Apple7
New member
If the garden is already on earth, then he would already be on earth, and hence, he would NOT need to be cast to it.
-
This is a new section being rolled out to attract people interested in exploring the origins of the universe and the earth from a biblical perspective. Debate is encouraged and opposing viewpoints are welcome to post but certain rules must be followed. 1. No abusive tagging - if abusive tags are found - they will be deleted and disabled by the Admin team 2. No calling the biblical accounts a fable - fairy tale ect. This is a Christian site, so members that participate here must be respectful in their disagreement.
Young Earth or Old?
- Thread starter Jerry Shugart
- Start date
If the garden is already on earth, then he would already be on earth, and hence, he would NOT need to be cast to it.
Apple7
New member
'falling'...?
If he was already upon the earth, as you claim, then why the need to fall to it?
Further, the term used in Eze 28.16, 'mehar', literally means 'mountain'.
Can you please show us where mountains exist in the garden of Eden?
So?
How much time do you think passed between God's command to Adam and Eve to be fruitful and multiply and Adam and Eve doing so?
A day?
A week?
A month?
A year?
10 years?
Longer?
They were mature enough for God to tell them to do so, how long do you think Adam could have held out? I mean, she was the most beautiful woman on earth! Not to mention she was also his wife...
Where did I (or anyone here, for that matter) ever say that it was 24 hours between God's command to multiply and Adam and Eve doing so?
Heaven was on the earth.
Being cast from the garden would be no different than being kicked out of a convenience store.
Do you think that Adam and Eve literally fell to the ground when they sinned? Or could "falling" in this context refer to a figure of speech?
Yes, that's what I said. A mountain.
I recommend you read the passage again, paying closer attention to Ezekiel's description of the garden.
Also, read chapter 31 for a description of the Tree of the Knowledge of Good and Evil, which is described as being cut down, so that its branches fell on the mountains (remember, this tree was in the MIDDLE of the Garden, so for it's branches to fall on the mountains, it must have been HUGE, and the passage describes it as such).
How do you keep a spring of water as large as the one described in the center of the Garden from having its waters split up immediately upon coming out of the ground?
You form a channel (preferably with hills on either side) and have it flow downhill in only one direction.
As I said above, Eden is described as having only ONE entrance/exit, and it's the same place where the river exits the garden, and then splits into four (still large) smaller rivers.
The only way possible for there to be only one entrance and to have river that large split up only after reaching that entrance is for the garden to be nestled in a valley, which would be far better to show off the beauty of the garden which God made.
Or do you think that the garden of eden was flat, so that it's beauty was only visible from up high?
Apple7
New member
Gen 2, onward, proves that creation 'day' 6 is a period of time, not 24 hrs, as detailed by the copious amounts of activity detailed in the text.
Gen 1 is a sequence of events, denoting epochs of time up to the creation of mankind.
Both Adam and Eve needed to be raised from the ground up.
Neither was created as an adult.
And Yahweh Elohim built (way·yi·ḇen) the side which He had taken from the man into a woman, and brought her (way·ḇi·’e·hā) to the man. And the man said, This now at last( hap·pa·‘am) is bone from my bones, and flesh from my flesh. For this shall be called Woman, because this has been taken out of man. (Gen 2.22 – 23)
As the first human clone, three things in these two passages indicate that Eve was created as a child needing to be raised separate from Adam before she was presented back as an age-appropriate mate.
• The Hebrew verb ‘banah’, employed for the creation of Eve, carries with it the meaning to ‘have children’ and ‘obtain children’.
• The Hebrew verb ‘bo’ informs the reader that after Eve was created from Adam, she then had to be brought back to Adam because she was not with Adam. If Eve had been created as a same-age-adult as Adam, then why would Adam have not woken up with Eve by his side to begin with?
• The exclamation ‘hap·pa·‘am’ (at last!) by Adam indicates that he had been waiting for his mate for a very long time. ‘Paam’ carries with it the definition of ‘annual’ and ‘time’, indicating long duration.
