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  • Originally posted by heir View Post
    Yes, gospel=good news and the good news of Christ is that Christ died for our sins (the WHY of the cross) and that He was buried and rose again the third day 1 Corinthians 15:1-4 KJV)!
    It was also good news to the Jews that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God. And belief in that good news brought salvation (Jn.20:31; 1 Jn.5:1-5).

    And it was that "good news" which was first preached to the Jews. So you cannot eliminate that good news from this verse:
    "For I am not ashamed of the gospel (good news) of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; to the Jew first, and also to the Greek" (Ro.1"16).

    Next, once again I will ask you exactly what is the content of the gospel of the circumcision spoken of here:
    "But contrariwise, when they saw that the gospel of the uncircumcision was committed unto me, as the gospel of the circumcision was unto Peter" (Gal.2:7).

    Were Paul and Peter preaching two different gospels to the Jews at the same time during the Acts period?

    Comment


    • Originally posted by Jerry Shugart View Post
      It was also good news to the Jews that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God. And belief in that good news brought salvation (Jn.20:31; 1 Jn.5:1-5).

      And it was that "good news" which was first preached to the Jews. So you cannot eliminate that good news from this verse:
      "For I am not ashamed of the gospel (good news) of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; to the Jew first, and also to the Greek" (Ro.1"16).
      The gospel of Christ is a specific gospel. For the life of me, I don't know why you struggle with this fact.
      Next, once again I will ask you exactly what is the content of the gospel of the circumcision spoken of here:
      "But contrariwise, when they saw that the gospel of the uncircumcision was committed unto me, as the gospel of the circumcision was unto Peter" (Gal.2:7).
      I think that's the first time you posed that question, but sure. It is the gospel of the kingdom minus the details of the kingdom being "at hand"/times or the seasons missing (Acts 1:7 KJV).

      Were Paul and Peter preaching two different gospels to the Jews at the same time during the Acts period?
      That question is answered here:

      Galatians 2:7 But contrariwise, when they saw that the gospel of the uncircumcision was committed unto me, as the gospel of the circumcision was unto Peter;
      2 Timothy 2:15 Study to shew thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth.

      Paul defines the word of truth as the gospel of your salvation (1 Corinthians 15:1-4 KJV, Ephesians 1:13 KJV). Now, study to shew thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed by rightly dividing it!

      Comment


      • Originally posted by heir View Post
        I think that's the first time you posed that question, but sure. It is the gospel of the kingdom minus the details of the kingdom being "at hand"/times or the seasons missing (Acts 1:7 KJV).
        So the "gospel of the circumcision" is the "gospel of the kingdom" minus the fact that the kingdom was no longer at hand. But you fail to tell me the content of what Peter was preaching during the Acts period. Did belief in that "gospel of the kingdom" bring salvation to those who believed it?

        That question is answered here:

        Galatians 2:7 But contrariwise, when they saw that the gospel of the uncircumcision was committed unto me, as the gospel of the circumcision was unto Peter;
        Are you not aware that Paul was actually preaching to the Jews during the Acts period? Here we see that happening at Acts 17:
        "Now when they had passed through Amphipolis and Apollonia, they came to Thessalonica, where was a synagogue of the Jews: And Paul, as his manner was, went in unto them, and three sabbath days reasoned with them out of the scriptures, Opening and alleging, that Christ must needs have suffered, and risen again from the dead; and that this Jesus, whom I preach unto you, is Christ" (Acts17:2,30).

        Again, were Paul and Peter preaching the same gospel message to the Jews during the Acts period?

        The gospel of Christ is a specific gospel. For the life of me, I don't know why you struggle with this fact.
        It is the "good news" of Christ and you admitted that there is more than one instance of the "good news" of Christ. And you give no proof that when Paul speaks of the "gospel of grace" at Romans 1:16 that he is referring to only one instance of "good news" of Christ.

        You display a lack of the ability to reason out of the Scriptures. Your preconceived ideas have blinded you to the truth.

        Comment


        • Originally posted by Jerry Shugart View Post
          So the "gospel of the circumcision" is the "gospel of the kingdom" minus the fact that the kingdom was no longer at hand. But you fail to tell me the content of what Peter was preaching during the Acts period.
          He preached a murder indictment to all the house of Israel Acts 2:22-39 KJV
          Did belief in that "gospel of the kingdom" bring salvation to those who believed it?
          Only from apostate Israel were they "saved" Acts 2:40 KJV. They were added to a church such as "should be saved" (Acts 2:47 KJV). It is future as is their day of atonement!

          Are you not aware that Paul was actually preaching to the Jews during the Acts period? Here we see that happening at Acts 17:
          I am fully aware that Paul preached to the Jew first and also to the Greek as I have testified over and over.

