BRXII Battle talk
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Your reasons for doing good things are inconsequential, though it is better to know why you are doing good than to not. The question was: when and where do we pay for the actions that are bad? This is the question you cannot answer and this is what you don't know about what you believe.red77 said:
Yes. It's an answer.red77 said:
logos_x
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stipe said:
Our dealings with the sin problem are as varied within the universal salvation model as it is within that of the eternal torment model. It's amazing to me that "hell" must be viewed as unending because grace ends at death under the eternal torment model, but in the universal salvation model grace does not end forever, sin does end...and that is viewed as if the gospel has been thown out by those that hold the eternal torment model.
Bizzare.
See, now I thought Jesus took care of sin. Once and for all. Period. There is nothing more we mere humans can do about sin. We can't do anything more to atone for our sins. Jesus either did it all, or He didn't. Brings up that pesky problem questions for universalists though. If sin doesn't condemn you to the lake of fire then what does? I mean, if Jesus died that all our sins would be forgiven and never remembered by God, why would God have a lake of fire in the first place? Well, He'll cast death and hell in; He'll cast in the false profit, the beast and all those deceived into accepting his mark; He'll cast in those whos name is not written in the book of life. But not for there sins because Jesus successfully forgave those. So what condemns a soul to the lake of fire?logos_x said:
Correction and remediation of what? Did Jesus forgive sins, never to be remembered by God, or not?logos_x said:
So if your sins are forgiven, why are people still going to hell?logos_x said:
You are too smart and too well read for me to allow you to side-step a question like that. Think about it, pray about, talk to others but I want you to give a solid answer to this question: If Jesus was seccesseful at forgiving sins, what sends somebody to hell?logos_x said:
This is an important question and I need you to answer it directly and honestly.
Originally Posted by CabinetMaker
So if your sins are forgiven, why are people still going to hell?
Why do people go to hell?
Why did Jesus die? and
What price do we pay for sin?
should have simple, one verse answers. That universalism cannot give simple answers to simple questions is not proof that universalism is wrong, but it's a huge clue toward the fact that it is decietful.
So if your sins are forgiven, why are people still going to hell?
Universalism is shown to be easily refuted by so many different and simple lines of questioning. Questions like:logos_x said:
Why do people go to hell?
Why did Jesus die? and
What price do we pay for sin?
should have simple, one verse answers. That universalism cannot give simple answers to simple questions is not proof that universalism is wrong, but it's a huge clue toward the fact that it is decietful.
logos_x
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CabinetMaker said:
I don't view it as sidestepping.
Look...your premise is that sin has been taken away, so why do people still go to hell.
The answer of eternal torment is completely unsatisfactory, because it would have people burning...whether literally or metaphorically...forever in spite of the grace offered because they failed to recieve it before they die. The grace is no longer offered because of death.
That makes death victorious over God's grace.
My premise says that the grace is still offered even though we die....and that at least gives the hope that people are saved from hell even if they arrive there before recieving it.
If you are trying to say that eternal torment explains why people go to Hell....well, good luck with that. The explanation as to why they go to hell is the same in both the eternal torment model and the universal salvation model.
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