BRXII Battle talk
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Nineveh
Merely Christian
Dave Miller said:
Because dave says so. Just like God really didn't say murder or homoism was a sin, because dave says so.
John has a better one: Beloved, do not believe every spirit, but test the spirits, whether they are of God; because many false prophets have gone out into the world.
How? By judging men by the Bible, not the other way 'round.
Balder
New member
For us pagans, the perspective of Dave and Logos X is not exactly ear tickling, since we're still likely bound for a very painful tour of hell on the way to eternal salvation, to purify us of whatever sin we carry, but at least it is morally superior to the traditional views of ET. Buddhists like me prefer to think we're right, that we aren't going to hell just because we aren't Christian, but we agree with Dave and Logos about one thing: Hell, whatever it is, is not permanent, and no one will ever end up sentenced to a fate of eternal torment.
Logos,
I just saw your new avatar tag, "What is an eon" I know the answer to this! (I'm just so excited!!)
An eon is one age-during!!
I just saw your new avatar tag, "What is an eon" I know the answer to this! (I'm just so excited!!)
An eon is one age-during!!
Nineveh
Merely Christian
Balder said:
This should be a wake up call to the unis.
You are going to hell because you are a sinner who will be judged on your own merit by a Perfect, Holy, Just and Righteous God, Who by the way offers you the Righteousness of Christ.
When you make a claim about the God you reject, I'm just about assured the converse is true. There is a gulf between you and the Creator God.
logos_x
New member
CabinetMaker said:
Nope...age-during would be "aionion" according to Young's Literal New Testament.
The English word eon is a direct dirivitive of the Greek word aion. They even sound similar, and could be viewed as a transliteration...the actual Greek word made into an English word.
An eon is an "age"...a word meaning an undertimined time on it's own.
Aionion means "pertaining to an age or ages."
But there is more to the word than just a designation of time...and this is where much is lost in translation and the reson there is so much explaining associated with what the word means. Someone said that english is a perfectly fine language, until you want to say something.
Hebrew and Greek are much more precise languages than English is. So "aionion" has a meaning within it that in English doesn't come across readily...and it is this:
...while aionios carries the idea of time, though not of endlessness, there belongs to it also, more or less, a sense of quality. Its character is ethical rather than mathematical. The deepest significance of the life beyond time lies, not in endlessness, but in the moral quality of the aeon into which the life passes. It is comparatively unimportant whether or not the rich fool, when his soul was required of him (Luke 12:20), entered upon a state that was endless. The principal, the tremendous fact, as Christ unmistakably puts it, was that, in the new aeon, the motives, the aims, the conditions, the successes and awards of time counted for nothing. In time, his barns and their contents were everything; the soul was nothing. In the new life the soul was first and everything, and the barns and storehouses nothing. The bliss of the sanctified does not consist primarily in its endlessness, but in the nobler moral conditions of the new aeon, the years of the holy and eternal God. Duration is a secondary idea. When it enters it enters as an accompaniment and outgrowth of moral conditions.
from Word Studies in the New Testament by Marvin R. Vincent (emphasis added)
from Word Studies in the New Testament by Marvin R. Vincent (emphasis added)
So...duration, whatever it is, isn't the primary meaning of the word in the first place, but a secondary concept that isn't even defined.
There is no single English equivelent to the word, in fact. Our word "eternal" might be a good translation IF the duration was not the primary meaning of "eternal" but viewed as the SOURCE of both the life and punishments. This is what the natural meaning of the Greek is saying.
The closest word to our "eternal" in the Greek is an entirely different word. Aidios. But even this word wasn't always used to denote never-ending or everlasting. It was used in the Bible to denote angels that sinned being reserved in "everlasting" chains until judgement.
I know you meant to make a joke and didn't want a response like this...but, hey, I think it's important that people understand that our western concept of "eternity" isn't what the Bible talks about at all. Our word, "eternity" is an absract concept of beyond time. There are even other threads talking about God being "in time" and not some timeless something where time has no meaning. So...I'm not coming clear out of left field with this.