          Again, were Paul and Peter preaching the same gospel message to the Jews during the Acts period?
          That's a trick question as both Paul and Peter can be seen preaching the gospel of God, but Paul never preached the gospel of the kingdom nor did Peter preach Paul's gospel (which is the gospel of Christ) as the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth.

          It is the "good news" of Christ and you admitted that there is more than one instance of the "good news" of Christ. And you give no proof that when Paul speaks of the "gospel of grace" at Romans 1:16 that he is referring to only one instance of "good news" of Christ.
          There is no "gospel of grace". That is a made up term. And just what are you saying this "gospel of grace" is as I've seen you in more than one post in other threads claim that believing Jesus Christ is the Son of God is enough to save? What was the point of Paul preaching to the Romans who already had a faith in Romans 1:1-4 KJV?

          You display a lack of the ability to reason out of the Scriptures.
          I disagree. You just don't like my answers from the scriptures.
          Your preconceived ideas have blinded you to the truth.
          I wholeheartedly disagree. I study (2 Timothy 2:15 KJV) my KJB every day, am taught by the Holy Ghost every day (1 Corinthians 2:13 KJV) and am strengthened with might by His Spirit in the inner man (Ephesians 3:16 KJV).
          Last edited by heir; May 27th, 2015, 06:53 PM.
          2 Timothy 2:15 Study to shew thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth.

          Paul defines the word of truth as the gospel of your salvation (1 Corinthians 15:1-4 KJV, Ephesians 1:13 KJV). Now, study to shew thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed by rightly dividing it!

          Comment


          • Originally posted by heir View Post
            He preached a murder indictment to all the house of Israel Acts 2:22-39 KJV
            Surely you are not saying that that is the "good news" of the circumcision?

            Only from apostate Israel were they "saved" Acts 2:40 KJV. They were added to a church such as "should be saved" (Acts 2:47 KJV). It is future as is their day of atonement!
            "praising God, and having favor with all the people. And the Lord added to them day by day those that were saved" (Acts 2:47; ASV).

            That's a trick question as both Paul and Peter can be seen preaching the gospel of God, but Paul never preached the gospel of the kingdom nor did Peter preach Paul's gospel (which is the gospel of Christ) as the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth.
            They were preaching the same thing. We have an uninterrupted sermon preached by Peter on the day of Pentecost beginning at Acts 2:14 and ending at Acts 2:36. and Peter ends His sermon by saying:
            "Therefore let all the house of Israel know assuredly, that God hath made the same Jesus, whom ye have crucified, both Lord and Christ" (Acts 2:36).

            Here is what Paul preached to the Jews:
            "And straightway he preached Christ in the synagogues, that he is the Son of God...proving that this is the very Christ" (Acts 9:20,22).

            There is no "gospel of grace". That is a made up term.
            Technically, it is called "the gospel of the grace of God."

            And just what are you saying this "gospel of grace" is as I've seen you in more than one post in other threads claim that believing Jesus Christ is the Son of God is enough to save?
            You really need to read the Bible because those who believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God, receive life because they believe that truth:
            "But these are written, that ye might believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God; and that believing ye might have life through his name" (Jn.20:31).

            Those who believe the same truth are born of God:
            "Whosoever believeth that Jesus is the Christ is born of God: and every one that loveth him that begat loveth him also that is begotten of him. By this we know that we love the children of God, when we love God, and keep his commandments. For this is the love of God, that we keep his commandments: and his commandments are not grievous. For whatsoever is born of God overcometh the world: and this is the victory that overcometh the world, even our faith. Who is he that overcometh the world, but he that believeth that Jesus is the Son of God?" (1 Jn.5:1-5).

            I study (2 Timothy 2:15 KJV) my KJB every day, am taught by the Holy Ghost every day (1 Corinthians 2:13 KJV) and am strengthened with might by His Spirit in the inner man (Ephesians 3:16 KJV).
            You could have fooled me. I see no evidence that you have read John 20:31 or 1 John 5:1-5. If you have read them and still remain ignorant of what those verses say then it is obvious that you are not being taught by the Holy Ghost.

            Comment


            • Posted this elsewhere, but its also relevant here:

              Originally posted by Jerry Shugart View Post
              No, Paul had not yet gone to Arabia at that time.
              "But when God, who set me apart from birth and called me by his grace, was pleased to reveal his Son in me so that I might preach him among the Gentiles, I did not consult any man, nor did I go up to Jerusalem to see those who were apostles before I was, but I went immediately into Arabia and later returned to Damascus" (Gal.1:15-17; NIV).

              After Paul's encounter with the Lord on the Damascus road he went immediately to Damascus and not Arabia. And the verses which I quoted are a narrative of the events since he arrived in Damascus and do not show any trip to Arabia. That trip had to come later.
              It appears to read as follows...

