Chance or Design (Evolution or Creation)

[Stripe]

You assume a perfect genome.

:chuckle:

And this guy calls himself smart.

Dude, your posts are compelling evidence that the human genome is degrading.

 

[6days]

You assume a perfect genome.....

Of course God created a perfect genome. Various verses tell us God and His works are perfect. God's Word tell us... Science helps confirm it.

 

[The Barbarian]

{Barbarian mentions that people don't accept a global flood because there's no evidence for it and scripture doesn't say it's global)

There is overwhelming evidence of the global flood

But you can't show it to us? I think I know why.

told about in God's Word.

Scripture doesn't say it was global.

(We all have the same fossils, same sedimentary layers, same mountains, and valleys etc.)

None of which shows a global flood. What we know is that you don't agree with what the Bible plainly states, and insert a global flood to make scripture acceptable to you.

Lacking evidence for a global flood, you merely claim that you do, but never actually produce it.

But since there is none, and since the Bible never says there was a global flood, that's not very convincing, is it?

On the other hand, we see people building and occupying sites during the time of the supposed flood, There are 10,000 y/o structures with no sign of a flood or flood damage. People in Ukraine were building large wooden houses during the time of the supposed flood. Egyptians were starting to build large stone structures, completely oblivious to any global flood.

In the absence of any scriptural mention of a global flood, and in light of all this evidence, why not just admit the obvious?

 

[The Barbarian]

"Elements comprised of elements"? Huh?

What he means is that every element heavier than lithium was formed in core of stars. This is how we know our solar system was formed as so many other are observed to form, from the shock wave of a supernova, collapsing a cloud of gas, and bringing the elements that make us possible.

 

[The Barbarian]

Im just surprised that a Young Earth Creationist like yourself will even admit that chromosome mutations fixed in populations even exist. So, good for you on that.

Regarding your point. What you do is argue against the same thing you reject.

You assume a perfect genome as evolutionists assume a common ancestor. You offer no more than they do.

But the nested hierarchy of taxa, first noted by Linnaeus, and later confirmed by DNA analyses, is unambiguous evidence for common descent.

 

[JudgeRightly]

What he means is that every element heavier than lithium was formed in core of stars. This is how we know our solar system was formed as so many other are observed to form, from the shock wave of a supernova, collapsing a cloud of gas, and bringing the elements that make us possible.

Wrong.

If you just follow the links I post, you would have come across this page:

http://www.sciencenewsdigital.org/sciencenews/20130309/MobilePagedReplica.action?pm=1&folio=17#pg19

Bottom of the middle column, last full sentence.

Scientists want the heavy elements to originate in stars, but they don't.

 

[JudgeRightly]

{Barbarian mentions that people don't accept a global flood because there's no evidence for it and scripture doesn't say it's global)



But you can't show it to us? I think I know why.



Scripture doesn't say it was global.



None of which shows a global flood. What we know is that you don't agree with what the Bible plainly states, and insert a global flood to make scripture acceptable to you.

Lacking evidence for a global flood, you merely claim that you do, but never actually produce it.

But since there is none, and since the Bible never says there was a global flood, that's not very convincing, is it?

On the other hand, we see people building and occupying sites during the time of the supposed flood, There are 10,000 y/o structures with no sign of a flood or flood damage. People in Ukraine were building large wooden houses during the time of the supposed flood. Egyptians were starting to build large stone structures, completely oblivious to any global flood.

In the absence of any scriptural mention of a global flood, and in light of all this evidence, why not just admit the obvious?

Because your "obvious" claim is incorrect.