Nineveh
Merely Christian
CabinetMaker said:
I looked through every single english version on this page. One said "age during". It's almost of if YLT tries to go out of it's way to not say forever and winds up sounding silly. No one talks that way. One would have to believe God is not familliar with the concept of "time unending" as YLT has no rendering of the word "forever" at all. Odd.
logos_x
New member
Nineveh said:
"And these shall go away into the Punishment of the Ages, but the righteous into the Life of the Ages."
(Mat 25:46 Weymouth NT)
And these shall be coming away into chastening eonian, yet the just into life eonian."
(Mat 25:46 Concordant NT)
"And these shall go away into age-abiding correction, but the righteous into age-abiding life."
(Mat 25:46 Rotherham's Emphasized Bible)
And these last will go away 'into aeonian punishment,' but the righteous 'into aeonian life.'"
(Twentieth Century version)
And shall go away these into a cutting-off age-lasting; the and just ones into life age-lasting.
(Emphatic Diaglott)
These versions, along with commentaries from scholars like Vine, Bullinger, Vincent, Farrer and the contributors to Lange's Commentary American Edition, The Parkhurst Lexicon, The Pulpit Commentary, and The Interpreter's Dictionary of the Bible, all make comments and statements throughout their works stating that aionios, of itself, does not mean eternal as we think of eternal today. This coupled with the actual etymology involved make a compelling argument that assigning a meaning of eternal to the word is unwarranted at least most of the time...and it is never proper to translate it as never-ending, everlasting, or eternal because it is completely unnecessary to do so when using "of the age" or eon is really words that the Greek uses anyway, words that mean an undetermined time.
I have also pointed out earlier that the word aionios is not a mathematical word but one of ethics. It isn't a QUANITY, but a QUALITY.
Always translating it the same way as eonion or "of the age" or ages makes it read just as the Greek language does, anyway.
Redfin
New member
Dave Miller said:
My congrats too, Dave! You may be the first on a true list of honor.
I thought earlier that I might receive the "dubious distinction" since PK has expended so much effort in avoiding my one question. But all I've gotten from him is in essence, "I answered that in the BR. If you can't find it, tough!" Oh yeah, he neg-repped me for giving you a thumbs-up a while back.
I hope the "pastor" treats his flock more gently than he does those of us he apparently considers "lost sheep." :think:
Nineveh
Merely Christian
logos_x said:
Do you notice how desperate the attempt is not to say "eternal"? eon: an immeasurably long period of time. No matter what word you want to use instead, we are still winding up with "forever".
Now lets look at some versions that stick with english words we actually use:
NASB: Then they will go away to eternal punishment, but the righteous to eternal life.
NKJV: And these will go away into everlasting punishment, but the righteous into eternal life.
KJV: These will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life.
NIV: Then they will go away to eternal punishment, but the righteous to eternal life.
Message: Then those 'goats' will be herded to their eternal doom, but the 'sheep' to their eternal reward.
Amplified: Then they will go away into eternal punishment, but those who are just and upright and in right standing with God into eternal life.
Same translation for NLT, ESV, CEV, ASV, on and on....
And I like how the the New Life is worded... These will go to the place where they will be punished forever. But those right with God will have life that lasts forever.
Ya know? I have Bullinger's Companion Bible right here, Matt 25:46 says "everlasting punishement". The note says, "...The eternal result..." I'll have to assume you made similar errors with the rest.
"does not mean eternal as we think of eternal today"
This is exactly why I told you before I didn't want to go down this path with you. Nothing really means what it says. Sort of like dave and his "man lying with man" really means temple prostitute.
Right. In your desperation you choose versions that wind up obscuring the meaning with verbage no one uses like "age during" or "aeonian". Not only that but you would have to believe the Greeks didn't have a concept of "forever".