              Acts 9:

              8. And Saul arose from the earth; and when his eyes were opened, he saw no man: but they led him by the hand, and brought him into Damascus.

              19. And when he had received meat, he was strengthened. Then was Saul certain days with the disciples which were at Damascus.
              20. And straightway he preached Christ in the synagogues, that he is the Son of God.

              Then you have the Galatians account - Galatians 1:

              15. But when it pleased God, who separated me from my mother's womb, and called me by his grace,
              16. To reveal his Son in me, that I might preach him among the heathen; immediately I conferred not with flesh and blood:
              17. Neither went I up to Jerusalem to them which were apostles before me; but I went into Arabia, and returned again unto Damascus.

              Verse 16 relates what Ananias was told by the Lord to relate to Paul, as Ananias was being used of the Lord as a witness before Israel and the Believing remnant not only of Paul's conversion, but of his having been sent to the Gentiles before Israel's due time conversion.

              Acts 22:

              10. And I said, What shall I do, LORD? And the Lord said unto me, Arise, and go into Damascus; and there it shall be told thee of all things which are appointed for thee to do.
              11. And when I could not see for the glory of that light, being led by the hand of them that were with me, I came into Damascus.
              12. And one Ananias, a devout man according to the law, having a good report of all the Jews which dwelt there,
              13. Came unto me, and stood, and said unto me, Brother Saul, receive thy sight. And the same hour I looked up upon him.
              14. And he said, The God of our fathers hath chosen thee, that thou shouldest know his will, and see that Just One, and shouldest hear the voice of his mouth.
              15. For thou shalt be his witness unto all men of what thou hast seen and heard.

              The details of verse 15, as to what Ananias related to Paul from the Lord?

              Acts 9:

              13. Then Ananias answered, Lord, I have heard by many of this man, how much evil he hath done to thy saints at Jerusalem:
              14. And here he hath authority from the chief priests to bind all that call on thy name.
              15. But the Lord said unto him, Go thy way: for he is a chosen vessel unto me, to bear my name before the Gentiles, and kings, and the children of Israel:
              16. For I will shew him how great things he must suffer for my name's sake.

              Why Ananias?

              Because he, being "a devout man according to the law, having a good report of all the Jews which dwelt there," 22:12, was a perfect witness as a bridge of the change now afoot.

              A change that would be suspect, as Acts records it was for a time. The means around this being a witness well known for being devout according to the law - Isaiah 8:

              18. Behold, I and the children whom the LORD hath given me are for signs and for wonders in Israel from the LORD of hosts, which dwelleth in mount Zion.
              19. And when they shall say unto you, Seek unto them that have familiar spirits, and unto wizards that peep, and that mutter: should not a people seek unto their God? for the living to the dead?
              20. To the law and to the testimony: if they speak not according to this word, it is because there is no light in them.

              Later, Barnabas would also be a witness of good report among all the Jews, whom the Lord would use as a witness of Paul's validity, Acts 4:36, 37; 9:26, 27.

              In fact, whenever I deal with Messianics who assert Isaiah 8:20against Paul, the above are some of the examples I make use of.

              But anyway, we have this, that appears to read as follows...

              Acts 9:

              8. And Saul arose from the earth; and when his eyes were opened, he saw no man: but they led him by the hand, and brought him into Damascus.

              19. And when he had received meat, he was strengthened. Then was Saul certain days with the disciples which were at Damascus.
              20. And straightway he preached Christ in the synagogues, that he is the Son of God.

              Then you have the Galatians account - Galatians 1:

              15. But when it pleased God, who separated me from my mother's womb, and called me by his grace,
              16. To reveal his Son in me, that I might preach him among the heathen; immediately I conferred not with flesh and blood:
              17. Neither went I up to Jerusalem to them which were apostles before me; but I went into Arabia, and returned again unto Damascus.

              Together, in light of the above, they read as follows:

              Acts 9:19

              A. And when he had received meat, he was strengthened.

              Paul has just found out the following from Ananias - Galatians 1:

              15. ...pleased God, who separated me from my mother's womb, and called me by his grace,
              16. To reveal his Son in me, that I might preach him among the heathen; immediately I conferred not with flesh and blood:
              17. Neither went I up to Jerusalem to them which were apostles before me; but I went into Arabia, and returned again unto Damascus.

              It is then - after his return from Arabia - that Acts 9:19 B comes in - "Then was Saul certain days with the disciples which were at Damascus.
              20. And straightway he preached Christ in the synagogues, that he is the Son of God.

              In short, he goes into Damascus in a state of shock for he has met face to face with the God of his fathers, in the person of God the Son: Jesus of Nazareth.

              Remember the shock of 911 on the world?