* Some of the Evidence for the Global Flood: We maintain this list and provide a radio broadcast by Bob Enyart and his RSR co-host Fred Williams that discusses these scientific discoveries, over at rsr.org/evidence-for-the-global-flood. So, here's a list of some of the scientific observations that corroborate the historical record of the global flood of Noah's day: Evidence for Materialists - An average of a mile deep of sedimentary layers on the continents - Billions of dead things laid down by water in strata all over the Earth - A documented extinction event that destroyed 90% of all the species (multicellular ones) that lived in the oceans - Sufficient water in our two-mile deep oceans to cover the earth (with lower pre-flood mountains) - All major mountain ranges (excepting volcanoes of course) have marine fossils on their summits - Dinosaur soft tissue still exists preserving T. rex red blood cells, blood vessels, and a dozen proteins from a dozen different kinds of dinosaurs and countless other organisms - Anthropological cataloging of hundreds of cultures with an ancient corporate recollection of the flood - Extent of stratigraphic layers of regional and continental scope - As exposed in the Grand Canyon, boundaries between sedimentary strata characteristically show no evidence of what should be millions of years of relentless erosion but are instead flat gaps. - Massive submarine canyons with near vertical walls some as deep as five kilometers - Past geologic catastrophism caused by "off the charts" energy levels (dwarfing modern phenomenon) - Many recent studies contradict Out-of-Africa and the misguided human evolution story and instead support the post-flood Out-of-Babel origin of civilization - DNA studies show a genetic bottleneck highlighting the three "Daughters" of Noah - Only a couple hundred generations were necessary to produce humanity's genetic diversity, as per various studies including in the journal Nature regarding protein-coding variants - The near side of the Moon has been beat up far worse than the far side, being beat up by the debris that was ejected from the fountains of the great deep - Comets, asteroids, and meteoroids are made up of material that's common on earth but very hard to explain their origins out in space, and especially in the outer solar system; so meteoroids are not from the Moon and Mars, they're from Earth, and they're just coming home! - Flood advocates are able to make stunning scientific predictions, contrary to the expectations of those who reject the flood (as at rsr.org/predictions) - etc. Evidence for Christians - Jesus and the New Testament repeatedly affirm the global flood (enough said) with Jesus in Matthew and Luke affirming the building of the ark, and mentioning Noah by name, as does Peter and the author of Hebrews, with Peter in both his epistles reminding us that only "eight people" survived the flood - Every New Testament author refers to at least one of the first eleven chapters of Genesis and Jesus Christ Himself referred to each of the first seven, affirming the literal truth of Genesis - Genesis explicitly describes a global flood (enough said) which drowned all but eight humans, covered the tops of the mountains, required the building of a massive ark to save a breeding pair of every kind of land animal, and which uses the word "all" many times for all the mountains under heaven covered, all flesh died, all living things were destroyed from the earth, etc. - God created a perfect world so the Flood explains dangers that The Fall alone does not explain, such as storms, meteors, asteroids, comets, Earth's radioactivity, earthquakes and volcanoes - While at Babel God confused the languages the consequences of the flood confused the calendars and spoiled the initially perfect 30-day lunar month and 360-day year - Anthropologists have documented hundreds of tribal/ethnic/national recollections of an ancient flood - The Table of Nations in Genesis 10, unique in the annals of the world, documents the origins of the major people groups and even some of the nations of the world as descending from Noah's three sons, Shem, Ham, and Japeth - All of the physical evidence for materialists, just above. - See more (and a section for HPT fans) at rsr.org/evidence.

https://kgov.com/hydroplate-theory-and-walt-brown-on-the-global-flood#evidences

If you want the embedded links (and there are a few of them), go to the link in this post.

 

[k0de]

I myself am a thinking man, appreciate science, have made observations and even practiced science. In fact, I’m practicing it now. I have observed the the sun seems to set several degrees north of west each summer. So, I have begun taking measurements....gathering data.....and formulating ideas about what my observations mean. It’s just for my own personal knowledge, but I could form a hypothesis and go through the scientific process, then publish a paper.

Once that has been done, any other scientist or thinking person can examine my work and make criticisms if they find it. If those criticisms withstand scrutiny, my ideas would be rejected. But if my ideas did in fact withstand scrutiny....then there is more to study and learn.

I am interested in reading your observations. Please provide me with a link to your work when it is complete.