Apple7
New member
Incorrect.
Muslims make the very same claim, and, as of yet, I have never seen them demonstrate their assertion via scriptural exegesis.
Perhaps you can be the first to do so?
Apple7
New member
Where is the term 'Eden' in this passage?
God established Earth’s atmosphere and water cycle on Creation 'Day' 2.
Saying it doesn't make it so, Apple.
The context of each word "day" in Genesis 1 indicates a normal day, like any other day.
Again, saying it doesn't make it so.
Nope.
Jesus said that God made Adam AND Eve at "the beginning" of creation.
Day 6 is at the beginning.
"Epoch" 6 is not.
Nope.
Eve was created mature on day 6, just like Adam was.
Not really.
Almost every time the word is used, it means to build, rebuild, establish, cause to continue.
When it's used in reference to children, it's talking about building a family, not the children themselves.
| Strong's h1129 - Lexical: בָּנָה - Transliteration: banah - Part of Speech: Verb - Phonetic Spelling: baw-naw' - Definition: built. - Origin: A primitive root; to build (literally and figuratively). - Usage: (begin to) build(-er), obtain children, make, repair, set (up), X surely. - Translated as (count): to build (36), and build (33), Build (32), and he build (18), shall build (10), do build (9), he build (9), I have build (9), And built (7), And they build (6), he had build (6), and he built (4), build you (4), had build (4), had built (4), Also he build (3), and builders (3), and have build (3), and shall be build (3), and they shall build (3), build it (3), building (3), have build (3), I will build (3), let us build (3), the builders (3), We will build (3), you shall build (3), and build up (2), and builds (2), and I will build (2), and they have build (2), and to build (2), be build (2), built (2), by building (2), did build (2), for building (2), he built (2), I built (2), in building (2), shall be build (2), so build (2), that build (2), that I may build (2), they build (2), to him who builds (2), was build (2), was building (2), will build (2), you and build (2), you build (2), you have build (2), you shall be build (2), am about to build (1), and build on (1), and build you (1), and building (1), And did build (1), and have children (1), and he even build (1), and he shall build (1), and I will build them (1), and in building (1), and let us build up (1), and made (1), and repaired (1), and shall build (1), and shall build up (1), and shall you build (1), And they built (1), and they shall also build (1), and who build (1), and will build (1), and will build them (1), and you shall build (1), are in building (1), are set up (1), build up (1), build us (1), builders (1), builds her (1), did he build (1), do be build (1), do be build again (1), do build them up (1), do build up (1), do that he build (1), do you build (1), do you built (1), does build up (1), For he build (1), For he build up (1), For the builders (1), had been built (1), has build (1), has built her (1), He builds (1), He has build (1), he made (1), he who builds (1), I had build (1), I have surely (1), I should build (1), in common with us in building (1), in order to build (1), In that you build (1), is build (1), it was in building (1), might be build (1), might build (1), Moreover he build (1), of building (1), shall be build up (1), shall build up (1), shall you be build (1), shall you build (1), so he build (1), So he built (1), so they build (1), that builders (1), that he began to build (1), that he build (1), that I may obtain (1), that is to be build (1), that shall be build (1), That we have build (1), that you will build (1), the building (1), Then build (1), Then he build (1), then shall he set up (1), then shall they be build (1), then will I build (1), They build up (1), they had build (1), They have made (1), They that build (1), to be build (1), to be rebuilt (1), To rebuild (1), while it was in building (1), you and you shall be build (1), you have also build (1), you have built (1), you shall be build up (1), your builders (1). |
https://www.blueletterbible.org/lang/lexicon/lexicon.cfm?t=kjv&strongs=h1129
So that's out.
The word also means to be introduced.
Or what, you think that God wouldn't bring Eve to Adam and introduce her to him?
