Battle Royale VII Specific discussion thread

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bob b

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Flipper,

The interesting thing about gravitational lensing is that determining what "distortions" are taking place in the images one sees requires one to make assumptions about what ought to be seen as well as what mass distributions would cause such alleged distortions. And of course how does one verify the mass distribution of something that can only be detected by the effect it is assumed to be causing in the first place? Perhaps Zakath might wish to substitute his invisible pink unicorns as a replacement for the alleged "dark matter" and its alleged distortions in images that do not look like what we think we should be seeing.

In other words, there is an awful lot of "assuming" going on here and the fact that computers are used in such massive exercises gives new meaning to the old adage "garbage in - garbage out". I always argued that if you allow me to make whatever assumptions I desired I could prove whatever I felt like and could make it look quite impressive in a computer printout or computer generated picture. I certainly prevailed in a lot of managerial discussions over the years by tapping significantly on a large pile of computer printouts in front of me (that in retrospect probably amounted to less value than the paper they were printed on, but regardless it won the day!!!!).
 

Flipper

New member
Well, quite a few of these "alleged distortions" are visible on photographs, so I'm not really sure they count as alleged.

Gravitational lensing was predicted by GR, and our observations have born out the predictions. And because the force of gravity is a predictable one, it is possible to make calculations of mass based on the amount of lensing seen.

I included the Bell labs example because I didn't think you'd like the French study. However, it does show two different methods of identifying the same thing. Coincidence?

Although our argument has now evolved off the thread topic, I should like to also include another piece of evidence. X-ray evidence this time:

The new data, from NASA's Chandra X-ray Observatory, shows a galaxy called NGC 720 is enveloped in a slightly flattened, or ellipsoidal cloud of hot gas that has an orientation different from that of the optical image of the galaxy. Hot gas emits X-rays but cannot be detected in optical surveys.

"The shape and orientation of the hot gas cloud require it to be confined by an egg-shaped dark matter halo," said David Buote of the University of California, Irvine, and lead author of a report on this research in the Sept. 20 issue of The Astrophysical Journal.

http://www.space.com/scienceastronomy/dark_matter_021023.html

Then there's the question of the speed of galaxy rotation, an argument I know you don't accept because I've seen you debate it. Nevertheless, the evidence continues to mount in favor of dark matter.
 

Flipper

New member
You cannot deny that there is at least indirect evidence that can be interpreted as favoring dark matter. Can you?

The IPU so far lacks even that. Nevertheless, our 18 TeV My Little Pony Accelerator/Collider may provide some evidence in favor of this elusive beast.
 

Chris Chrusher

New member
Tsk Tsk...

Tsk Tsk...

Atheists are SO stubborn and narrow-minded. The exact things they accuse Theists of, yet never examine the facts.

The truth... they fear it!

Sigh...
 

Flipper

New member
Chris Crusher:
Atheists are SO stubborn and narrow-minded. The exact things they accuse Theists of, yet never examine the facts.

The truth... they fear it!

Sigh...

I hope you're being sponsored to make unsupported assertions, and that some charity is benefiting from it? Otherwise, your post had no point.
 

heusdens

New member
Re: Tsk Tsk...

Re: Tsk Tsk...

Originally posted by Chris Chrusher
Atheists are SO stubborn and narrow-minded. The exact things they accuse Theists of, yet never examine the facts.

The truth... they fear it!

Sigh...


The truth, which is denied by theists, is investigated and explored by us.
 

August

New member
Zakath wrote:
<
The Moral Knowledge Argument for Atheism (MKAA) – No god's morality is
universally known or accepted by the entire human race (or even the greater majority)>

IMO, this morality question can't be used to prove either God's existence or nonexistence. Enyart knew that the 10 Commandments approach didn't work. The Bible presents the Mosaic Code view of morality, but it also presents another view. Zakath is right - the Bible is inconsistent.
This second view goes like this: In the Garden of Eden, God doesn't condemn Adam and Eve for being naked. He says,"Who told you that you were naked?"
Now look at what Elihu tells Job: "If you have sinned, what do you accomplish against Him? And if your transgressions are multiplied, what do you do to Him? If you are righteous, what do you give to Him; or what does He receive from your hand? Your wickedness concerns a man like yourself, and your righteousness a son of man."
Jesus seems to make the same point when he reminds us that God "makes His sun rise on the evil and on the good, and sends rain on the just and on the unjust", and "The Father judgeth no man."
This doesn't mean that God is indifferent to the harm that we inflict on one another, but that He grants us the free will to do it. It is entirely up to us to establish a moral code that is effective for the existing cultural environment. That puts God out of the morality equation altogether. Now I can't prove that this is the way that it works, but neither Zakath nor Enyart can prove that it isn't. It may not negate their arguments entirely, but it reduces them from "proofs" to opinions.
 

