Young Earth or Old?

[Stripe]

Evolution requires an Old Earth, but the evidence for an Old Earth stands by itself- it doesn't depend on "Darwinism".

Uh, it was a joke. :noid:

Did no one get it? :noid:

 

[Apple7]

Observations show that the Earth is old.
A particular view of the Bible claims that the Earth is young.

One can reject the observations in order to stick to a particular view of the Bible. When one does this one rejects normal reality and substitutes a 'spiritual reality' instead. This is a weird situation to be in, but some choose it.

Or one can have a different view of the Bible, and stick to normal reality. This is easier to deal with.

We don't agree on much....but on this topic we can agree...

 

[Jerry Shugart]

No, I think they're two completely different things.

Not that they're separated.

So according to your ideas the LORD laid the foundation of the earth but what sat on that foundation was without form!

 

[JudgeRightly]

So according to your ideas the LORD laid the foundation of the earth but what sat on that foundation was without form!

Answered in my previous post.

You might try responding to my entire post, instead of just snippets, because it seems you only focus on those snippets, instead of what I actually said.

 

[Right Divider]

The earth is old... very old... perhaps even 10,000 years old.

 

[Apple7]

The subject of this thread is not Darwinism. Holding to the idea that the earth is old and not young does not depend on Darwinism. I believe in the old earth but I deny Darwinism.

Agreed.

Bringing-up 'Darwin' in the first place kinda dates a person, as modern science has obliterated his theories regarding human evolution.

 

[Stripe]

Darwinists are morons.

 

[Jerry Shugart]

Bringing-up 'Darwin' in the first place kinda dates a person, as modern science has obliterated his theories regarding human evolution.

Yes, when the young earth people realize that they are losing the argument they revert to trying to change the subject.

 

[JudgeRightly]

Yes, when the young earth people realize that they are losing the argument they revert to trying to change the subject.

Says the one trying to change subject by shifting blame onto your opponent.

Would you please respond to my entire post, seeing as it answered your above question.

 

[Jerry Shugart]

Jerry, have you never seen a skyscraper under construction?

It's without form, and void.

Yes, I have seen one under construction and it was not inhabited by anyone. On the other hand the LORD created the earth to be inhabited:

"For thus saith the LORD that created the heavens; God himself that formed the earth and made it; he hath established it, he created it not in vain, he formed it to be inhabited" (Isa.45:18).​

The LORD created the earth to be inhabited and according to you this is the way that He created it:

"The earth was without form, and void; and darkness was on the face of the deep" (Gen.1:2).​

Do you really think that is the way that the LORD created the earth to be inhabited?

 

[JudgeRightly]

Yes, I have seen one under construction and it was not inhabited by anyone.

OF COURSE NOT!

There's no building to even inhabit yet!

Jerry, what is your IQ? Because surely you can't be this dumb.

God didn't create the earth to be inhabited, HE FORMED IT to be inhabited! Which means to form it, it must first exist!

God created the heavens and the earth (Genesis 1:1) and then formed it to be inhabited (Genesis 1:2-31)

On the other hand the LORD created the earth to be inhabited:

WRONG, JERRY!

God FORMED the earth to be inhabited.

But He can't FORM IT IF IT DOESN'T EXIST!

"For thus saith the LORD that created the heavens; God himself that formed the earth and made it; he hath established it, he created it not in vain, he formed it to be inhabited" (Isa.45:18).​

ONCE AGAIN, I'm having to point out that the only one here saying that God created the world in vain is YOU, Jerry, because YOU, Jerry, are saying that something happened to the world God made perfect, to cause Him to have to make it again.

Thats vanity, Jerry. Useless, pointless, worthless, futile.

You're the one saying God did something that had no point to it.

The LORD created the earth to be inhabited and according to you this is the way that He created it:

JERRY, JERRY, JERRY!

"Create" and "form" are TWO DIFFERENT WORDS in Hebrew.

CREATE is BARA.

FORM is YATSAR.

They have two different meanings!

God CREATED the heavens and the earth, THEN formed the earth.

He didn't create the earth already formed.

Your next verse proves my point!

"The earth was without form, and void; and darkness was on the face of the deep" (Gen.1:2).​

First God created it, and since He hadn't formed it yet, it "was without form, and void."

Do you really think that is the way that the LORD created the earth to be inhabited?