              Well, here was Paul's - Acts 9:11

              And the Lord said unto him, Arise, and go into the street which is called Straight, and enquire in the house of Judas for one called Saul, of Tarsus: for, behold, he prayeth,

              Shock being that sate where a total re-orientation often begins.

              In Damascus, now all ears - literally! - he is informed by Ananias ...The God of our fathers hath chosen thee, that thou shouldest know his will, and see that Just One, and shouldest hear the voice of his mouth. Acts 22:14.

              The details of which are... Acts 9:15's..."he is a chosen vessel unto me, to bear my name before the Gentiles, and kings, and the children of Israel:

              16. For I will shew him how great things he must suffer for my name's sake.

              Which Paul summarizes in Galatians 1 as:

              15. But when it pleased God, who separated me from my mother's womb, and called me by his grace,
              16. To reveal his Son in me, that I might preach him among the heathen; immediately I conferred not with flesh and blood:
              17. Neither went I up to Jerusalem to them which were apostles before me; but I went into Arabia, and returned again unto Damascus.

              And Acts relates - Acts 9: 19B...Then was Saul certain days with the
              disciples which were at Damascus.
              20. And straightway he preached Christ in the synagogues, that he is the Son of God.

              In short, in Arabia, he learns directly from the God of his fathers, just as Moses had centuries before him.

              What does he learn?

              Galatians 4:

              25. For this Agar is mount Sinai in Arabia, and answereth to Jerusalem which now is, and is in bondage with her children.
              26. But Jerusalem which is above is free, which is the mother of us all.

              2 Corinthians 3:

              14. ...their minds were blinded: for until this day remaineth the same vail untaken away in the reading of the old testament; which vail is done away in Christ.
              15. ...even unto this day, when Moses is read, the vail is upon their heart.

              Thus, he is preaching to the Jew first that Jesus is the Son of Christ, knowing full well that Jerusalem has been concluded in bondage with her children.

              The intent of this "to the Jew first" being two-fold - that he "might save some" even as Israel is "diminishing away" to its status before God now as just another heathen nation, but also, as a continuing witness against their own, witness against themselves in their continuing resistance of the Holy Spirit speaking to them now, through Paul, Acts 13; Romans 9-11.

              As he later reminded the Thessalonians of Acts 17 - to whom he had also preached that "Jesus is very Christ..."

              1 Thessalonians 2:

              13. For this cause also thank we God without ceasing, because, when ye received the word of God which ye heard of us, ye received it not as the word of men, but as it is in truth, the word of
              God, which effectually worketh also in you that believe.
              14. For ye, brethren, became followers of the churches of God which in Judaea are in Christ Jesus: for ye also have suffered like things of your own countrymen, even as they have of the Jews:
              15. Who both killed the Lord Jesus, and their own prophets, and have persecuted us; and they please not God, and are contrary to all men:
              16. Forbidding us to speak to the Gentiles that they might be saved, to fill up their sins alway: for the wrath is come upon them to the uttermost.

              That's what; the first or second epistle he wrote not to long after his having first met them Mid-Acts.

              Read both 1 and 2 Thessalonians - see all that Paul is merely reminding them of as to what he had preached and taught unto them - Romans / Ephesians truth through and through.

              Comment


              • Originally posted by Danoh View Post
                Then you have the Galatians account - Galatians 1:

                15. But when it pleased God, who separated me from my mother's womb, and called me by his grace,
                16. To reveal his Son in me, that I might preach him among the heathen; immediately I conferred not with flesh and blood:
                17. Neither went I up to Jerusalem to them which were apostles before me; but I went into Arabia, and returned again unto Damascus.

                Verse 16 relates what Ananias was told by the Lord to relate to Paul, as Ananias was being used of the Lord as a witness before Israel and the Believing remnant not only of Paul's conversion, but of his having been sent to the Gentiles before Israel's due time conversion.
                You overlook the fact that the Lord told Paul directly that He would be going to the Gentiles (Acts 26:17).

                Paul has just found out the following from Ananias - Galatians 1:

                15. ...pleased God, who separated me from my mother's womb, and called me by his grace,
                16. To reveal his Son in me, that I might preach him among the heathen; immediately I conferred not with flesh and blood:
                17. Neither went I up to Jerusalem to them which were apostles before me; but I went into Arabia, and returned again unto Damascus.
                Again, Paul had learned directly from the Lord that he would be sent to the Gentiles.

                It is then - after his return from Arabia - that Acts 9:19 B comes in - "Then was Saul certain days with the disciples which were at Damascus.
                20. And straightway he preached Christ in the synagogues, that he is the Son of God.
                Look at the narrative beginning at Acts 9:6 through 9:29 and there is no place for a trip to Arabia.

                The event which Paul describes at Galatians 1:15-17 had to happen later, perhaps after Acts 12:25.

