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Is there a Christian cosmology that doesn't include miracles?

JudgeRightly

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No, I was responding to your post here.

No you weren't, at least, you didn't quote me if you were, in which case how am I supposed to know?

You were attempting to change the subject. Start a new thread, or stay on topic.
 

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If my deity is myself at least I should not have difficulty interpreting what I write. How many different christian denominations are there? Do they all agree on one interpretation of the Bible? Why cannot your god give a straight answer? Are works needed for salvation for example? Was Calvin right, you are either chosen or doomed? Those strike me as valid theological questions
"It's a miracle" is a common ploy of Christians. With no hope of figuring it out.

Your creation story is also a miracle, so don't try to dodge that problem.
 

tieman55

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Well, no, it's not taken for granted. It by definition WAS a miracle, because according to the laws of physics, matter and energy cannot be created (nor destroyed), yet God created the physical universe with that law. If you think creation was NOT a miracle, then the onus is on you to present the case that it was not.


What if God din't create the energy, what if He took it from Himself? What if it was a very personal gift, from His own being. That rings much more loving to me, much more like God did with His Son. "If" He took it from Himself that would not violate conservation of energy.
 

JudgeRightly

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What if God din't create the energy, what if He took it from Himself?

Energy is part of the physical universe. It did not exist prior to God creating the universe.

What if it was a very personal gift, from His own being. That rings much more loving to me, much more like God did with His Son. "If" He took it from Himself that would not violate conservation of energy.

God is Spirit. He is not energy.
 

tieman55

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Energy is part of the physical universe. It did not exist prior to God creating the universe.



God is Spirit. He is not energy.

Granted God is a spiritual being, but that is not a full description of God is it?

God is powerful.

Does His power only come after creation?

So, your saying God wasn't always powerful?

Dose your cosmology force God to have no energy before creation?

If God wanted to have power before creation, your saying no, sorry you can't have any???
 

Right Divider

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Granted God is a spiritual being, but that is not a full description of God is it?

God is powerful.

Does His power only come after creation?

So, your saying God wasn't always powerful?

Dose your cosmology force God to have no energy before creation?

If God wanted to have power before creation, your saying no, sorry you can't have any???
You're conflating energy with power.

The power that God has is well beyond any "energy" in the physical universe.
 

tieman55

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You're conflating energy with power.

The power that God has is well beyond any "energy" in the physical universe.

Just change the wording then.

Are you saying God had/has no energy in Himself?

Are you saying you can prohibit Him from either possessing energy or energy being inherit in Him?

Are you saying that "if" God wanted energy He couldn't have had it before the first day of creation of the universe?

Can we agree that unseen energy can and does exist?

Is energy prohibited in the spirit realm?
 

7djengo7

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Because you still need your deity to do the work

Here, you are conceding that God exists--unless, of course, you, by your phrase, "your deity", are not referring to God. And, if you are not referring to God, then to whom (if anyone) or what (if anything) are you referring?

You need God to exist in order to be able to say things about Him; even to be able to say such stupidities as, "God does not exist", and "I don't believe God exists".
 

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Just change the wording then.

Are you saying God had/has no energy in Himself?
God has all power which includes all energy, as energy is something that He created.

Are you saying you can prohibit Him from either possessing energy or energy being inherit in Him?
God is all powerful. Nobody can "prohibit" Him anything.

Are you saying that "if" God wanted energy He couldn't have had it before the first day of creation of the universe?
:dizzy:

Can we agree that unseen energy can and does exist?
First, energy is a physical phenomenon. Second, you cannot see energy, you only see its effects.

Is energy prohibited in the spirit realm?
You ask the silliest questions. Energy is a physical phenomenon.
 

tieman55

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God has all power which includes all energy, as energy is something that He created.


God is all powerful. Nobody can "prohibit" Him anything.


:dizzy:


[FONT=Helvetica, Arial, Verdana, sans-serif]I agree with what you say above . . . but t[/FONT][FONT=Helvetica, Arial, Verdana, sans-serif]hat is not at all what I am hearing from you. [/FONT]

[FONT=Helvetica, Arial, Verdana, sans-serif]So, are you saying, are you Okay with? . . . God "could have" done creation without violating the physical laws. [/FONT]
 

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[FONT=Helvetica, Arial, Verdana, sans-serif]I agree with what you say above . . . but t[/FONT][FONT=Helvetica, Arial, Verdana, sans-serif]hat is not at all what I am hearing from you. [/FONT]
Again, you're making no sense.

[FONT=Helvetica, Arial, Verdana, sans-serif]So, are you saying, are you Okay with? . . . God "could have" done creation without violating the physical laws. [/FONT]
There were no "physical laws" when God created something from nothing.
 
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tieman55

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Again, you're making no sense.


There were no "physical laws" when God created something from nothing.

OK, your unequivocally stating that God "could not" create the physical world without violating the physical laws, understood.