Go read my post again, and this time quote the whole thing when you respond.

Because you're clearly not reading what I wrote, as I've addressed this question now multiple times.

 

[Idolater]

Observations show that the Earth is old.

Particularly radiometric dating observations though, correct? And nothing more than radiometric dating observations?

A particular view of the Bible claims that the Earth is young.

One can reject the observations in order to stick to a particular view of the Bible. When one does this one rejects normal reality and substitutes a 'spiritual reality' instead. This is a weird situation to be in, but some choose it.

Or one can have a different view of the Bible, and stick to normal reality. This is easier to deal with.

It's plenty easy to simply believe the universe was created with 'an appearance of age,' like how Adam and Eve were.

 

[Apple7]

It's plenty easy to simply believe the universe was created with 'an appearance of age,' like how Adam and Eve were.

Adam & Eve were not created with an appearance of age, per the Hebrew.

 

[Jerry Shugart]

God FORMED the earth to be inhabited.

But He can't FORM IT IF IT DOESN'T EXIST!

The LORD formed the earth when He created it:

"For thus saith the LORD that created the heavens; God himself that formed the earth and made it; he hath established it, he created it not in vain, he formed it to be inhabited" (Isa.45:18).​

You cannot even understanding that the word "formed" in this verse cannot be speaking of any thing other than being "created." If the word "formed" means something other than being "formed" then what is said makes no sense. The following translations make that clear:

"For this is what the LORD says— he who created the heavens, he is God; he who fashioned and made the earth, he founded it; he did not create it to be empty, but formed it to be inhabited" (Isa.45:18; NIV).​

"For thus says the LORD, who created the heavens (He is the God who formed the earth and made it, He established it and did not create it a waste place, but formed it to be inhabited)" (Isa.45:18; NASB).​

 

[Idolater]

Adam & Eve were not created with an appearance of age, per the Hebrew.

Well. I'm no authority. It's just that in Genesis they were made already full grown. So I think, why not the universe then.

 

[Apple7]

Well. I'm no authority. It's just that in Genesis they were made already full grown. So I think, why not the universe then.

Actually, not so.

Gen 2 says that Adam was formed from the dust of the ground...how is that fully formed?

Adam was literally made from the ground up...

 

[Idolater]

Actually, not so.

Gen 2 says that Adam was formed from the dust of the ground...how is that fully formed?

Adam was literally made from the ground up...

How many days did it take until he could talk? I thought he talked his first day.

 

[JudgeRightly]

The LORD formed the earth when He created it:

"For thus saith the LORD that created the heavens; God himself that formed the earth and made it; he hath established it, he created it not in vain, he formed it to be inhabited" (Isa.45:18).​

You cannot even understanding that the word "formed" in this verse cannot be speaking of any thing other than being "created." If the word "formed" means something other than being "formed" then what is said makes no sense. The following translations make that clear:

"For this is what the LORD says— he who created the heavens, he is God; he who fashioned and made the earth, he founded it; he did not create it to be empty, but formed it to be inhabited" (Isa.45:18; NIV).​

"For thus says the LORD, who created the heavens (He is the God who formed the earth and made it, He established it and did not create it a waste place, but formed it to be inhabited)" (Isa.45:18; NASB).​

:yawn:

Bara (create) is not asah (make).

Bara (create) is not yatsar (form).

God bara the heavens and the earth.

He then asah the formless and void earth into something to be habitable.

Again, YOU'RE THE ONE saying God created it in vain, because YOU'RE THE ONE who is saying that the world somehow became formless, after God created it perfect.

Yet Genesis 1 says He took 6 days to do it, and that He ceased making on the seventh day.



This is question begging.

You need to show that He did, whereas we simply accept what the Bible says, which is that He created in 6 days, and rested on the seventh.



He did. And?



What makes you think He did?

He took matter that He created, formed it into a ball, and turned some of that matter into water. Then made the crust of the earth, and on the dry land and the seas and He made plants, animals, and in the sky birds and flying creatures, insects. He then took some of the dust of the earth, and sculpted an image, then breathed life itself into that image, and made Man.



The Bible tells us how God made man.

He took the dust from the earth and made an image, then breathed life into it.

Genesis 2:7.

The word used is "yatsar," to form.

