BRXII Battle talk

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Ecumenicist

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My apologies of I've seemed arrogant, its not my intention.

I will ask this, however. If PK feels so insulted and put upon to be asked about how
he would apply eternal torment to his own family, how then must God feel about having
these same assertions made about God's Self?

Why is it that the question asked of Red has to be "either / or?" Why not both?
I trust in God to reconcile all things to God's Self through the atoning sacrifice of
Jesus Christ. How hard is that? Why is it so hard? ITs what scripture says, after
all. Can we not trust scritpure?
 

Nineveh

Merely Christian
Dave Miller said:

It's hard not to be arrogant when you make up sin while ignoring what God calls sin.

"There can be only one." - Highlander

Anyway...in general

I hope folks take note, the one confessed pagan on this thread recently has hope in the idea he really won't face any real punishment when he is judged on his own merit. He liked having his ears tickled.
 

Nineveh

Merely Christian
logos_x said:
So...the argument is that if said punishment isn't "eternal" then it isn't "real".

Rather, it isn't Biblical. Maybe that's why Balder can so readily agree with it.
 

red77

New member
PastorKevin said:
Red, can I ask you a question:what are you trusting in for the salvation of your soul? Is it the belief that God will reconcile everyone unto Himself, or is it the sacrifice of the Lord Jesus Christ for your sins?

Both
 

red77

New member
If you were burning in the Lake of Fire would you be praising God?

That was the point, the verse doesnt say anything about people 'burning' at all but rather giving praise, anyone burning wouldnt be able to even speak let alone anything else....
 

Aimiel

Well-known member
Nineveh said:
I hope folks take note, the one confessed pagan on this thread recently has hope in the idea he really won't face any real punishment when he is judged on his own merit. He liked having his ears tickled.
Seems to be a trend. :think:
 

Balder

New member
Nineveh said:
Rather, it isn't Biblical. Maybe that's why Balder can so readily agree with it.
If I reject a doctrine or a claim, I don't do so because it is Biblical. I can reject certain outrageous Muslim or Zoroastrian doctrines just as easily as I can reject Christian ones.

It is not the source that matters; it's the content of the claim.
 

PKevman

New member
logos_x said:
If a may be so bold...I think I know the gist of what the argument is in this thread and what the major problem has been for those of us that view eternal torment as problematic...
It is that with eternal torment as a cornerstone to "the faith", the Gospel becomes so weak. It remains a powerful way to avoid punishment....but that's about it. At least that is the way it sounds.

Actually Stephen it is the other way around. It is the belief of Universalism that makes the sacrifice of Christ "watered down". It says that a person can live their life any way they like, die and go to hell, but eventually they will be let out and spend eternity in Heaven. Remember that eternity is a long time, so that even if someone spends the supposed "ages" in torment that you claim (although I know Red would strongly disagree that anyone is tormented at any time), it is a drop in the ocean compared to eternity. So people can spit on the sacrifice of God's Son in this life, and according to Universalism they don't have to worry, because one day all will be saved.

The fact is the doctrine of the eternality of the Lake of Fire IS central to the gospel. God knew mankind needed to be saved from this horrible judgment, and so He made the way out Himself. People say it is unfair for God to have given this judgment in the first place, but again remember that this was NEVER God's initial plan for humanity. He created us to love us and have a relationship with us. WE BLEW IT and thus WE deserve the punishment we receive, the same as a person who breaks the law deserves punishment for breaking that law. We are all lawbreakers who have broken God's Law!

The Gospel FAR MORE than just a way to avoid punishment. God has so powerfully changed my life, that this can hardly be said. I went from destroying my life to living for God. I live every day in anticipation of His return. I love Him and build my life around His Word, and He is in my life and I have a relationship with Him. So yes, while I was saved from the punishment I so rightly deserved, there are far more benefits even in this life. Jesus said He had come so that we might have life and have it abundantly, and this has been my experience. I have seen God do some fantastic things in my own life and in the life of others around me. So this is hardly just a way to avoid punishment and nothing more. Please acknowledge that you understand this and consider not using that argument again, because it is bogus my friend!

Logos said:
The second is that it places death in such a supreme and powerful position to undo God's ability to redeem even someones dear old grandmother who hasn't found confidence in Christ before she dies...much less some young drunk on the highway that causes an accident and kills someones teenage daughter...and by the time you get to someone like your obnoxious neighbor that you find way too difficult to love, well...the Gospel seems powerless to do much of anything.