                Comment


                • Originally posted by Jerry Shugart View Post
                  Surely you are not saying that that is the "good news" of the circumcision?
                  It's a murder indictment against all the house of Israel, but the good news that God hath raised Christ up! You should actually read it!

                  Acts 2:22 Ye men of Israel, hear these words; Jesus of Nazareth, a man approved of God among you by miracles and wonders and signs, which God did by him in the midst of you, as ye yourselves also know:
                  Acts 2:23 Him, being delivered by the determinate counsel and foreknowledge of God, ye have taken, and by wicked hands have crucified and slain:
                  Acts 2:24 Whom God hath raised up, having loosed the pains of death: because it was not possible that he should be holden of it.
                  Acts 2:25 For David speaketh concerning him, I foresaw the Lord always before my face, for he is on my right hand, that I should not be moved:
                  Acts 2:26 Therefore did my heart rejoice, and my tongue was glad; moreover also my flesh shall rest in hope:
                  Acts 2:27 Because thou wilt not leave my soul in hell, neither wilt thou suffer thine Holy One to see corruption.
                  Acts 2:28 Thou hast made known to me the ways of life; thou shalt make me full of joy with thy countenance.
                  Acts 2:29 Men and brethren, let me freely speak unto you of the patriarch David, that he is both dead and buried, and his sepulchre is with us unto this day.
                  Acts 2:30 Therefore being a prophet, and knowing that God had sworn with an oath to him, that of the fruit of his loins, according to the flesh, he would raise up Christ to sit on his throne;
                  Acts 2:31 He seeing this before spake of the resurrection of Christ, that his soul was not left in hell, neither his flesh did see corruption.
                  Acts 2:32 This Jesus hath God raised up, whereof we all are witnesses.
                  Acts 2:33 Therefore being by the right hand of God exalted, and having received of the Father the promise of the Holy Ghost, he hath shed forth this, which ye now see and hear.
                  Acts 2:34 For David is not ascended into the heavens: but he saith himself, The LORD said unto my Lord, Sit thou on my right hand,
                  Acts 2:35 Until I make thy foes thy footstool.
                  Acts 2:36 Therefore let all the house of Israel know assuredly, that God hath made that same Jesus, whom ye have crucified, both Lord and Christ.
                  Acts 2:37 Now when they heard this, they were pricked in their heart, and said unto Peter and to the rest of the apostles, Men and brethren, what shall we do?
                  Acts 2:38 Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.
                  Acts 2:39 For the promise is unto you, and to your children, and to all that are afar off, even as many as the Lord our God shall call.

                  "praising God, and having favor with all the people. And the Lord added to them day by day those that were saved" (Acts 2:47; ASV).
                  No, Jerry. It says “such as should be saved”! There’s no need to use a perverted text/corrupted word of God (2 Corinthians 2:17 KJV)!

                  Acts 2:47 Praising God, and having favour with all the people. And the Lord added to the church daily such as should be saved.

                  We all know they must endure to the end to be saved!

                  Matthew 10:22 And ye shall be hated of all men for my name's sake: but he that endureth to the end shall be saved.

                  They were preaching the same thing. We have an uninterrupted sermon preached by Peter on the day of Pentecost beginning at Acts 2:14 and ending at Acts 2:36. and Peter ends His sermon by saying:

                  "Therefore let all the house of Israel know assuredly, that God hath made the same Jesus, whom ye have crucified, both Lord and Christ" (Acts 2:36).
                  Here is what Paul preached to the Jews:

                  "And straightway he preached Christ in the synagogues, that he is the Son of God...proving that this is the very Christ" (Acts 9:20,22).
                  This is that, that I told you in another thread:

                  Galatians 1:23 But they had heard only, That he which persecuted us in times past now preacheth the faith which once he destroyed.

                  As in:

                  Matthew 16:13 When Jesus came into the coasts of Caesarea Philippi, he asked his disciples, saying, Whom do men say that I the Son of man am?

                  Matthew 16:14 And they said, Some say that thou art John the Baptist: some, Elias; and others, Jeremias, or one of the prophets.

                  Matthew 16:15 He saith unto them, But whom say ye that I am?

                  Matthew 16:16 And Simon Peter answered and said, Thou art the Christ, the Son of the living God.

                  That is NOT the gospel of Christ!
                  I don’t know what you think it is that you are proving except your ignorance of the scriptures!

                  I've also told you before that both Peter and Paul preached the gospel of God which is essentially, the WHO of Jesus Christ and that God raised Him from the dead. What did Peter say was the reason that God raised Christ from the dead? And Paul? If those are different (and they are), will you still call them the same?