So to answer your question, yes, man had no form prior to God creating him. God took dust from the earth, formed into the shape of an image God created, then breathed life into it.

Just like He had been doing for the past 6 days.



The very first verse in Genesis says God CREATED (bara) the heavens and the earth.

It says nothing about forming them.

The second verse in the Bible says that the heavens and the earth that God had just created (bara) was without form and void.

God hadn't formed it into anything yet.

That's literally what it means to be "without form".

God created matter and the universe, but the matter had no form because God hadn't formed it into anything yet.

Jerry, have you ever seen a potter at work? Ever made pottery before?

I have.

You take a lump of wet clay, slam it down in the center of the wheel (so that it sticks well), and then you start turning the wheel. Then you get your hands dirty. You start by smoothing out the clay, trying to get it round, and centering it even further on the wheel.

It takes a lot of effort for a person to mold clay on a wheel, but here's the thing:

If someone is working at a potter's wheel, they aren't doing it because they're forced to, because they have no other option.

Rather, they're doing it because they enjoy the way the clay feels in their hands, they enjoy molding it into a beautiful vase or jar or bowl.

Where do you think that love for molding came from, Jerry?

Could it have been from God Himself? Creation was a new experience for God, as He had never done it before. Maybe He found out that molding things was something He enjoyed doing, and so took the next six days to mold the universe to be inhabited by creatures that He made, and then, to top it all off, He made a creature above all the others, Man, to have dominion over what God had made.



Of course He could. But that's moving the goalposts.

God, if He had wanted to, could have snapped His fingers and created a universe fully formed.

But He didn't do it all at once.

He took the time to do it in six days, because He could do that also, and He enjoyed molding His creation into something He liked.



No, He doesn't. That belongs to man.

Which is why you have no grounds to stand on by claiming that there was a gap between Genesis 1:1 and 1:2, because the only being that existed at that point was God. Therefore, if Creation had become formless and void, instead of God creating it, and it no having form to begin with and then God forming it to be inhabited, it would mean that, no matter how much time had passed, the twinkling of an eye, or billions upon billions of years, either A) God would have had to have been at fault, because He did something wrong in creating the universe so that it ended up formless and void, or B) God couldn't create something that could last that long even though there were no other beings besides Himself, meaning that what God created wasn't perfect to begin with. Either way, neither of those two options reflect Isaiah 45:18.

That's YOUR position, Jerry. Not ours.



:blabla:

:readthis::readthis::readthis:

:yawn:

How many times are you going to repeat yourself, Jerry?

Repeating your position countless times does not make your position any less false.

 

[Jerry Shugart]

God FORMED the earth to be inhabited.

But He can't FORM IT IF IT DOESN'T EXIST!

So you are saying that the earth was created first then it was formed. So according to you the word "created" in the following verse is not speaking of the way the LORD "formed" the earth:

"For this is what the LORD says— he who created the heavens, he is God; he who fashioned and made the earth, he founded it; he did not create it to be empty, but formed it to be inhabited" (Isa.45:18; NIV).​

The word "but" is "used to introduce a phrase or clause contrasting with what has already been mentioned."

So the contrast in the verse is between how the earth was created--"not created to be empty" but instead "created to be inhabited."

It makes no sense whatsoever that the words "created" and "formed" are speaking about two different actions of the LORD. This is how the verse would read if your interpretation of its meaning is correct:

"For this is what the LORD says— he who created the heavens, he is God; he who fashioned and made the earth, he founded it; he did create it to be empty, but later He formed it to be inhabited."​

Unfortunately for you that is not what is said at Isaiah 45:18.

 

[JudgeRightly]

So you are saying that the earth was created first then it was formed.

Yes, Jerry, that's EXACTLY what I'm saying, and it's EXACTLY what the ENTIRETY OF GENESIS 1 SAYS!

So according to you the word "created" in the following verse is not speaking of the way the LORD "formed" the earth:

"For this is what the LORD says— he who created the heavens, he is God; he who fashioned and made the earth, he founded it; he did not create it to be empty, but formed it to be inhabited" (Isa.45:18; NIV).​

Jerry, you're obfuscating.

Again, with your position, you're saying that God DID create the world in vain, and then had to make it again.

Your fundamental premise is completely invalidated by the fact that Isaiah 45:18 says that God did not create it in vain. That means He didn't create the earth fully formed, and then an untold number of years had to remake it because it had been destroyed somehow.