I sat in line age during waiting for my Big Mac! It took aeonian to get my licence renewed!
C'mon, logos.
Why is it you really cling to this stuff? It's apparent it's not Biblical. Nowhere do we get a sneek preview of what happens to folks after they are sent to the lake. To assume there is something more is to add to the Word.
Ecumenicist
New member
Nineveh said:
I'll have to get my passport updated, but I'm always up for an adventure!
Ecumenicist
New member
Even eternal is not "a long period of time." Eternal is outside of time.
logos_x
New member
Nineveh said:
You assume desperation when there is none.
In order for there to be eternal torment men would have to be eternal ON THERE OWN!
As I pointed out in the BR...God stops man from living forever right at the outset.
The ONLY way out of death is by resurrection.
And the LAST enemy to be DESTROYED is death.
There is a resurrection of Christ's people at His return. During that age the unbeliever is still dead.
But there is coming another resurrection to life or to judgement after that age. Those not found in the book of life are subject to the second death.
Death is not YET destroyed.
Do we see these people again? Look at the last chapter of Revelation for the answer.
The Spirit and the Bride still, even then, issue an invitation to come and drink! Who are we inviting? Not those already there, surely.
One wonders why someone would want to cling to eternal torment when God chose a word that does not mean eternal as a matter of mathematics on it's own. Especially when the Bible speaks of the restitution of all things (Acts 3:21) and God being all in all and all things in Christ at the dispensation of the fullness of times (1 Corinthians 15:28; Eph 1:10) and every knee bowing in worship and every tongue giving honor and praise to the Lamb to the glory of the Father.
To believe in eternal torment would be to abandon the hope that always was...For all creation, gazing eagerly as if with outstretched neck, is waiting and longing to see the manifestation of the sons of God. For the Creation fell into subjection to failure and unreality (not of its own choice, but by the will of Him who so subjected it). Yet there was always the hope that at last the Creation itself would also be set free from the thraldom of decay so as to enjoy the liberty that will attend the glory of the children of God. For we know that the whole of Creation is groaning together in the pains of childbirth until this hour.
(Rom 8:19-22 WNT)
Abandon all hope? No. Jesus Christ is the savior of the the world, the savior of all men...especially those that believe. To abandon that for a doctrine that eminated out of Rome, and that not systematically until the sixth century, is something I cannot do. Sorry.
PKevman
New member
Time-Traveling Church Fathers:
Time-Traveling Church Fathers:
Stephen,
Most of what you have said has already been well refuted in other posts
and in the Battle Royale. This however is something that really needs to
be set straight. The early church concurred with the teachings of the apostles
as it relates to eternal punishment, not the other way around as you attempt
to assert. In actuality Origen's doctrines were dismissed as heretical.
They found little acceptance within the Biblically sound members of the
early church. There are many quotes from the early Christians that show
how utterly wrong and deceiving Universalism is.
Consider now you said that the doctrine of eternal torment eminated out
of Rome in the 6th century. Let's examine that a bit:
Time Travel or clear understanding of the Bible?
Polycarp, who was a disciple of John, said this:
"You threaten me with fire that burns for one hour and
then cools, not knowing the judgment to come, nor the perpetual torment
of eternal fire to the ungodly"
I guess he must have time-travelled to 6th century Rome in order to get the
concept of eternal punishment and then go back to his time and say those
words? I think not. He got it right from the Word of God and the teaching
of John himself! Polycarp lived between 70-155 AD, incidentally.
Commenting on a verse in Ephesians, Ignatius had this to say:
"One so defiled will go into unquenchable fire,
and in like manner he who heareth him"Ignatius was born in
AD 50 and was martyred somewhere between 98-117 AD.
I guess Ignatius must have time-travelled to 6th century Rome in order
to pass the heretical doctrine back to the early church?
