiness, nor handling the word of God deceitfully; but by manifestation of the truth commending ourselves to every man's conscience in the sight of God. But if our gospel be hid, it is hid to them that are lost: In whom the god of this world hath blinded the minds of them which believe not, lest the light of the glorious gospel of Christ, who is the image of God, should shine unto them. For we preach not ourselves, but Christ Jesus the Lord" (2 Cor.4:1-4).

Paul's words "this ministry" are obviously pointing back to the "ministry" of 2 Cor.3:6 and it is evident that his words "this ministry" are in regard to the "manifestation of the truth," or preaching "Christ Jesus the Lord"-- "the glorious gospel of Christ."

In His grace,
Jerry
 

SaulToPaul 2

Well-known member
From this we can understand that being ministers of a “new testament” is in regard to the ministration of the Spirit, and that Spirit giveth life. This can refer to only one thing, and that is testifying the gospel of grace.It is the gospel which comes in the power of the Holy Spirit (1 Thess.1:5; 1 Pet.1:12) that brings life and by the immediate context of 2 Corinthians 3:6 we can understand that the ministry to which Paul makes reference is in regard to preaching the gospel:

I'd like to make one further point.

2 Cor 3
6: Who also hath made us able ministers of the new testament; not of the letter, but of the spirit: for the letter killeth, but the spirit giveth life.
7: But if the ministration of death, written and engraven in stones, was glorious, so that the children of Israel could not stedfastly behold the face of Moses for the glory of his countenance; which glory was to be done away:
8: How shall not the ministration of the spirit be rather glorious?
9: For if the ministration of condemnation be glory, much more doth the ministration of righteousness exceed in glory.


Paul defines the ministration of the spirit right here in the passage.
It is the ministration of righteousness. Righteousness giveth life.


Deuteronomy 8
1: All the commandments which I command thee this day shall ye observe to do, that ye may live, and multiply, and go in and possess the land which the LORD sware unto your fathers.

But now, we have the righteousness of God without the law, that we may live, through the gospel.

Thanks everyone.
 

Jerry Shugart

Well-known member
We just need to drop the labels, drop the reliance on the "MAD" fathers as authoritative, and just believe what is written, let the chips fall where they fall.
STP,

I am having trouble attempting to reconcile your statement about just believing what is written and what you actually teach. Earlier you said
According to covenant promises, Peter's sins were paid for on the cross, but they would not be blotted out until the day of atonement at the 2nd coming. That's when he would be saved.
If the Jewish believers sins will not be blotted out or forgiven until sometime in the future then why does John tell them that their sins are already forgiven?:

"I write unto you, little children, because your sins are forgiven you for his name's sake" (1 Pet.2:12).

if the Jewish believers could not be saved until later then how do you explain the following words of the Lord Jesus spoken to one of those Jews?:

"And he said unto her, Thy sins are forgiven. And they that sat at meat with him began to say within themselves, Who is this that forgiveth sins also? And he said to the woman, Thy faith hath saved thee; go in peace" (Lk.7:48-50).

It seems to me that these verses directly contradict your teaching. Perhaps you can explain why they do not.

In His grace,
Jerry
 
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chickenman

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I say, in Eph. 4:1-6, Paul beseeches members of the Body of Christ to walk worthy of their (third-heavenly) calling by meekly, patiently, and lovingly endeavoring to keep the unity of the Spirit in the bond of peace. The apostle then lists precisely seven dispensationally-distinctive “ones” which IMO comprise or “encapsulate” this unity which we are responsible to keep today: i.e., one body, one Spirit, one hope, one Lord, one faith, one baptism, one God.

I believe we are to strive mightily to understand/internalize all 66 books of the Protestant Bible (which are for our learning, thus necessary for our overall spiritual growth/progress)—but to especially keep/honor and proclaim/defend the doctrines related to these seven "ones" (which are to be found in the Pauline epistles, thus are directly to and for us). To begin keeping the unity of the Spirit in the bond of the peace—as we’re commanded to do—we would need to understand at least the following:

The one Body: comprised of regenerated/converted individuals without regard to ethnic, gender, societal/cultural, and/or slave/free distinctions, who are—each and every one—indispensable and equal. As members of this Body, we need to know when/how it began, how it operates, and when/how it will end.