Doing so would have been pointless. Vain.

The word "but" is "used to introduce a phrase or clause contrasting with what has already been mentioned."

More obfuscation.

So the contrast in the verse is between how the earth was created--"not created to be empty" but instead "created to be inhabited."

You're equivocating.

The verse DOES NOT SAY "created to be inhabited" AT ALL.

It says:

For thus says the Lord, Who created the heavens, Who is God, Who formed the earth and made it, Who has established it, Who did not create it in vain, Who formed it to be inhabited: “I am the Lord , and there is no other. - Isaiah 45:18 http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Isaiah45:18&version=NKJV

There are TWO DIFFERENT WORDS USED HERE.

Strong's h1254 - Lexical: בָּרָא - Transliteration: bara' - Part of Speech: Verb - Phonetic Spelling: baw-raw' - Definition: choose. - Origin: A primitive root; (absolutely) to create; (qualified) to cut down (a wood), select, feed (as formative processes). - Usage: choose, create (creator), cut down, dispatch, do, make (fat). Spoiler - Translated as (count): created (5), have created (4), he created (4), choose (3), has created (3), I create (3), and create (2), And created (2), Create (2), that you were created (2), the Creator (2), they are created (2), when they were created (2), and creates (1), and cut down (1), and dispatch (1), and they were created (1), and will create (1), and you shall cut it down (1), for I have created (1), have been done (1), have You made (1), he who created (1), I have created (1), in creating (1), make (1), now your Creator (1), that created (1), that created you (1), to make yourselves fat (1), whom shall be created (1), you were created (1).

AND

Strong's h3335 - Lexical: יָצַר - Transliteration: yatsar - Part of Speech: Verb - Phonetic Spelling: yaw-tsar' - Definition: formed. - Origin: Probably identical with yatsar (through the squeezing into shape); ((compare yatsa')); to mould into a form; especially as a potter; figuratively, to determine (i.e. Form a resolution). - Usage: X earthen, fashion, form, frame, make(-r), potter, purpose. Spoiler - Translated as (count): of the potter (5), the potter (3), And formed (2), and he who formed you (2), have made (2), he formed (2), of a potter (2), that formed (2), that I have formed (2), that the maker (2), the former (2), and fashioned (1), and forms (1), and he who formed (1), and his Maker me (1), and to him who fashioned (1), do formed (1), earthen (1), fashions (1), formed (1), frame (1), has formed (1), have I formed (1), He fashions (1), he had formed (1), he who formed (1), he who forms (1), his Maker (1), I form (1), I formed (1), I have formed (1), I have formed him (1), I have purposed (1), of as the potter (1), of him who framed (1), of in the potter (1), of like a potter (1), our potter (1), potter (1), that formed me (1), that frames (1), that is formed (1), the potters (1), they who make (1), to the potter (1), to the potter it (1), were fashioned (1), you and formed you (1).

Yatsar DOES NOT MEAN "to create".

Bara DOES NOT MEAN "to form/mold"

You keep conflating the two terms.

It makes no sense whatsoever that the words "created" and "formed" are speaking about two different actions of the LORD.

That's because you have rejected what Scripture plainly says.

I have given you the definitions of the two VERY DIFFERENT words used.

I can't make you accept that they mean different things.

That's on you.

This is how the verse would read if your interpretation of its meaning is correct:

"For this is what the LORD says— he who created the heavens, he is God; he who fashioned and made the earth, he founded it; he did create it to be empty, but later He formed it to be inhabited."​

No, it wouldn't Jerry.

Changing "did not" to "did" has nothing to do with the meanings of bara and yatsar.

What you are now doing is INTENTIONALLY misrepresenting my position.

Not only that, you're now adding the word "later" to the verse, where it does not exist.

This is how it reads in the Hebrew.

Unfortunately for you that is not what is said at Isaiah 45:18.

Bearing false witness is a sin, Jerry. You should repent.

Jerry, address this point, please.

With your position, you're saying that God DID create the world in vain, and then had to make it again. Your fundamental premise is completely invalidated by the fact that Isaiah 45:18 says that God did not create it in vain. That means He didn't create the earth fully formed, and then an untold number of years had to remake it because it had been destroyed somehow. Doing so would have been pointless. Vain.