In The Shepherd of Hermas we find this:"Those which fell into the fire and
were burned, are those who have departed for ever from the living
God; nor does the thought of repentance ever come into their hearts, on
account of their devotion to their lusts and to the crimes which they committed"
This is dated sometime between 100-160. Man I hope they have left somewhere
the secret to time-travel!
Or how about Justin Martyr (100-165)in "Apology"?
He said:
"Plato said to the same effect: that Rhudamanthus and
Minos would punish the wicked men when they came to them; we say that
the same thing will take place; but that the Judge will be Christ, and that their
souls will undergo an eternal punishment; and not as he said, a period of a thousand years. We believe — I would rather say —
we are fully convinced — that each will suffer
punishment by eternal fire, according to the demerit
of his actions; and that an account will be required of everyone, in proportion
to the powers which he received from God, as Christ has declared in these words,
'For unto whomsoever God has given much, of him shall the more be required.'
We Christians (in contrast to the vices attributed by the heathen to their gods)
have been taught that they only will attain to immortality, who lead holy and
virtuous lives, like God; and we believe, that all who live wickedly, and do
not repent, will be punished in eternal fire."
I guess Martyr time-traveled? Or perhaps the doctrine of eternal punishment was
always there DESPITE the attempts of Universalists to rewrite history?
Iranaeus (135-200) talked quite frequently about eternal punishment. Here are
a few quotes from him:
"That eternal fire is prepared for those who
should transgress, both the Lord openly affirmed,
and the other Scriptures prove."
And they had access to the earliest of manuscripts, so this destroys this
popular argument of Universalism! Destroys it.
(As if the Bible wasn't enough)
More from Iranaeus:
"Good things are eternal, and without end in God,
and therefore the loss of them is also eternal and never ending"
"Those who fly from the light of God . . . are
themselves the cause of their inhabiting eternal darkness,
destitute of all good things"
Theophilus of Antioch (who died somewhere between 183-185), said, "Give reverential attention to the prophetic Scriptures,
and they will make your way plainer for escaping the eternal punishments,
and obtaining the eternal prizes of God."
Hey I got it! Maybe they resurrected him in 6th century Rome and THEN sent
him back in time to spread this heretical doctrine of eternal punishment? Or
maybe Universalism is and always has been heresy?
Conclusion:
These are but a small portion of the quotes I could share which
utterly refute the idea that the early church fathers did not
subscribe to the belief in eternal punishment. How could Polycarp,
a disciple of John, had so mixed up the teachings of John, and yet
his take on eternal punishment is in line with Paul, John, and Jesus
Himself?
The Bible is clear on this subject. We have already shared many Bible
verses which clearly teach it throughout this thread and in the Battle Royale.
I pray that more Christians will become clear on it as well!
Time-Traveling Church Fathers:
logos_x said:
Stephen,
Most of what you have said has already been well refuted in other posts
and in the Battle Royale. This however is something that really needs to
be set straight. The early church concurred with the teachings of the apostles
as it relates to eternal punishment, not the other way around as you attempt
to assert. In actuality Origen's doctrines were dismissed as heretical.
They found little acceptance within the Biblically sound members of the
early church. There are many quotes from the early Christians that show
how utterly wrong and deceiving Universalism is.
Consider now you said that the doctrine of eternal torment eminated out
of Rome in the 6th century. Let's examine that a bit:
Time Travel or clear understanding of the Bible?
Polycarp, who was a disciple of John, said this:
"You threaten me with fire that burns for one hour and
then cools, not knowing the judgment to come, nor the perpetual torment
of eternal fire to the ungodly"
I guess he must have time-travelled to 6th century Rome in order to get the
concept of eternal punishment and then go back to his time and say those
words? I think not. He got it right from the Word of God and the teaching
of John himself! Polycarp lived between 70-155 AD, incidentally.
Commenting on a verse in Ephesians, Ignatius had this to say:
"One so defiled will go into unquenchable fire,
and in like manner he who heareth him"Ignatius was born in
AD 50 and was martyred somewhere between 98-117 AD.