                  And what is the point of the cross/ what it accomplished? And here another question that I asked you before that I would like answered:


                  What was the point of Paul preaching to the Romans who already had a faith in Romans 1:1-4 KJV?

                  You really need to read the Bible because those who believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God, receive life because they believe that truth:

                  "But these are written, that ye might believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God; and that believing ye might have life through his name"(Jn.20:31).

                  Those who believe the same truth are born of God:

                  "Whosoever believeth that Jesus is the Christ is born of God: and every one that loveth him that begat loveth him also that is begotten of him. By this we know that we love the children of God, when we love God, and keep his commandments. For this is the love of God, that we keep his commandments: and his commandments are not grievous. For whatsoever is born of God overcometh the world: and this is the victory that overcometh the world, even our faith. Who is he that overcometh the world, but he that believeth that Jesus is the Son of God?" (1 Jn.5:1-5).

                  You could have fooled me. I see no evidence that you have read John 20:31 or 1 John 5:1-5. If you have read them and still remain ignorant of what those verses say then it is obvious that you are not being taught by the Holy Ghost.
                  Don’t be ignorant! Those people showed their faith by their works (James 2:18 KJV, James 2:20 KJV). Their salvation is dependent upon them doing something by faith:

                  Repent, and believe the gospel (Mark 1:4 KJV) by baptism of repentance for the remission of sins (Mark 1:4 KJV, Mark 16:16 KJV, Acts 2:38 KJV)
                  keep the commandments (John 14:15 KJV, Matthew 23:2-3 KJV, John 15:5-10 KJV, 1 John 5:3 KJV
                  endure to the end to be saved (Matthew 10:22 KJV),
                  go through the trial of their faith (1 Peter 1:7 KJV),
                  receiving the end of their faith, even the salvation of their souls (1 Peter 1:9 KJV)
                  their salvation is of the grace that "should" come unto them (Acts 15:11 KJV, 1 Peter 1:10 KJV)

                  They look forward that their sins may be blotted out, when the times of refreshing shall come from the presence of the Lord (which is at what many refer to as the second coming of the Lord (Acts 3:19-21 KJV). This is also in one accord with the ever popular and hijacked 1 John 1:9 KJV.

                  None of which is true of a member of the body of Christ!
                  2 Timothy 2:15 Study to shew thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth.

                  Paul defines the word of truth as the gospel of your salvation (1 Corinthians 15:1-4 KJV, Ephesians 1:13 KJV). Now, study to shew thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed by rightly dividing it!

                  Comment


                  • Originally posted by heir View Post
                    Don’t be ignorant! Those people showed their faith by their works (James 2:18 KJV, James 2:20 KJV). Their salvation is dependent upon them doing something by faith:
                    You are the one who is ignorant, not me. I gave you these verse which demonstrate that the Jews received life and were born again when they believed that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God:
                    "But these are written, that ye might believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God; and that believing ye might have life through his name" (Jn.20:31).

                    Those who believe the same truth are born of God:
                    "Whosoever believeth that Jesus is the Christ is born of God: and every one that loveth him that begat loveth him also that is begotten of him. By this we know that we love the children of God, when we love God, and keep his commandments. For this is the love of God, that we keep his commandments: and his commandments are not grievous. For whatsoever is born of God overcometh the world: and this is the victory that overcometh the world, even our faith. Who is he that overcometh the world, but he that believeth that Jesus is the Son of God?" (1 Jn.5:1-5).

                    You just ignored those verses as if they didn't even exist. You just close your eyes to the truth so that you can cling to what some say about the Scriptures instead of what the Scriptures actually say.

                    Those people showed their faith by their works (James 2:18 KJV, James 2:20 KJV).
                    You obviously do not know what James is teaching in the second chapter of his epistle. If you want the truth of what James teaches about how one is saved or born of God then don't close your eyes to what he says here:
                    "Of his own will begat he us with the word of truth, that we should be a kind of firstfruits of his creatures" (James 1:18).

                    Because of your preconceived ideas I am sure that you will reject what is said there just as you rejected the truth found at John 20:31 and at 1 John 5:1-5. Here is another truth you can reject:
                    "Being born again, not of corruptible seed, but of incorruptible, by the word of God...And this is the word which by the gospel is preached unto you" (1 Pet.1:23,25).

                    It's time for you to stick your head in the sand again. And make sure that you just ignore what is said here:
                    "For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life" (Jn.3:16).

                    And you call me ignorant. That is a laugh!