Death is a powerful enemy Stephen. Not more powerful than God however. But people die. We all die. The Gospel doesn't stop us from physically dying. The Gospel guarantees us we won't stay dead. The gospel is hardly powerless "to do much of anything". As I said above the Gospel drastrically changes lives. Jesus Christ changes lives! I have spoken to many dear old grandmothers on their deathbeds (including my own), and I have yet to meet one who was an atheist. Did they make a decision for saving faith? I don't know. Only God knows that. The Bible tells us all be judged and judged fairly based upon their own actions in this life. Christians do not have to fear judgment if we have put on Christ and accept Him as Savior. We can have confidence in that because of the powerful truth found in God's Word!

But to your point about Death. Jesus Christ has already purchased us the victory over Death, and Death will one day be gloriously and finally defeated and cast into the Lake of Fire. That will be a great day. Isn't it ironic that the 2nd death involves Death being thrown into the Lake of Fire?

A third thing is that...in spite of the scriptural evidence that God intends to save all...that is simply an impossibility within the eternal torment plausibility structure.

It is very simple. God desires to save all, but not all will be saved. Yes there is Scriptural evidence that God would love to see all be saved, but the Bible is plain that not all will. And there is no indication whatsover that God desires Satan and the fallen angels to be saved. It is not "an impossibility within the eternal torment plausibility structure"

It is an impossibility within the stubbornness of man and the fact that we have no more chances to be saved after this life structure. (Which can be summed up as the Biblical structure)

To me...the arguments for eternal torment appears to explain away God's ability to save way to much and saps the Savior of virtually all of His ability...especially when the resurrection becomes a very dark idea for most of mankind.

It's too bad that you see it that way my friend. I hope you will someday change your perspective and realize how glorious it is that even one wicked, sinful person can be saved, even though they transgressed the laws of a righteous and Holy God, and deserve to spend eternity apart from God because of this. That God Himself paid the full penalty for their sins on the cross of Calvary. That is in fact wonderful news!
The problem with Universalism is that it underestimates the Holiness of God, and also the wickedness of sin in the sight of a Holy God.

God bless you!
 

Nineveh

Merely Christian
logos_x said:
I wonder why? :think:

Not such a mystery there.

For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine, but according to their own desires, because they have itching ears, they will heap up for themselves teachers; and they will turn their ears away from the truth, and be turned aside to fables.
 

red77

New member
PastorKevin said:
Actually Stephen it is the other way around. It is the belief of Universalism that makes the sacrifice of Christ "watered down". It says that a person can live their life any way they like, die and go to hell, but eventually they will be let out and spend eternity in Heaven. Remember that eternity is a long time, so that even if someone spends the supposed "ages" in torment that you claim (although I know Red would strongly disagree that anyone is tormented at any time), it is a drop in the ocean compared to eternity. So people can spit on the sacrifice of God's Son in this life, and according to Universalism they don't have to worry, because one day all will be saved.

pastor - I know this post was in response to Stephen and I'm sure he will answer you himself, but i do feel the need to respond to what you've said myself, any pain or suffering is not to be taken lightly - the same with transgression, universal salvation does not make light of sin -It just sees a purpose behind any punishment that is meted out for thet consequences of sin, if you ask a burns victim what they must have felt the pain was like I doubt any would tell you it was a drop in the ocean, both pain and sin are anything but to be taken lightly.......

The fact is the doctrine of the eternality of the Lake of Fire IS central to the gospel. God knew mankind needed to be saved from this horrible judgment, and so He made the way out Himself. People say it is unfair for God to have given this judgment in the first place, but again remember that this was NEVER God's initial plan for humanity. He created us to love us and have a relationship with us. WE BLEW IT and thus WE deserve the punishment we receive, the same as a person who breaks the law deserves punishment for breaking that law. We are all lawbreakers who have broken God's Law!