The one Spirit: the Holy Spirit Who regenerates us, baptizes us into Christ, drives us to the Word for nourishment/growth, intercedes for us in prayer, and (at the Rapture-Battle) will “quicken” our dead bodies, causing them to resurrect in incorruptibility and power.

The one Hope: in eternity, under the Headship of Christ, to dwell in the third-heaven and jointly-rule the created order.

The one Lord: Jesus Christ Who, more than 2000 years ago, poured out His soul unto death on a Roman execution stake—in our place, on our behalf, as our surety and substitute—in order to pay our sin debt in full, to justify us once-and-for-all-time before God, to provide for us a positive righteousness, and to present us to Himself as a glorious church, not having spot, or wrinkle, or any such thing, but standing holy and without blemish in Him.

The one Faith: the spiritual gift of God, comprised within the “new nature,” which enables the believer today to apply the grammatical-historical hermeneutic to the 66 books of the Protestant Bible, to recognize the three dispensations set forth therein, (i.e., the Gentile dispensation, the Jewish dispensation, and the Mystery or Body dispensation), and to identify the Mystery/Body dispensation as the one now in force—thus distinguishing Paul’s gospel/law/hope as that which is to be honored in his own life.

The one Baptism: the operation of God, in which the Holy Spirit baptizes us into the Body of Christ—identifying us with Christ in His death, burial, resurrection, ascension, and seating in the third-heaven—thus creating an eternal “vertical” bond between Christ and each member of His Body, and an eternal “horizontal” bond among all the joint-members, one with another.

The one God: the Father, Whose “inheritance” we are because He (in love) chose us in Christ before the foundation of the world, thus deliberately purposing to not spare his own Son but to deliver him up for us all—and, with Him, to also freely give us all things necessary for our spiritual growth, e.g., faith, love, repentance, understanding of the Scriptures, etc., thereby fitting us to dwell, in eternity, within “the inapproachable light,” as His inheritance.

May each blood-bought saint be diligent to search the Scriptures and see whether these things be so.

MK
This is great, M.K. Thanks!

What about others?
For MidActs Dispensationalists of all flavors, what are the doctrines that you see as most important? And why? Specifically, I'm referring to doctrines that are most identifiable with MidActs Dispensationalism.

I believe the most important doctrines overall are:
  • The gospel of Christ, which is the power of salvation unto all
  • Baptism by the Spirit into Christ, and understanding what that means
I believe those are GENERALLY more clearly understood from the MidActs perspective, but of course there are others that are not MidActs'ers that are very strong in one or both of these two areas. So I guess of the things that are very specifically characteristic of the MAD approach, perhaps I'd say that recognizing that the dispensation of grace could not have begun at Pentecost is pretty important. For a failure to see that results in a domino effect of errors, attributing things for Israel to the Body of Christ.

What do you say?

Randy
 

chickenman

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Jerry,
You say that those of us in the so-called "neo-MAD" camp need to learn to distinguish between things pertaining to national Israel versus individuals. You said that Daniel's prophecy of chapter 9, which speaks of 70 weeks to make an end of sin, to bring in everlasting righteousness, etc. pertains to national Israel. And I agree with that. Here's my question:

Who will enter into Israel's promised earthly kingdom? Could an Israelite who had not had his/her sins eternally forgiven enter into that promised earthly kingdom?

Thanks,
Randy
 

Jerry Shugart

Well-known member
The one Faith: the spiritual gift of God, comprised within the “new nature,” which enables the believer today to apply the grammatical-historical hermeneutic to the 66 books of the Protestant Bible, to recognize the three dispensations set forth therein, (i.e., the Gentile dispensation, the Jewish dispensation, and the Mystery or Body dispensation), and to identify the Mystery/Body dispensation as the one now in force—thus distinguishing Paul’s gospel/law/hope as that which is to be honored in his own life.

MK,

Just curious, but where do you place the beginning of what you call a "Gentile dispensation" and where do you begin the "Mystery or Body dispensation"?

Thanks!

