BRXII Battle talk

[CabinetMaker]

I don't understand why this debate even continues! When you have a verse like...

"For therefore we both labour and suffer reproach, because we trust in the living God, who is the Saviour of all men, specially of those that believe" (1 Timothy 4:10).

Then what is there left to be said?

Afew more thoughts on the topic... Universalists are not ONLY combatting the mistranslation(s) of the original Greek text, but they are also combatting THOUSANDS OF YEARS, and several generations of this school of thought.

Trying to show someone that there is no hell, is like attempting to convert a muslim or a Hindu... eternal torment is INGRAINED into their skulls.

They are also combating the spoken word of Jesus. Universalisits call Jesus a liar by saying He didn't really mean what He said or He didn't say exactly what He meant.

1 Timothy 4:10 is another favored verse of the UNiversalist because it is so easily twisted to their doctrine. Note that Saviour is capatilized denoting a name. The verse does not say that salvation in given to all men. The verse says the Jesus came as Saviour to all men and those that believe will partake of that salvation. It is offered as encouragement to Timothy to help him in his ministry.

 

[belboy87]

Compare this:

The verse says the Jesus came as Saviour to all men and those that believe will partake of that salvation. It is offered as encouragement to Timothy to help him in his ministry.

to this:

"For therefore we both labour and suffer reproach, because we trust in the living God, who is the Saviour of all men, especially of those that believe"

It does not say "exclusively to those who believe". It simply says... especially...

:juggle:

 

[Kimberlyann]

I don't understand why this debate even continues! When you have a verse like...

"For therefore we both labour and suffer reproach, because we trust in the living God, who is the Saviour of all men, specially of those that believe" (1 Timothy 4:10).

One of my favorite Scriptures. :thumb:

Then what is there left to be said?

How about a Second witness?

"and He Himself is the propitiation for our sins; and not for ours only, but also for those of the whole world." (1John 2:2 NASB)

Afew more thoughts on the topic... Universalists are not ONLY combatting the mistranslation(s) of the original Greek text, but they are also combatting THOUSANDS OF YEARS, and several generations of this school of thought.

Trying to show someone that there is no hell, is like attempting to convert a muslim or a Hindu... eternal torment is INGRAINED into their skulls.

Excellent point.

The prophet Jeremiah cried, "O Lord, my strength and my fortress, My refuge in the day of affliction, The Gentiles shall come to You From the ends of the earth and say, "Surely our fathers have inherited lies, Worthlessness and unprofitable things." ( Jeremiah 16:19)

 

[Kimberlyann]

They are also combating the spoken word of Jesus. Universalisits call Jesus a liar by saying He didn't really mean what He said or He didn't say exactly what He meant.

1 Timothy 4:10 is another favored verse of the UNiversalist because it is so easily twisted to their doctrine. Note that Saviour is capatilized denoting a name. The verse does not say that salvation in given to all men. The verse says the Jesus came as Saviour to all men and those that believe will partake of that salvation. It is offered as encouragement to Timothy to help him in his ministry.

“And he is the propitiation for our sins, and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world.” I John 2:2.

“Behold the Lamb of God which taketh away the sin of the world.” John 1:29.

“And I, if I be lifted up from the earth, will draw all men unto me.” John 12:32. (not might, but WILL)

“We have seen, and do testify, that
the Father sent the Son to be the Savior of the world.” 1 John 4:14.

“Thou has given him power over all flesh, that he should give eternal life to as many as thou has given him.” John 17:2.

“The Father loveth the Son, and hath given all things into his hand.” John 3:35.
(Compare to above verse)

I believe the testimony of John, I believe Jesus is in fact the Savior of the world.

 

[Kimberlyann]

Re your last reply in this debate, Logos_X::BRAVO:

I totally agree. :thumb:

 

[CabinetMaker]

Compare this:



to this:

"For therefore we both labour and suffer reproach, because we trust in the living God, who is the Saviour of all men, especially of those that believe"

It does not say "exclusively to those who believe". It simply says... especially...

:juggle:

Try reading the chapter.

 

[belboy87]

Try reading the chapter.

More :juggle:

 

[Aimiel]

Fear Him Who has the power to cast both body and soul into hell, and display respect for His Holy Word which states that the smoke of the torment of every soul whose name is not written in The Lamb's Book of Life will ascend up forever. To do any less is to call His Son a liar and His Word a lie. God doesn't lie, and Jesus, Himself, said that His Blood was given as a propitiation for many. Those whom He chooses will have eternal life, not every single soul, simply because someone unskilled in The Word of God doesn't understand context and is unable to rightly divide The Word of Truth.