 

[JudgeRightly]

{Barbarian mentions that people don't accept a global flood because there's no evidence for it and scripture doesn't say it's global)



But you can't show it to us? I think I know why.



Scripture doesn't say it was global.



None of which shows a global flood. What we know is that you don't agree with what the Bible plainly states, and insert a global flood to make scripture acceptable to you.

Lacking evidence for a global flood, you merely claim that you do, but never actually produce it.

But since there is none, and since the Bible never says there was a global flood, that's not very convincing, is it?

On the other hand, we see people building and occupying sites during the time of the supposed flood, There are 10,000 y/o structures with no sign of a flood or flood damage. People in Ukraine were building large wooden houses during the time of the supposed flood. Egyptians were starting to build large stone structures, completely oblivious to any global flood.

In the absence of any scriptural mention of a global flood, and in light of all this evidence, why not just admit the obvious?

Barb, when, if it DID happen, do you suppose the flood happened?

 

[6days]

Scripture doesn't say it(flood) was global

If you mean that the Bible does not actually use that precise terminology, you are correct and you maintain your 'intellectual' pride.

However, the Bible plainly says "Never again will all life be destroyed by the waters of a flood; never again will there be a flood to destroy the earth."

In Matthew 24 Jesus compares the coming judgement of ALL people to the judgement of ALL in the flood.

 

[The Barbarian]

* Some of the Evidence for the Global Flood: We maintain this list and provide a radio broadcast by Bob Enyart and his RSR co-host Fred Williams that discusses these scientific discoveries, over at rsr.org/evidence-for-the-global-flood. So, here's a list of some of the scientific observations that corroborate the historical record of the global flood of Noah's day:

- An average of a mile deep of sedimentary layers on the continents In fact, we know these layers were not global in almost all cases. The geologic column exists as a complete series only in a very few locations on Earth. That confirms that the world was never completely flooded at any one time. Further, the existence of desert and forest strata in the middle of what creationists call the "flood deposits" leave you with a very difficult problem. How did a complete desert or forest suddenly appear, complete with appropriate animals and plants, during the "flood year", while they were standing on flood deposits and being buried by flood deposits? I'd like to hear your opinion on that. Billions of dead things laid down by water in strata all over the Earth So we now know there were oceans, lakes, and rivers a very long time ago. But it says nothing about a global flood. A documented extinction event that destroyed 90% of all the species (multicellular ones) that lived in the oceans There have been several of these separated by tens or hundreds of millions of years. One last happened at the end of the cretaceous. Even stranger, suddenly, new fauna appear,not found in earlier times. Again, no reason to invent a magic flood to do that. Sufficient water in our two-mile deep oceans to cover the earth (with lower pre-flood mountains) No. If all the mountains were evenly flattened out over the continents, there wouldn't be enough water to cover the Earth. In fact, there would be more land then, than there is now? Did you even think about this one? All major mountain ranges (excepting volcanoes of course) have marine fossils on their summits In fact, most of them, like the Himalayas, are composed of coastal marine fossils. They formed when India moved north, colliding with Asia,and throwing up mountains, a few centimeters a year. That's still happening, and we can measure the speed. Nothing there supports a global flood, either. Dinosaur soft tissue still exists preserving T. rex red blood cells, blood vessels, and a dozen proteins from a dozen different kinds of dinosaurs and countless other organisms Not tissue, nor cells but some proteins have been recovered. However, it's known that organic compounds can survive for many millions of years. Interestingly, the compounds from dinosaur fossils, have confirmed the prediction that birds evolved from dinosaurs. Would you like to learn about that? Anthropological cataloging of hundreds of cultures with an ancient corporate recollection of the flood So you've discovered that there have been devastating floods in the past. They still happen from time to time. However, there was a flood of Biblical proportions in the Middle East at about the right time to account for the Noah flood. It must have seemed like the end of the world as it covered an entire region. Extent of stratigraphic layers of regional and continental scope You've already presented that. The lack of a continuous geological column apart from a few widely scattered locations clearly rules out a global flood. As exposed in the Grand Canyon, boundaries between sedimentary strata characteristically show no evidence of what should be millions of years of relentless erosion but are instead flat gaps. No,that's wrong. Often strata are laid down in flat layers during some periods, but there are other strata showing uplift and irregular interfaces. They just lied to you about that. Here, you can see both: Massive submarine canyons with near vertical walls some as deep as five kilometers Subduction zones,where oceanic crust is being shoved down into the mantle. This produces deep canyons, but of course has nothing whatever to do with any sort of flooding. Past geologic catastrophism caused by "off the charts" energy levels (dwarfing modern phenomenon) The scablands, for example,caused by the collapse of an ice dam after the last ice age. A huge lake suddenly drained out over a vast area of the Pacific Northwest. But it doesn't support a global flood in any way. Many recent studies contradict Out-of-Africa and the misguided human evolution story and instead support the post-flood Out-of-Babel origin of civilization Well, trot them out, and we'll take a look. I think I know why you don't want to show us. DNA studies show a genetic bottleneck highlighting the three "Daughters" of Noah Nope. The "mitochondrial Eve" (not the real Eve) lived much, much earlier than 6000 years ago, as did Y-Adam. You've been misled about that. Only a couple hundred generations were necessary to produce humanity's genetic diversity, as per various studies including in the journal Nature regarding protein-coding variants Which says nothing whatever about a flood, and the genetic data in that study suggests a human bottleneck around 100,000 years ago. The near side of the Moon has been beat up far worse than the far side, being beat up by the debris that was ejected from the fountains of the great deep When the Soviet probe Luna 3 sent back the first shots of the dark side of the Moon, they showed that it was noticeably more pockmarked by craters than the near side. The nearside crust, by contrast, had more large, shallow basins. https://www.scientificamerican.com/...reveal-why-dark-side-moon-covered-in-craters/ They just lied to you about that, figuring you wouldn't check for yourself. Besides, if huge amounts of material from the Earth had been accelerated to escape velocity, the damage to the moon would be mostly on the face in the direction it was moving, as it would plow into the debris in its orbit. But there's a bigger problem for you. To accelerate many mountains to escape velocity, would take unbelievable amounts of energy, much of which would then be transferred to the atmosphere, which would become hot enough to burn the surface of the earth. Noah would have been cooked. Comets, asteroids, and meteoroids are made up of material that's common on earth No. In fact, we know about the asteroid strike that ended the Cretaceous, because it left a signature layer around the Earth, with elements like Iridium that are quite rare in the Earth's crust. And of course, Jesus never said the flood was global. Nowhere in the Bible does it say so. And remember in the NT, "world" was used to describe the extent of the Roman Empire.

 

[Stripe]

People don't accept a global flood because there's no evidence for it and scripture doesn't say it's global.

As you learned, but your lack of humility means you will always reject: Nope.

The Bible says: "The whole Earth."

And billions of dead things frozen in rock the world over is the plain evidence.

But you can't show it to us? I think I know why.

There are none so blind as who will not see.

Scripture says it was global.

All of which shows a global flood. What we know is that you don't agree with what the Bible plainly states and assert billions of years and a local flood to make scripture acceptable to you.

Lacking evidence for your Darwinism, you merely claim that you have evidence, but you never actually discuss it sensibly.

As there is none and since the Bible says there was a global flood, that's not very convincing, is it?

There are 10,000 y/o structures with no sign of a flood or flood damage.

Which shows that you know nothing of what the flood would entail. No permanent structure would have survived the flood.

People in Ukraine were building large wooden houses during the time of the supposed flood. Egyptians were starting to build large stone structures, completely oblivious to any global flood.

Difficult when those nations did not even exist, not to mention their land.

Do you know nothing of history?

In the absence of any scriptural mention of a global flood, and in light of all this evidence, why not just admit the obvious?

It's obvious that you're a troll.

What he means is that every element heavier than lithium was formed in core of stars.

Sounds unlikely.