In His grace,
Jerry
 

Jerry Shugart

Well-known member
We just need to drop the labels, drop the reliance on the "MAD" fathers as authoritative, and just believe what is written, let the chips fall where they fall.
STP,

I am having trouble attempting to reconcile your statement about just believing what is written and what you actually teach. Earlier you said
According to covenant promises, Peter's sins were paid for on the cross, but they would not be blotted out until the day of atonement at the 2nd coming. That's when he would be saved.
If the Jewish believers sins will not be blotted out or forgiven until sometime in the future then why does John tell them that their sins are already forgiven?:

"I write unto you, little children, because your sins are forgiven you for his name's sake" (1 Pet.2:12).

if the Jewish believers could not be saved until later then how do you explain the following words of the Lord Jesus spoken to one of those Jews?:

"And he said unto her, Thy sins are forgiven. And they that sat at meat with him began to say within themselves, Who is this that forgiveth sins also? And he said to the woman, Thy faith hath saved thee; go in peace" (Lk.7:48-50).

It seems to me that these verses directly contradict your teaching. Perhaps you can explain why they do not.

In His grace,
Jerry
 

M. K. Nawojski

New member
MK,

Just curious, but where do you place the beginning of what you call a "Gentile dispensation" and where do you begin the "Mystery or Body dispensation"?

Thanks!

In His grace,
Jerry


Thanks for your question.

First a bit of background information: I'd like to say that I have a great deal of respect for the early “dispensationalists.” Despite the fact that they held errors and inconsistencies (as do we all), it was their initial recognition/identification of Paul’s distinctive gospel that provided a “starting point” for the saints who would follow. And it was their deep, insightful, laborious wrestling with the inspired text—often in the face of focused and contemptuous opposition—that laid the groundwork for ongoing recovery of truth.

Their rejection of a “dispensation” as a mere period of time—and their insistence that it was rather the God-ordained "administration" or “management” of a particular grouping/segment of mankind—was monumental. Nonetheless, it was incomplete because it failed to note that, although circumstances and/or commandments within a dispensation or “household management” may change, the divine calling to a particular hope does not change . . . For the gifts and calling of God are without repentance” (Rom. 11:29).

If these “pioneers” in dispensational truth had realized that a dispensation is defined by its unchanging, i.e., its “sure and steadfast,” Hope (Heb. 6:19), then surely C. F. Baker would never have taught that there were twelve dispensations, C. I. Scofield would never have taught that there were seven dispensations, etc.—but they all would have recognized that there are only three dispensations set forth in Scripture . . . the first of which dealt with Gentiles/nations; the second of which dealt with God’s special/chosen nation; and the third of which deals with individuals regardless of their bloodline/nationality, as explained below in brief.

1. The Gentile dispensation includes/pertains to all nations which sprang from Adam, which nations are precisely the seventy bloodline/patriarchal “tribes” named in Gen. 10, with their “subsets”

The Gentile dispensation began with Adam. The first person to be regenerated into the Household of “righteous Gentiles” was Abel (followed by Seth).

The “gestation” (or transition) period of the Gentile dispensation extended from the creation of Adam to the establishment of the Noahic Covenant (Gen. 9:1-17), which covenant was of course applicable/in force on the bloodline nations named in Gen. 10 (and their subsets).

The Gentile commission is (a) to “replenish the earth,” i.e., to fill the earth with righteous offspring/tribes/nations; (b) to “have dominion” in the earth, i.e., to reign over non-human but sentient life, such as fish, fowls, animals (“fauna”); and (c) to subdue the earth, i.e., to maintain and bring man’s natural surroundings/non-sentient life (i.e., plants or “flora”) into subjection and order (Gen. 1:26-28 & 9:1).

The Hope of the “righteous Gentiles” is to dwell in the land allotted to their respective bloodlines/nations, in the eternal kingdom, fulfilling their God-given commission regarding the earth and submitting themselves to Israel, God’s “chosen” nation (Isa. 60:1-3; Amos 9:11-12; Rev. 21:22-26).

2. The Jewish dispensation includes/pertains to Israel, God’s Chosen Nation, which is comprised precisely of the twelve bloodline/patriarchal tribes descended from Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob (it also, in the nature of the case, pertains to the non-Jewish Gentiles/nations, which, by divine decree, are subsumed and brought under Jewish jurisdiction/oversight).