                    Comment


                    • Originally posted by heir View Post
                      Don’t be ignorant! Those people showed their faith by their works (James 2:18 KJV, James 2:20 KJV). Their salvation is dependent upon them doing something by faith:

                      Repent, and believe the gospel (Mark 1:4 KJV) by baptism of repentance for the remission of sins (Mark 1:4 KJV, Mark 16:16 KJV, Acts 2:38 KJV)
                      keep the commandments (John 14:15 KJV, Matthew 23:2-3 KJV, John 15:5-10 KJV, 1 John 5:3 KJV
                      endure to the end to be saved (Matthew 10:22 KJV),
                      go through the trial of their faith (1 Peter 1:7 KJV),
                      receiving the end of their faith, even the salvation of their souls (1 Peter 1:9 KJV)
                      their salvation is of the grace that "should" come unto them (Acts 15:11 KJV, 1 Peter 1:10 KJV)

                      They look forward that their sins may be blotted out, when the times of refreshing shall come from the presence of the Lord (which is at what many refer to as the second coming of the Lord (Acts 3:19-21 KJV). This is also in one accord with the ever popular and hijacked 1 John 1:9 KJV.

                      None of which is true of a member of the body of Christ!
                      Originally posted by Interplanner
                      They can't compete with a real writer and grammar scholar
                      Originally posted by Interplanner
                      You're too literal to get it.
                      Originally posted by Interplanner
                      The New Covenant preceded the Old Covenant.

                      Comment


                      • Originally posted by SaulToPaul View Post
                        So you think that heir is right when she says:

                        Their salvation is dependent upon them doing something by faith.
                        Perhaps you will address these words spoken by the Lord Jesus and addressed to the Jews who lived under the law:
                        "Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life" (Jn.5:24; KJV).

                        In this verse the Greek word translated "believeth" and the Greek word translated "hath" are both in the "present" tense.

                        In The Blue Letter Bible we read the following meaning of the present tense:
                        "The present tense represents a simple statement of fact or reality viewed as occurring in actual time. In most cases this corresponds directly with the English present tense."

                        Therefore, John 5:24 is saying that those who were believing at the time the Lord Jesus spoke those words had already received eternal life. That is what is meant as something being "viewed as occuring in actual time."

                        Since the believers received everlasting life the moment they believed then I do not see how any works could contribute in anyway to what they already had, the promise of everlasting life and the promise that they would not come into condemnation.

                        If I am misunderstanding the words of the Lord Jesus then please tell me where I am wrong.

                        Comment


                        • John 5:24 Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life.

                          John 5:25 Verily, verily, I say unto you, The hour is coming, and now is, when the dead shall hear the voice of the Son of God: and they that hear shall live.

                          John 5:26 For as the Father hath life in himself; so hath he given to the Son to have life in himself;

                          John 5:27 And hath given him authority to execute judgment also, because he is the Son of man.

                          John 5:28 Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice,

                          John 5:29 And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.
                          Originally posted by Interplanner
                          They can't compete with a real writer and grammar scholar
                          Originally posted by Interplanner
                          You're too literal to get it.
                          Originally posted by Interplanner
                          The New Covenant preceded the Old Covenant.

                          Comment


                          • I don't see how any of those verses has answered what the Lord Jesus said at John 5:24. Perhaps you think that this verse proves that even though the Lord Jesus said that the Jews under the law only had to believe He left out "doing good":

                            Originally posted by SaulToPaul View Post
                            John 5:29 And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.
                            However, the Lord Jesus told them exactly what they must do to do the works of God and hence "do good":
                            "Then said they unto him, What shall we do, that we might work the works of God? Jesus answered and said unto them, This is the work of God, that ye believe on him whom he hath sent" (Jn.5:28-29).

                            Therefore, it cannot be denied that those who believed on the Lord Jesus did good.

                            Perhaps you want to argue otherwise?

                            Comment


                            • The issue never was works as a condition of acceptance, rather, of faith toward God as to that particular, due season aspect of His revelation of His gospel of God to said season’s recipient.

                              By the way, my understanding is that the Gospel of God is an umbrella phrase encompassing various aspects, or gospels, of the Gospel of God. My understanding is also that the "Jew" being addressed in Romans 2 and 3 is an actual son of Jacob. This may or may not impact my take as to the following.

                              Anyway, prior to that aspect of the Gospel of God revealed by Him through Paul: the faith of Christ, the issue was, nevertheless; the issue of the individual having faith toward God; such an individual; it was his faith toward God that was counted for righteousness.

                              Under the Law for righteousness, such an individual did not walk under the Law for that righteousness, rather, because of that righteousness which is of faith.

                              Though the Law promised righteousness to whomever could keep the Law; such was not the issue the Believing remnant were focused on - theirs was basically the heart attitude of "if that's what the God of our Fathers wants us to walk in, then that is what I will walk in."

                              Such an individual found what the Apostle Paul relates in Romans 12:2 the Grace believer comes to find who walks by faith under grace in obedience to grace - that God's will as to this is "good, and acceptable, and perfect will of God."