This is how we know our solar system was formed as so many other are observed to form, from the shock wave of a supernova, collapsing a cloud of gas, and bringing the elements that make us possible.

"Observed." :chuckle:

Show us that.

But the nested hierarchy of taxa, first noted by Linnaeus, and later confirmed by DNA analyses, is unambiguous evidence for common descent.

As you learned, there is no evidence of common descent. DNA studies should have alerted you to that fact.

In fact, we know these layers were not global in almost all cases.

Luckily, a global layer was not what we asserted.

We really dodged a bullet there by not asserting something you wished we had said. :chuckle:

The geologic column exists as a complete series only in a very few locations on Earth. That confirms that the world was never completely flooded at any one time.

Sounds like very flimsy logic. We didn't find detritus all over the carpark, therefore the river didn't flood over it. Sounds kinda spurious, doesn't it?

Don't you want to learn what really happened?

The existence of desert and forest strata in the middle of what creationists call the "flood deposits" leave you with a very difficult problem. How did a complete desert or forest suddenly appear, complete with appropriate animals and plants, during the "flood year", while they were standing on flood deposits and being buried by flood deposits? I'd like to hear your opinion on that.

Sounds like you've invented layers.

There is the coconino sandstone that we know you like to call a desert, except you forgot that to make rock, three things are needed. Sand alone won't do it. Would you like to learn what the other two are?

Moreover, analysis of the slopes in the cross-bedding show a watery depositional environment. Sounds like you got fooled on that one.

Forest deposits sounds like you're taking a post-flood scene and pretending there is rock above it. We'd like to see that. Feel free to share.

So we now know there were oceans, lakes, and rivers a very long time ago and then a global flood. Just like the Bible says.

If all the mountains were evenly flattened out over the continents, there wouldn't be enough water to cover the Earth. In fact, there would be more land then, than there is now?

The average depth of water on Earth is 2.5km. Did you even think about this one?

What it would take to flood 99 percent of the Earth would be a shallowing of the ocean basins.

I repeat: Did you even think this through at all?

It's known that organic compounds can survive for many millions of years.

Methane is an organic compound. Let's see you keep that intact for any decent account of time given what simple light does to it.

One suspects that you changed the story to "organic compounds" to give you wiggle room when pressed on a subject you want to know nothing about.

Interestingly, the compounds from dinosaur fossils have rejected the prediction that birds evolved from dinosaurs. Would you like to learn about that?

So you've discovered that there had been a devastating flood in the past. It will not happen again. There was a flood of Biblical proportions at about the right time to account for the Noah flood. It was the end of the world, as it covered the entire globe.

Would you like to learn about that?

Subduction zones,where oceanic crust is being shoved down into the mantle. This produces deep canyons, but of course has nothing whatever to do with any sort of flooding.

Subduction is a myth. Didn't you know? There's no viable driving force. That they come with canyons should have been your big clue that there is no relative convergence going on.

You got lied to. A man with some humility, even a tiny amount, would be able to admit his mistake.

Will you?

The scablands, for example,caused by the collapse of an ice dam after the last ice age. A huge lake suddenly drained out over a vast area of the Pacific Northwest. But it doesn't support a global flood in any way.

Sounds like you haven't thought this one through either. How do you think all the water got trapped in the middle of continents?

Trot out your ideas and we'll take a look. I think I know why you don't want to show us.

If huge amounts of material from the Earth had been accelerated to escape velocity, the damage to the moon would be mostly on the face in the direction it was moving, as it would plow into the debris in its orbit.

Guess what happened after that? The movement of mass within the moon made that side heavier than the leeward side. Gravity took over, locking the now-near side in place.

If you'd done even a little thinking, this would have become clear to you.

To accelerate many mountains to escape velocity, would take unbelievable amounts of energy, much of which would then be transferred to the atmosphere, which would become hot enough to burn the surface of the earth. Noah would have been cooked.

They just lied to you about that, figuring you wouldn't check for yourself.