The Jewish dispensation began with Abram (whose name was changed to “Abraham”), and he was the first person to be regenerated into the Household of “righteous Jews.”

The gestation (or transition) period of the Jewish dispensation extended from the calling out of Abram (Gen. 12:1-4) to the establishment of the Mosaic Covenant at Sinai, which covenant was applicable/in force on the twelve tribes, as set forth in Numbers 26:4-63 (and their descendants).

The Jewish commission is to function as the chief/supreme nation in the earth and, as such, to instruct, govern, and mediate for the Gentiles (i.e., nations which are not descended from Abraham/Isaac/Jacob), and to function as a channel of blessings to them (Gen. 12:2-3; Heb. 11:8-10; Isa. 60:1-3; Amos 9:11-12; Matt. 28:19; Acts 3:13-26; Rev. 21:1-27).

The Hope of the “righteous Jews” is to dwell in the land promised to Abraham (with headquarters in the New Jerusalem), in the eternal kingdom (which for them, begins with the Millennial phase) and—as a nation of priests and kings (Ex. 19:6; cf. Rev. 1:6 & 5:10), governed by David (Eze. 34:23-24 & 37:24-25), the on-site regent of Jesus Messiah—to instruct, govern, and mediate for the Gentiles/nations around them.

3. The Mystery dispensation includes/pertains to the Body of Christ, which is the “fulness of Christ” in His humanity (Eph. 1:23), and which is comprised precisely of individuals without regard to bloodline/nationality, gender, and/or slave/free status (it also pertains to individuals outside the Body of Christ, i.e., the unbelievers who, by divine decree, will one day stand before the Great White Throne, to be judged according to Paul’s gospel [Rom. 2:16]).

The Body of Christ began with Saul of Tarsus (whose name was changed to “Paul”), and he was the first person to be regenerated into this neither-Jew-nor-Greek, neither-bond-nor-free, neither-male-nor-female Body.

The gestation (or transition) period of the one Body extends from the conversion of Saul of Tarsus in Acts 9, through the public proclamation of the Body in Acts 13, to the final setting aside of Israel in Acts 28:17-28, at which juncture the law codes that pertained under the Gentile and Jewish dispensations were rendered invalid (until the juncture when the Body of Christ leaves the world at the Rapture-Battle, and God again takes up His dealings with Israel and the Gentiles/nations). After Acts 28:17-28, “Pauline Law” (i.e., Paul’s gospel, in all the fulness of its detail-rich message) became applicable/in force over all of mankind.

The Body of Christ’s commission is to make all see what is the fellowship of the mystery (Eph. 3:9) by clearly and continuously proclaiming Paul’s gospel and consistently honoring/obeying “Pauline Law” in their doctrine and conduct.

The Body of Christ’s Hope is to dwell eternally in the third heaven with Christ, our one Lord/Head (Eph. 1:20-23), jointly governing the elect angels (I Cor. 6:3), who will be governing Israel (Heb. 1:14; Rev. 22:8-16; Matt. 13:37-50), who will be governing the Gentiles (Rev. 21:9-14).

When the God-given distinctions outlined above are observed, the clarity, accuracy, and uniformity of the Scriptures will be beautifully apparent. When they are blurred or ignored, the Bible will seem to be anecdotal, contradictory, and generally hard to understand. But in such cases, as always, the difficulty is not with God’s Word, which is flawless—but with man, who is flawed.

MK
 

Zeke

Well-known member
Howdy madman,

That's a good question. If Christ died for Peter's sins, just like he did for Paul, then why wasn't Peter in the Body of Christ like Paul?

I think the answer is that Peter was in good standing concerning the promises made unto the fathers concerning the King and the Kingdom. Jesus had said that he would "lay down his life for his friends". Peter was a "friend".

Here's Paul, persecuting the church of God, blaspheming, and the fiercest enemy of the Lord Jesus Christ. He would not be included in the New Covenant promise to Israel. The only way God could save him was identify him in Christ's death, burial, and resurrection.