                              Likewise the believing Israelite - his was not fear towards God, rather, reverence. Such an individual found that - Psalms 111:

                              10. The fear of the LORD is the beginning of wisdom: a good understanding have all they that do his commandments: his praise endureth for ever.

                              In other words, because he believed in his heart that God had said through Moses to walk in the Law - Romans 2:

                              29. But he is a Jew, which is one inwardly; and circumcision is that of the heart, in the spirit, and not in the letter; whose praise is not of men, but of God.

                              Note - that is Galatians 6:16's "Israel of God."

                              Here it is again - Romans 9:

                              30. What shall we say then? That the Gentiles, which followed not after righteousness, have attained to righteousness, even the righteousness which is of faith.
                              31. But Israel, which followed after the law of righteousness, hath not attained to the law of righteousness.
                              32. Wherefore? Because they sought it not by faith, but as it were by the works of the law. For they stumbled at that stumblingstone;
                              33. As it is written, Behold, I lay in Sion a stumblingstone and rock of offence: and whosoever believeth on him shall not be ashamed.

                              Had they believed God through Moses; they would have walked under the Law by faith. They would have delighted in walking under the Law by faith. Why? Because God said to! Because Moses said that's what God wants us to do!

                              The righteousness which is of faith already loves the Lord - promise or no promise of righteousness.

                              Look at how that awesome book of the LORD - Psalms - starts out - Psalms 1:

                              1. Blessed is the man that walketh not in the counsel of the ungodly, nor standeth in the way of sinners, nor sitteth in the seat of the scornful.
                              2. But his delight is in the law of the LORD; and in his law doth he meditate day and night.

                              Look at the heart of that great Prophet of that amazing people of God; Israel - Jeremiah 15:

                              16. Thy words were found, and I did eat them; and thy word was unto me the joy and rejoicing of mine heart: for I am called by thy name, O LORD God of hosts.

                              These Believing remnant couldn't get enough of His Law - they just loved the LORD God of Israel!

                              In this, its' no wonder that some of them take insult in their misunderstanding of the faith of Christ.

                              Anyway, after John the Baptist, the issue was; if your righteousness is of faith, if you have believed God through Moses, you’ll believe I am the Christ, for Moses wrote of Me – believe that and I’ll give you eternal life.

                              Because the Law was by Moses; but that grace that He had prophesied – Me – is Me – here I am - believe I am He, and because I Am, I’ll give you eternal life – because I can – for, although, lo, He had been straightened until it be accomplished, He knew He had come to die for sin.

                              Note the implication of Paul's exploration of this issue this side of his aspect of the Gospel of God: the faith of Christ.

                              On their side of the issue; under the Law before the faith of Christ - their righteousness was of faith, not just ours, this said of the faith of Christ.

                              Romans 4:

                              9. Cometh this blessedness then upon the circumcision only, or upon the uncircumcision also? For we say that faith was reckoned to Abraham for righteousness.
                              10. How was it then reckoned? When he was in circumcision, or in uncircumcision? Not in circumcision, but in uncircumcision.
                              11. And he received the sign of circumcision, a seal of the righteousness of the faith which he had yet being uncircumcised: that he might be the father of all them that believe, though they be not circumcised; that righteousness might be imputed unto them also:
                              12. And the father of circumcision to them who are not of the circumcision only, but who also walk in the steps of that faith of our father Abraham, which he had being yet uncircumcised.
                              13. For the promise, that he should be the heir of the world, was not to Abraham, or to his seed, through the law, but through the righteousness of faith.
                              14. For if they which are of the law be heirs, faith is made void, and the promise made of none effect:
                              15. Because the law worketh wrath: for where no law is, there is no transgression.
                              16. Therefore it is of faith, that it might be by grace; to the end the promise might be sure to all the seed; not to that only which is of the law, but to that also which is of the faith of Abraham; who is the father of us all,

                              I highlighted their portion there. Towards affirming what Jerry is talking about.

                              In other words, under both aspects of God's Gospel; whether under the Law for righteousness or whether now, under the faith of Christ for that righteousness, the issue was neverthless, that righteousness which is of faith.

                              Romans 3:

                              30. Seeing it is one God, which shall justify the circumcision [that believing remnant of Israel - the Israel of God] by faith, and uncircumcision [members of the Body of Christ] through faith.
                              Last edited by Danoh; May 30th, 2015, 01:33 AM.

                              Comment


                              • Originally posted by Danoh View Post
                                Anyway, after John the Baptist, the issue was; if your righteousness is of faith, if you have believed God through Moses, you’ll believe I am the Christ, for Moses wrote of Me – believe that and I’ll give you eternal life.
                                From this I can only understand that you believe that the Jews who lived under the law at the time when the Lord Jesus walked the earth were saved by faith alone.

                                Is that right?

                                Comment

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