And this is how we know you're the most dishonest poster on TOL, a title you most definitely deserve.

As has been explained to you on numerous occasions: Nope.

Would you like it explained to you again?

No. In fact, we know about the asteroid strike that ended the Cretaceous, because it left a signature layer around the Earth, with elements like Iridium that are quite rare in the Earth's crust.

As you learned, volcanoes are a great source of iridium. Would you like it explained to you again why this source is so much more likely?

And of course, Jesus said the flood was global. The Bible is clear: "Six days." "The whole Earth."

And remember, in the Bible, "world" was used to describe the entire planet.

Would you like that explained to you again?

 

[6days]

And of course, Jesus never said the flood was global.

When Jesus returns, the judgement will be global and Scripture links the judgement of the global flood to the coming global judgement. "Scoffers will come in the last days, walking according to their own lusts, and saying, ‘Where is the promise of His coming?’ … For this they willfully forget that … the world that then existed perished, being flooded with water. But the heavens and the earth which are now preserved by the same word, are reserved for fire until the day of judgment and perdition of ungodly men.”

Jesus often referred to Genesis as real history... In Matthew 24 Jesus refers to a verse in Genesis about the flood “all flesh died that moved on the earth, birds, livestock, beasts, all swarming creatures that swarm on the earth, and all mankind” Gen.7:21

Flood deniers seem to believe God told Noah to spend 100 years building a boat to escape a local flood. Deniers think that birds could not escape a local flood. Flood deniers think that every time we see a rainbow, it is a reminder that God will not send a local flood... Etc.

And remember in the NT, "world" was used to describe the extent of the Roman Empire.

The NT according to Barbarian.....
"For since the creation of the (extent of the Roman Empire) God’s invisible qualities—his eternal power and divine nature—have been clearly seen, being understood from what has been made, so that people are without excuse." Rom.1:20

 

[6days]

As you learned, but your lack of humility means you will always reject: Nope.

The Bible says: "The whole Earth."

And billions of dead things frozen in rock the world over is the plain evidence.

There are none so blind as who will not see.

True... Scripture refers to them as "scoffers".

 

[Stripe]

Massive submarine canyons with near vertical walls some as deep as five kilometers.

Trotting out the 5km vertical cliffs again, huh? :chuckle:

Did you forget how embarrassed you got last time you said this? Did you think nobody would remember?

Show us those.

Prediction: He won't. But he will get angry and lash out.

We know why.

 

[The Barbarian]

Barb, when, if it DID happen, do you suppose the flood happened?

It might be a parable, but most parables are about real things, even if not real instances. And there is evidence for a huge flood in the Middle East that covered settlements, mountains, and formed the Black Sea. That occurred maybe 8,000 years ago or possibly earlier. There certainly humans in the Middle East at that time.

And yes, the mountains of Ararat (not Mt. Ararat, which was so named in post-Biblical times) are nearby.

 

[The Barbarian]

The Bible says: "The whole Earth."

The Bible says "erets" which was used the context of "land", "hereabouts", "this region or nation", but never for the entire globe.

 

[The Barbarian]

Barbarian
And remember in the NT, "world" was used to describe the extent of the Roman Empire.

The NT according to Barbarian.....

Luke 2:1 And it came to pass, that in those days there went out a decree from Caesar Augustus, that the whole world should be enrolled.

"Whole world" in the NT, meaning "extent of the Roman Empire."

Yes. What has trolls befuddled, is the term was used in very imprecise ways and with varying interpretations possible. It becomes a trap for those of you who read scripture with an axe to grind.

 

[ok doser]

... those of you who read scripture with an axe to grind.

That would never include you, um?

 

[JudgeRightly]

maybe 8,000 years ago or possibly earlier.

So, not only are you off by about 5,000 years, you justify it because "there's a rock layer that shows a flood."

Here's the thing, Barb, the ENTIRE GEOLOGIC COLUMN is my evidence for a worldwide flood, not just one layer, it was all laid down within roughly half a year, 3290 BC, +/- 100 years.