According to covenant promises, Peter's sins were paid for on the cross, but they would not be blotted out until the day of atonement at the 2nd coming. That's when he would be saved. Although Christ died for Peter's sins, he was not identified in the death, burial, and resurrection.

The fact that there is a group of people identified in the d,b,r was a mystery.

It was a transition period where there was a Jewish church (friends) operating under the promises made unto the father looking forward to the kingdom and their salvation...and another church (former enemies) made up of Jews, Greeks, and alien Gentiles looking back to the cross and being identified with the d,b,r. They do not look forward to the king and kingdom for their salvation (those promises do not include them).

That's the best I can explain....maybe Randy can add more when he gets back.

Hi Stp.

Trouble is you have partaking gentiles being grafted into the olive tree along with the remnant of Israel as late as the Romans epistle, the kingdom Paul was looking for was the same one Peter preached in the Acts period. Not to beat a dead horse but Acts 26:22 is also scripture.
The concept of the one new man wasn't about being a partaker with the remnant of Israel it was a whole new hope, and calling post Acts.


Grace, Zeke.
 

Ktoyou

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STP,

I am having trouble attempting to reconcile your statement about just believing what is written and what you actually teach. Earlier you said

If the Jewish believers sins will not be blotted out or forgiven until sometime in the future then why does John tell them that their sins are already forgiven?:

"I write unto you, little children, because your sins are forgiven you for his name's sake" (1 Pet.2:12).

if the Jewish believers could not be saved until later then how do you explain the following words of the Lord Jesus spoken to one of those Jews?:

"And he said unto her, Thy sins are forgiven. And they that sat at meat with him began to say within themselves, Who is this that forgiveth sins also? And he said to the woman, Thy faith hath saved thee; go in peace" (Lk.7:48-50).

It seems to me that these verses directly contradict your teaching. Perhaps you can explain why they do not.

In His grace,
Jerry

Who was John addressing? Who was Luke addressing?
It is not the issue that Jews cannot be in the Body of Christ, rather it is who accepted Jesus in faith, who became a Christian.
 

Jerry Shugart

Well-known member
Their rejection of a “dispensation” as a mere period of time—and their insistence that it was rather the God-ordained "administration" or “management” of a particular grouping/segment of mankind—was monumental. Nonetheless, it was incomplete because it failed to note that, although circumstances and/or commandments within a dispensation or “household management” may change, the divine calling to a particular hope does not change . . . For the gifts and calling of God are without repentance” (Rom. 11:29).
MK,

As you probably know, the Greek word translated "dispensation" actually refers to a "stewardship." Although a "stewardship" is a dispensation not all dispensations are stewardships.

The Greek word translated "dispensation" is oikonomia, and the root of that word means "the manager of a household, steward" (Thayer's Greek English Lexicon).

So the word oikonomia means "the management of a household, stewardship."

And what governs a "stewardship" is the specific commandment or commandments that are given which mark the beginning of a new stewardship and controls the specific responsibilities under that stewardship.

But you say that it is the divine calling to a particular hope that marks the beginning of a stewardship. However, that betrays a lack of understanding in regard to the basic stewardship arrangement.

Adam was given a responsibility to abstain from partaking of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, hence the "dispensation of innonence."

After man had an inborn knowledge of good and evil (by the conscience) he was under an obligation that his actions should be in accordance with his conscience--the "dispensation of conscience."

Later man was given the responsibility for capital punishment, thereby setting in motion the "dispensation of government."

I will not go into all the different dispensations at this point but it is clear that a particular stewardship begins when the Lord gives men new stewardship responsibilities--and not according to any "hope" which may be in effect during a period of time.

For a study on the various dispensations you can go to the following site entitled Dispensationalism Made Easy:

http://twonewcovenants.com/dme/dispensationalism1.html

In His grace,
Jerry
 

M. K. Nawojski

New member
MK,

As you probably know, the Greek word translated "dispensation" actually refers to a "stewardship." Although a "stewardship" is a dispensation not all dispensations are stewardships.

The Greek word translated "dispensation" is oikonomia, and the root of that word means "the manager of a household, steward" (Thayer's Greek English Lexicon).