What if God wanted to create in a way that didn't violate physical laws? Could He do that? Yes or no
 

Stripe

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.I would love to see the brilliant minds on this forum tackle, just how God did creation. Was it all miracles?

No.

There aren't many out there who would accuse me of having a brilliant mind, but even I can answer that one. :eek:.

E=MC2 and I think most concede that it probably does,
E is only approximately equal to the rest. See my sig.

take M=E/C2 and put it in the place of some or all of the so called miracles.

Godel.

the term miracle may not be what we think it is. Maybe, just maybe miracle is a figure of speech meaning something like "things that are hard to understand".

A miracle is an act that defies the laws of physics. They're ready to understand. God does them.
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are in the eyes of the beholder. If you gave a cell phone to Moses, he would surely call it a miracle. Heck, the amount of diodes they can now get on the head of a pin, makes me think its a miracle! LOL

Jesus rising from the dead is a miracle regardless of the technology available.

there a Christian cosmology that doesn't include miracles? Maybe there should be? Why would God create laws of physics such as He did, only to immediately break them? Or, at least ask the question, if God wanted to create without violating "His" laws of physics, could He do it?

Kurt Godel.
 
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Lon

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If my deity is myself at least I should not have difficulty interpreting what I write. How many different christian denominations are there? Do they all agree on one interpretation of the Bible? Why cannot your god give a straight answer? Are works needed for salvation for example? Was Calvin right, you are either chosen or doomed? Those strike me as valid theological questions
"It's a miracle" is a common ploy of Christians. With no hope of figuring it out.
You overstate. This isn't the thread for it (trolling) but you aren't even open to intelligent discussion. This is just mindless repetition that every nonthinking 'anti-' has ever produced. Why even come on a Christian forum, Jonah? Are you looking for miraculous conversion? Something that will finally convince you? The Lord Jesus Christ is the focal point where all Christians will stand and all antiChristians will stumble and fall. God declared Him as a place to stand or fall and no other choice, and being a God (the God) He gets to make the rules regardless of what you 'think you need.' You cannot live without Him, yet are such an angry man that you don't care to deal in reality, just your own little facts and you stand behind others (atheists or wrong scientists) to try and hide from what is true, instead "preferring" sight mostly unseen, in a different 'reality' whether it is true or not. Such isn't honest or truthful, Jonah. God exists. Most of us Christians can prove it, and you've never once, not one time, asked me (for instance) why I know. Not once. You don't want to know why, and worse, don't want to know. Why? Because you don't like Him, regardless of doing something about the poor condition of man that you complain about. You should do a one-on-one with someone on TOL to get to the bottom of your cognitive dissonance.

You just seem to be trolling the thread for no apparent reason other than "I don't like this topic" or "I don't believe this thread is valid." On either count, it wasn't addressed to you. Okay, but at least be honest if you are going to participate. ▲This isn't it▲

Start another thread please, preferably in the Religion forum, or perhaps even the ECT.
Nicer than banning him. He does know better but Godly grace is before him, even in simply posting. :up:
 

tieman55

Member
No, I most certainly did NOT say that. Why are you lying?

God created the physical universe WITH physical laws.


Illogical and invalid question.

First calm down, please don't call me a liar. I am in no way trying to win an argument and or justify my thoughts. I am just trying to understand what you and other Christian believe.

Perhaps it is better asked this way.

Are you saying that God created our universe that has physical laws, in a manner that broke some or one of those physical laws? I think that can be a yes or a no ??

A. I think you are saying yes. But am not sure.

B. If your saying "yes" then could God make another universe with say different physical laws, in a manner that didn't violate those physical laws? In other words no miracles.

C. Or is it mandatory for creation to have miracles? Again , I think this can be yes or no, but I am not sure.
 

tieman55

Member
A miracle is an act that defies the laws of physics. . . . . . God does them.
.






Kurt Godel.

First thanks for your thoughtful responses. I agree with your definition of miracles above and don't in any way believe that God is not capable of them.

But I also am very careful not to give God credit or blame (actually that is a figure of speech, I never blame God) for anything that I am not absolutely sure that He had a hand in.

I am not convinced, at this point, that God is forced to violate His laws of physics to perform certain things He has done.

Miracles are not magic because the event actually occurs. I am sure your not saying God is a magician?

Since "miracles are not magic" can't cosmology at least theorize just how the so called miracles are done?

It seems to me that miracles and magic are so very different yet people don't see the difference like they should. To me, it seems like the goal of the cosmologist should be to distinguish the two ideas as to be as far apart as the universe is wide.
 

Right Divider

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First calm down, please don't call me a liar.
  • I'm calm
  • You lied
I am in no way trying to win an argument and or justify my thoughts. I am just trying to understand what you and other Christian believe.

Perhaps it is better asked this way.

Are you saying that God created our universe that has physical laws, in a manner that broke some or one of those physical laws? I think that can be a yes or a no ??
God created the universe and its laws at the same time. The laws are only definitions/descriptions of the behavior of matter and energy.
 
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