You're reading too much into the text. You should just let it speak for itself.
| Strong's h6471 - Lexical: פָּ֫עַם - Transliteration: paam - Part of Speech: Noun Feminine - Phonetic Spelling: pah'-am - Definition: times. - Origin: Or (feminine) pa;amah {pah-am-aw'}; from pa'am; a stroke, literally or figuratively (in various applications, as follow). - Usage: anvil, corner, foot(-step), going, (hundred-)fold, X now, (this) + once, order, rank, step, + thrice, ((often-)), second, this, two) time(-s), twice, wheel. - Translated as (count): times (48), now (7), once (7), this once (5), time (5), as at other (4), twice (4), at the time (2), corners (2), his feet (2), of my feet (2), ranks (2), this time (2), to me that time me (2), - (1), all (1), are your feet (1), as usual (1), feet (1), for my steps (1), in order (1), my footsteps (1), my goings (1), my steps (1), occurrence (1), of his steps (1), oftentimes (1), out as at other (1), second time (1), stroke (1), the anvil (1), the second time (1), the steps (1), the time (1), the wheels (1), times us (1), two times (1), Your feet (1). |
I'm not seeing anything about it being a long time at all.
Rather, it seems to indicate an instant (not that God created Eve in an instant, but that at that specific instant, he called Eve "bone of my bones and flesh of my flesh."
In other words, it has nothing to do with how long it took for God to create Eve.
Why are you putting day in quotes?
The context indicates a normal day.
Eden isn't mentioned by name until later, in chapter 2.
And I don't disagree that that's when God did so, but that's not what the passage says, nor does it have anything to do with the point I was making.
Apple7
New member
Context.
Please tell us why creation 'Day' 7 was opened - but NEVER closed like the previous 6...
Its because we are still in the 7th 'day'.
Are we going for a new Guinness World Record for the longest 24 hr day?
Apple7
New member
Eden was not created on 'Day' 2...
ו וַיֹּאמֶר אֱלֹהִים, יְהִי רָקִיעַ בְּתוֹךְ הַמָּיִם, וִיהִי מַבְדִּיל, בֵּין מַיִם לָמָיִם.
1.6 Vayomer Elohim yehi rakia betoch hamayim vihi mavdil bein mayim lamayim.
And said God, Let be an expanse in the midst of the waters, and let it (be) dividing between waters (and) the waters.
Strong’s #H7549 “rakia” identifies God’s heavenly expanse. The Mosaic account of creation uses this term interchangeably for “on the face of the expanse of the heavens.” in which birds fly (Genesis 1:20) i.e. the atmosphere, and that farther expanse of sky which God placed “the lights….for signs and seasons” (vv.14, 17, referring apparently to their becoming visible through the cloud cover.
The former receives greater emphasis, particularly during that period before the second day, when the earth cooled sufficiently to permit surface waters, separated from what must still have been a massive cloud-bank above, by the atmospheric expanse (Gen 1:6-8).
Reference:
TWOT
Harris, Archer, Waltke
Page 862
ז וַיַּעַשׂ אֱלֹהִים, אֶת-הָרָקִיעַ, וַיַּבְדֵּל בֵּין הַמַּיִם אֲשֶׁר מִתַּחַת לָרָקִיעַ, וּבֵין הַמַּיִם אֲשֶׁר מֵעַל לָרָקִיעַ; וַיְהִי-כֵן.
1.7 Vaya'as Elohim et-harakia vayavdel bein hamayim asher mitachat larakia uvein hamayim asher me'al larakia vayehi-chen.
And made God the expanse, and He separated between the waters which (were) under the expanse, and the waters which (were) above the expanse, and it was so.
Apple7
New member
Show us...
Right Divider
Body part
Mat 19:4-6 KJV And he answered and said unto them, Have ye not read, that he which made them at the beginning made them male and female, (5) And said, For this cause shall a man leave father and mother, and shall cleave to his wife: and they twain shall be one flesh? (6) Wherefore they are no more twain, but one flesh. What therefore God hath joined together, let not man put asunder.