So the word oikonomia means "the management of a household, stewardship."

And what governs a "stewardship" is the specific commandment or commandments that are given which mark the beginning of a new stewardship and controls the specific responsibilities under that stewardship.

But you say that it is the divine calling to a particular hope that marks the beginning of a stewardship. However, that betrays a lack of understanding in regard to the basic stewardship arrangement.

Adam was given a responsibility to abstain from partaking of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, hence the "dispensation of innonence."

After man had an inborn knowledge of good and evil (by the conscience) he was under an obligation that his actions should be in accordance with his conscience--the "dispensation of conscience."

Later man was given the responsibility for capital punishment, thereby setting in motion the "dispensation of government."

I will not go into all the different dispensations at this point but it is clear that a particular stewardship begins when the Lord gives men new stewardship responsibilities--and not according to any "hope" which may be in effect during a period of time.

For a study on the various dispensations you can go to the following site entitled Dispensationalism Made Easy:

http://twonewcovenants.com/dme/dispensationalism1.html

In His grace,
Jerry

Yes, I'm familiar with this view, having been a mid-Acts dispensationalist for more than 50 years . . . and a close acquaintance of C. R. Stam, Win Johnson, Ivan Burgener, etc. in the 1970's.

I'm not one of the folks who access TOL in order to incite debate, nor am I trying to convince anyone of my personal views. I have neither the time nor the energy for such. I'm here (now and again) to catch up on the posts of Hilston, Chickenman, STP, and a few other members whose knowledge of the Truth makes the “visit” worthwhile.

The fact that I myself also submit the occasional post rests on my conviction that God is honored when His Word is proclaimed—and that He will use the clear, faithful proclamation of His Word to accomplish His purpose (Isa. 55:8-11)—regardless of any temporal indication/appearance to the contrary (II Cor. 2:16).

MK
 

chickenman

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Jerry,
You say that those of us in the so-called "neo-MAD" camp need to learn to distinguish between things pertaining to national Israel versus individuals. You said that Daniel's prophecy of chapter 9, which speaks of 70 weeks to make an end of sin, to bring in everlasting righteousness, etc. pertains to national Israel. And I agree with that. Here's my question:

Who will enter into Israel's promised earthly kingdom? Could an Israelite who had not had his/her sins eternally forgiven enter into that promised earthly kingdom?

Thanks,
Randy

I'm reposting this in case you missed it, Jerry. If you're not interested, no worries. Just making sure it wasn't accidentally overlooked.

Thanks,
Randy
 

Jerry Shugart

Well-known member
I'm reposting this in case you missed it, Jerry. If you're not interested, no worries. Just making sure it wasn't accidentally overlooked.
Hi Randy,

Let us look at what you asked:
You say that those of us in the so-called "neo-MAD" camp need to learn to distinguish between things pertaining to national Israel versus individuals. You said that Daniel's prophecy of chapter 9, which speaks of 70 weeks to make an end of sin, to bring in everlasting righteousness, etc. pertains to national Israel. And I agree with that. Here's my question:

Who will enter into Israel's promised earthly kingdom? Could an Israelite who had not had his/her sins eternally forgiven enter into that promised earthly kingdom?
There will be a specific generation of Jews who will enter into the promised earthly kingdom in their flesh and blood bodies. That will happen when the nation of Israel as a whole says, "Blessed is He that cometh in the name of the Lord" (Mt.23:39; Zech.37, Ro.11:26-27).

Also, the dead saints from previous dispensations will be resurrected and will enter into the earthly kingdom. Those in the Body of Christ, who by that time will have already put on new, glorious bodies, will return with the Lord Jesus when He comes to rule in the earthly kingdom. We know that that is true because Paul tells us that from the moment we are caught up to meet the Lord in the air that "we will ever be with the Lord" (1 Thess.4:17).

Not one person who has not had his/her sins eternally forgiven will enter into that kingdom.

In His grace,
Jerry
 

chickenman

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Thanks, Jerry.

So what is the national "end of sins", "reconciliation for iniquity", and "everlasting righteousness" for, following the 70 weeks, if individuals already have those things before then?

Just trying to fully understand your view.

Thanks,
Rany
 
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