 

[Ecumenicist]

I don't understand why this debate even continues! When you have a verse like...

"For therefore we both labour and suffer reproach, because we trust in the living God, who is the Saviour of all men, specially of those that believe" (1 Timothy 4:10).

Then what is there left to be said?

Afew more thoughts on the topic... Universalists are not ONLY combatting the mistranslation(s) of the original Greek text, but they are also combatting THOUSANDS OF YEARS, and several generations of this school of thought.

Trying to show someone that there is no hell, is like attempting to convert a muslim or a Hindu... eternal torment is INGRAINED into their skulls.

Which is why Universalists generally don't suffer migraine's.

 

[Aimiel]

Which is why Universalists generally don't suffer migraine's.

Why should Satan bother with someone he has in his back pocket?

 

[Nathon Detroit]

Why should Satan bother with someone he has in his back pocket?

Ouch! (good smack!)

 

[logos_x]

I have migraines

 

[logos_x]

I might even be developing one right now.

 

[Zadok]

They are also combating the spoken word of Jesus. Universalisits call Jesus a liar by saying He didn't really mean what He said or He didn't say exactly what He meant.

Come on C.M. Those who believe in the Restitution of all things loudly proclaim what the Master declares regarding aionios kolasis/ kolazo. Do you know what correction is, and the purpose of correction? The Master is speaking of aionios kolasis/ kolazo. What is it? If aionios means without beginning and ending, is this correction that is without ending? If so, it is not correction!

1 Timothy 4:10 is another favored verse of the UNiversalist because it is so easily twisted to their doctrine. Note that Saviour is capatilized denoting a name. The verse does not say that salvation in given to all men. The verse says the Jesus came as Saviour to all men and those that believe will partake of that salvation. It is offered as encouragement to Timothy to help him in his ministry.

Not quite, C.M. We believe in the Living God who is the Saviour of all mankind, especially those who place their trust in Him. Malista does not mean only. Only = monos/ monon. Can you tell us what especially/ malista means?

 

[Zadok]

I have migraines

It must be from all the smacking going on and on and on. Please pass the anti-depressants. Never mind, I am being sucked into a glory hole. :stuck:

 

[Zadok]

Compare this:



to this:

"For therefore we both labour and suffer reproach, because we trust in the living God, who is the Saviour of all men, especially of those that believe"

It does not say "exclusively to those who believe". It simply says... especially...

:juggle:

Belboy87: are you sure it does not say exclusively, or only. Surely your eyes are betraying you. :doh:

 

[CabinetMaker]

Come on C.M. Those who believe in the Restitution of all things loudly proclaim what the Master declares regarding aionios kolasis/ kolazo. Do you know what correction is, and the purpose of correction? The Master is speaking of aionios kolasis/ kolazo. What is it? If aionios means without beginning and ending, is this correction that is without ending? If so, it is not correction!

You fail to understand what sends somebody to the lake in the first place. You insist that it is for correction of sin. It is not. Your sins are forgiven. The lake of fire awaits those who reject Jesus. A crucial difference.

 

[EdCan]

Great Debate!

Great Debate!

Hat's off to Kevin and Stephen...

I'm looking forward to the answer to this...

But here is one thing that really, really bothers me:


Jesus came and died, and His death was sufficient to pay for our sin. He came and took yours and my punishment upon Himself. If the punishment for sin was eternal torment, then He simply could NOT do that...unless He is in torment right now, and will continue to be in torment forever, paying my debt and your debt.

Wow! :thumb:

 

[Zadok]

You fail to understand what sends somebody to the lake in the first place. You insist that it is for correction of sin. It is not. Your sins are forgiven. The lake of fire awaits those who reject Jesus. A crucial difference.

Did I mention correction of sin in the Lake of Theos/ Pur? P.K ran off without disclosing why only the overcomer is not "hurt" by the second death? Can you tell us why, and demonstrate that all believers of the seven golden candlesticks of the Revelation are overcomers.

Our God the Consuming Fire awaits His heritage.

 

[CabinetMaker]

Did I mention correction of sin in the Lake of Theos/ Pur? P.K ran off without disclosing why only the overcomer is not "hurt" by the second death? Can you tell us why, and demonstrate that all believers of the seven golden candlesticks of the Revelation are overcomers.

Our God the Consuming Fire awaits His heritage.

What are the seven candlesticks of the Revelation? I have never heard that term.