If you think that "at the beginning" does not refer to creation, give a reasonable alternative.
It was closed, just not in the same way as the first six, because it was the end of the creation week.
Thus the heavens and the earth, and all the host of them, were finished.And on the seventh day God ended His work which He had done, and He rested on the seventh day from all His work which He had done.Then God blessed the seventh day and sanctified it, because in it He rested from all His work which God had created and made. - Genesis 2:1-3 http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Genesis2:1-3&version=NKJV
The "Then" in the above passage is when the seventh day closed.
What does it describe God doing? Blessing the seventh day, "because in it He rested."
Nope.
We're in the here and now, not 7000 years ago.
:blabla:
Eden is a geographical region.
The Garden of Eden (which is sometimes referred to as simply Eden) is a specific location in Eden.
Apple, this passage does not describe the atmosphere and the seas. It describes the waters above (what would become the seas) and the waters below (the subterranean chambers of water which would eventually break forth in the Flood of Noah).
The waters of day 2 are the waters of verse 2.
And the firmament that God made in the midst of those waters is the crust of the earth.
Everything we have talked about can be found explained in detail on http://kgov.com/firmament. I suggest you watch the five minute clip on that page, as it is directly related to this discussion.
I also recommend that you watch the following video, which goes through the Hydroplate Theory, breaking it down and showing how it works. The reason for thus is that the Hydroplate Theory, which is primarily a Flood model, also includes how the earth was formed. Bryan Nickel does a good job animating each step God took when He created the Earth and formed it.
https://youtu.be/4hhE6tzJR_c
(You can find the individual parts of the video on Bryan's YT channel, there are six parts total, plus some other videos that explain other aspects of our universe.)
Jerry Shugart
Well-known member
The "beginning" being referred to is the "creation" of humans. When the LORD began to create humans He made them male and female:
"The Pharisees also came to Him, testing Him, and saying to Him, "Is it lawful for a man to divorce his wife for just any reason?" And He answered and said to them, "Have you not read that He who made them at the beginning 'made them male and female,'" (Mt.19:3-4).
On the other hand, when the LORD created the earth it was created to be inhabited:
"For thus saith the LORD that created the heavens; God himself that formed the earth and made it; he hath established it, he created it not in vain, he formed it to be inhabited" (Isa.45:18).
According to you the following verse describes the way the earth was created:
"And the earth was without form, and void; and darkness was upon the face of the deep" (Gen.1:2).
Unlike you I cannot trick my mind into believing that Genesis 1:2 describes an earth which was created to be inhabited.
Apple7
New member
The literal reading of this passage is as thus…
ο δε αποκριθεις ειπεν ουκ ανεγνωτε οτι ο κτισας απ αρχης αρσεν και θηλυ εποιησεν αυτους
ho de apokritheis eipen ouk anegnōte hoti ho ktisas ap arches arsen kai thēly epoiēsen autous
But answering, He said, ‘Have you not read that The One who created from the beginning, made them male and female’? Mat 19.4
Many modern English translations, like the KJV that you referenced, completely camouflage the original Greek terms – showing absolutely no distinction between them - and then further insert terms (them) which simply do not exist in the original text order.
As the reader can see, two separate creation verbs are employed, ‘ktisas’ (always used of God via creation ex nihilo), and ‘epoiēsen’ (made).
In keeping with the OT reference, to which this passage applies, the original Hebrew verbs would be ‘bara’ (always used of God via creation ex nihilo), and ‘yatsar’ / ‘banah’ (made).
When these terms are applied to the first man and woman, in Genesis, they are likewise applied first in Gen 1, and then in Gen 2, showing that Adam and Eve were NOT created ‘from the beginning’.
Apple7
New member
Incorrect.
Blessing and sanctifying (anything) has absolutely ZERO association with 'closing' that event, as demonstrated by the Hebrew usage of these terms in ANY OT context.