Michael12

BANNED
Banned
Originally posted by bob b
Perhaps Zakath might wish to substitute his invisible pink unicorns as a replacement for the alleged "dark matter" and its alleged distortions in images that do not look like what we think we should be seeing.
This is not true. There is substantial evidence for dark matter. It would be a long, complicated post were I to lay it out here. I will do that if you like, just say so. But for now, try a google search on "supersymmetry" then Search Within Results for "dark matter" (include the quotation marks).
 

Zakath

Resident Atheist
Originally posted by Flipper
The IPU so far lacks even that. Nevertheless, our 18 TeV My Little Pony Accelerator/Collider may provide some evidence in favor of this elusive beast.
:chuckle:
 

RogerB

New member
Re: Tsk Tsk...

Re: Tsk Tsk...

Originally posted by Chris Chrusher
Atheists are SO stubborn and narrow-minded. The exact things they accuse Theists of, yet never examine the facts.

The truth... they fear it!

Sigh...

Their hatred stems from that fear.
 

Zakath

Resident Atheist
Re: Re: Tsk Tsk...

Re: Re: Tsk Tsk...

Originally posted by RogerB
Their hatred stems from that fear.
Which hatred might that be, Roger?

It's ridiculous to think that atheists hate something that they don't even believe exists...

How much energy do you spend hating Vishnu or Odin?
 

RogerB

New member
Re: Re: Re: Tsk Tsk...

Re: Re: Re: Tsk Tsk...

Originally posted by Zakath
Which hatred might that be, Roger?

It's ridiculous to think that atheists hate something that they don't even believe exists...

How much energy do you spend hating Vishnu or Odin?

The hatred they spew here.
 

Freak

New member
Bob stated, incorrectly I might add, in his last post: So tribesmen can adopt minimalist clothing and condition their women to go topless, but missionaries find that women in such cultures readily reassert their modesty.

I have traveled & have lived in the third world (nearly 30 different nations) and have seen that many of these women are not so willing to "reassert their modesty" as you have proposed. I have preached the gospel in many remote areas of Asia, Africa and the Carribean where women run around topless with no concern for modesty.
 

Bob Enyart

Deceased
Staff member
Administrator
Freak, I'm interested in your experience...

Freak, I'm interested in your experience...

Freak, I'd like to know more about your experience regarding this issue. Can you give me a list of a few countries and locales that you are thinking of.

Thanks, -Bob
 

Zakath

Resident Atheist
Vitamin J wrote
I wonder how this debate would have gone if Bob was debating an atheist that actually read the posts?


Pastor Enyart has his own agenda here, which you may or may not know anything about. After having read some of his previous writing, I think his posts would be similar tone and content no matter who was his opponent.

For instance he has, for eight posts now, purposely avoided providing a single concrete example of his alleged "absolute moral standard." I find it dubious that all the "love" he speaks about could provide adequate moral guidance or justification for the good pastor's opinons killing of homosexuals, or his fellow theonomists' beliefs in the reinstitution of human slavery as the will of god, to name a couple of examples.
 

Vitamin J

New member
Originally posted by Zakath
I think his posts would be similar tone and content no matter who was his opponent.
Maybe, maybe not. But what's the point? Shouldn't you respond to his arguments regardlessly?

For instance he has, for eight posts now, purposely avoided providing a single concrete example of his alleged "absolute moral standard." I find it dubious that all the "love" he speaks about could provide adequate moral guidance or justification for the good pastor's opinons killing of homosexuals, or his fellow theonomists' beliefs in the reinstitution of human slavery as the will of god, to name a couple of examples.
So is this above paragraph an admittance that you do not consider the Holocaust wrong but only not preferential to you?

If so, why haven't you just admitted that?