I guess Ignatius must have time-travelled to 6th century Rome in order
to pass the heretical doctrine back to the early church?
In The Shepherd of Hermas we find this:"Those which fell into the fire and
were burned, are those who have departed for ever from the living
God; nor does the thought of repentance ever come into their hearts, on
account of their devotion to their lusts and to the crimes which they committed"
This is dated sometime between 100-160. Man I hope they have left somewhere
the secret to time-travel!
Or how about Justin Martyr (100-165)in "Apology"?
He said:
"Plato said to the same effect: that Rhudamanthus and
Minos would punish the wicked men when they came to them; we say that
the same thing will take place; but that the Judge will be Christ, and that their
souls will undergo an eternal punishment; and not as he said, a period of a thousand years. We believe — I would rather say —
we are fully convinced — that each will suffer
punishment by eternal fire, according to the demerit
of his actions; and that an account will be required of everyone, in proportion
to the powers which he received from God, as Christ has declared in these words,
'For unto whomsoever God has given much, of him shall the more be required.'
We Christians (in contrast to the vices attributed by the heathen to their gods)
have been taught that they only will attain to immortality, who lead holy and
virtuous lives, like God; and we believe, that all who live wickedly, and do
not repent, will be punished in eternal fire."
I guess Martyr time-traveled? Or perhaps the doctrine of eternal punishment was
always there DESPITE the attempts of Universalists to rewrite history?
Iranaeus (135-200) talked quite frequently about eternal punishment. Here are
a few quotes from him:
"That eternal fire is prepared for those who
should transgress, both the Lord openly affirmed,
and the other Scriptures prove."
And they had access to the earliest of manuscripts, so this destroys this
popular argument of Universalism! Destroys it.
(As if the Bible wasn't enough)
More from Iranaeus:
"Good things are eternal, and without end in God,
and therefore the loss of them is also eternal and never ending"
"Those who fly from the light of God . . . are
themselves the cause of their inhabiting eternal darkness,
destitute of all good things"
Theophilus of Antioch (who died somewhere between 183-185), said, "Give reverential attention to the prophetic Scriptures,
and they will make your way plainer for escaping the eternal punishments,
and obtaining the eternal prizes of God."
Hey I got it! Maybe they resurrected him in 6th century Rome and THEN sent
him back in time to spread this heretical doctrine of eternal punishment? Or
maybe Universalism is and always has been heresy?
Conclusion:
These are but a small portion of the quotes I could share which
utterly refute the idea that the early church fathers did not
subscribe to the belief in eternal punishment. How could Polycarp,
a disciple of John, had so mixed up the teachings of John, and yet
his take on eternal punishment is in line with Paul, John, and Jesus
Himself?
The Bible is clear on this subject. We have already shared many Bible
verses which clearly teach it throughout this thread and in the Battle Royale.
I pray that more Christians will become clear on it as well!
Last edited:
Nineveh
Merely Christian
logos_x said:
The second death is separation from God, not blinking out of existence.
Our physical bodies. Samuel is a good example of our soul living on after our bodies die.
That's right. 15 comes before 14, I keep forgetting.
At the "rapture" we are given new physical bodies, that would be the perishable putting on the imperishable. That's one of the promises those who believe in Christ are given.
Yes it is. Check it out:
The sea gave up the dead who were in it, and Death and Hades delivered up the dead who were in them. And they were judged, each one according to his works. 14 Then Death and Hades were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death. 15 And anyone not found written in the Book of Life was cast into the lake of fire.
You are reading into God moving on from the time of sin and death. There is not even the hint of the idea "and the lake of fire is quenched and those who experienced the second death are judged again...."
And now we get to the obligatory handful of out of context verses....
It seems, much like dave, you want to offer the things God promises those who love Him to those who do not. I know it makes you feel better, but God is not bound to cater to His enemies.
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