If not, then Bob has indeed demonstrated and given examples of absolute morality.
 

heusdens

New member
Bob's 8-th post

Bob's 8-th post

Bob's 8-th post

Some points in Bob's post worth discussing.

1. Non-life to life evolution

The argument here is that no known mechanism has been found that accounts for the emergence of life or proto-life (proteins, DNA) from non-life. This does not stop Bob however from assuming that total randomness in combination with time, was the only mechanism at hand. And we have to be very surprised then that the "mechanism" of Bob, even after trillion of years, does not produce the result needed. And for that reason, we would have to just assume, that "God did it". Another escape into total absurdism.
What does it proof? Bob prooved that his mechanism can in no way account for the transformation of non-living matter into proto-life and living matter. Since no known mechanism is around that could explain it, he uses a total absurd "mechanism" to show that the mechanism is absurd. And he then wants us to believe that, because we have not yet found a concievable mechanism for this transition, we must therefore: ACCEPT THE ABSURD ("God did it"!

You just proved only one thing, Bob: your way of reasoning is indeed ABSURD!

2. Nazi crimes

This kind of argument digs up frequently in Bob's post. Looks like we talk here with a fervent anti-nazi and anti-fascist, who had himself or his co-believers offered or risked their life in the struggle against nazism and fascism. Bob E: could you show us your historic record of the fight against fascism and nazism? And if not: what are you blaspheming about then?

Fascism and nazism is by the way, a system that still exists; nazi's and fascists by the way encounter no problem whatsoever in that favourite country of yours, USA, based on "freedom of opinion".
The "freedom of opinion" thing thus provides notorious fascist and nazi groups the right to poison people with their criminal thoughts, and which of course will lead to nothing else but the suppression of all forms of freedom of opinion, when they seize power.


The argument he uses here, also involves total nihilism and total absurdism. There would be no human standard (based on atheism) to judge nazism and fascism. Theism and Christianity would thus provide the only standard for fighting fascism and nazism.

However: where were all those Christians and theists then, when it is said that only the Christian absolute human moral can account for succesfully fight fascism and nazism.
Did they go to fight the fascist Franco government, who seized power with the help of Mussonolini and Hitler?
Were all christians jailed after Hitler seized power in Germany in '33, because they fought against nazism and fascism?
History does not provide us any historic records of any christian motivated uprise and fight against nazism and fascism. History DID reveil that so many so-called Christians and christian institutions in reality had no much trouble with fascism. After all, the nazis claimed and proved to be anti-Bolshewists as well as anti-Jews. Murdering some 20 million russians and about 6 million Jews, committed in the name of Christ (Hitler proclaimed he was a Christian), was probably not a bad thing in the minds of many so-called Christians.

History thus shows us, that if the Christian morality is the only and absolute standard to judge these barbarious criminal acts performed by the nazis and other fascists, then this just proofs that the Christians ABSOLUTELY FAILED in fighting such evil acts!

History does show however that labour class political activists, the communist, the socialists, the social-democrats and others, were jailed just shortly after Hitler seized power and were brought to concentration camps where they had to do hard labour and where a lot of them were murdered.

I will reveil here a secret: Atheists DO have a human standard to not only judge fascism and nazism, but also any religion, including Christianity, based on what they DO (and not DO)!
 
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Zakath

Resident Atheist
Originally posted by Vitamin J
Maybe, maybe not. But what's the point? Shouldn't you respond to his arguments regardlessly?
It depends upon a number of factors including the amount of time I have to prepare (which is not unlimited for me since doing this kind of thing is a hobby for me but part of St. Bob the Broadcaster's job...), whether the question is relevant to the point or the debate itself.

So is this above paragraph an admittance that you do not consider the Holocaust wrong but only not preferential to you?If so, why haven't you just admitted that?
My statement has nothing to do with his reference to the Holocaust, you have misinterpreted my comments.

If not, then Bob has indeed demonstrated and given examples of absolute morality.
I asked for source materials, not more examples. He cites his love for his wife and children as the source for absolute morals? Hindus, Muslims, Pagans, and even atheists love their wives and children. That is hardly evidence for attributing a standard to a deity. He is dodging the question by refusing to engage and state exactly where he finds the basis for his alleged moral absolutes. Perhaps his next examples will be drawn from Country-Western music... :chuckle:
 
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