The obvious answer here is why did God create the human race in the first place if it was going to be such a let down? God can do as he wills obviously but he must have known that mankind wasnt going to be able to hit the mark, you often claim that universalism infinges upon man's free will but who asks to be born in the first place? Nobody has a choice in the matter......I believe that God knew from the outset that Man was going to mess up and loved the world so much that he still went ahead and created it and has the power to restore the whole of his creation

The Gospel FAR MORE than just a way to avoid punishment. God has so powerfully changed my life, that this can hardly be said. I went from destroying my life to living for God. I live every day in anticipation of His return. I love Him and build my life around His Word, and He is in my life and I have a relationship with Him. So yes, while I was saved from the punishment I so rightly deserved, there are far more benefits even in this life. Jesus said He had come so that we might have life and have it abundantly, and this has been my experience. I have seen God do some fantastic things in my own life and in the life of others around me. So this is hardly just a way to avoid punishment and nothing more. Please acknowledge that you understand this and consider not using that argument again, because it is bogus my friend!

I dont deny the life changing effects that your faith has brought you and this is the positive side of belief that is good to hear, if more emphasis was placed on the positive side of Christianity I genuinely feel people would be more open to hearing the message with an open mind, ET is a very abstract concept to most people because it starts off with unimaginable fear and pain that is incomprehensible - especially with A God that is supposed to be loving, regardless of our stances on this - shouting hellfire and torment doesnt seem to be doing a very good job of bringing the average person any closer to finding faith for the most part....


Death is a powerful enemy Stephen. Not more powerful than God however. But people die. We all die. The Gospel doesn't stop us from physically dying. The Gospel guarantees us we won't stay dead. The gospel is hardly powerless "to do much of anything". As I said above the Gospel drastrically changes lives. Jesus Christ changes lives! I have spoken to many dear old grandmothers on their deathbeds (including my own), and I have yet to meet one who was an atheist. Did they make a decision for saving faith? I don't know. Only God knows that. The Bible tells us all be judged and judged fairly based upon their own actions in this life. Christians do not have to fear judgment if we have put on Christ and accept Him as Savior. We can have confidence in that because of the powerful truth found in God's Word!

And unfortunately one of the more distasteful sides of ET is that there comes a point where you have no more hope to offer someone, the most you can say to someone who's lost a relative or a loved one is that they might have been saved at the end of their physical life - if not its game over, its actually one of the last things that caused me to rid myself of the shackles of the doctrine, if someone asked me out point blank that if their beloved had died without knowing God then I knew I couldnt tell them they were in or awaiting a place of torment, I really saw how hopeless and despairing the message was - and it didnt make sense that God would want me to take someones hope away like that and I think for good reason


But to your point about Death. Jesus Christ has already purchased us the victory over Death, and Death will one day be gloriously and finally defeated and cast into the Lake of Fire. That will be a great day. Isn't it ironic that the 2nd death involves Death being thrown into the Lake of Fire?

i believe that once death is abolished it will be a great day indeed

It is very simple. God desires to save all, but not all will be saved. Yes there is Scriptural evidence that God would love to see all be saved, but the Bible is plain that not all will. And there is no indication whatsover that God desires Satan and the fallen angels to be saved. It is not "an impossibility within the eternal torment plausibility structure"

It is an impossibility within the stubbornness of man and the fact that we have no more chances to be saved after this life structure. (Which can be summed up as the Biblical structure)

but again - how do you reconcile God working all things out within the counsel of his will if God's own will is not accomplished in what he desires? Was man's free will not already taken into account? The Bible says that God will put all things into subjection and be all in all, and yes - left to man by his own devices salvation for the most part would be an impossibility - hence Jesus's answer to the disciples regarding this very same issue - "With man this is impossible, with God all kinds of things are possible" Your main argument against universal salvation seems to rest on the free will of man but this is already accounted for, I'm sorry to keep pushing the point but it really is still simple logic, for ET to be a reality God cannot accomplish his will or desire - and i certainly cant work out how you can believe that he puts all things in subjection to himself..........


It's too bad that you see it that way my friend. I hope you will someday change your perspective and realize how glorious it is that even one wicked, sinful person can be saved, even though they transgressed the laws of a righteous and Holy God, and deserve to spend eternity apart from God because of this. That God Himself paid the full penalty for their sins on the cross of Calvary. That is in fact wonderful news!
The problem with Universalism is that it underestimates the Holiness of God, and also the wickedness of sin in the sight of a Holy God.

God bless you!

But uinversalism does none of this, it doesnt make light of sin unless you have to believe that unending suffering is the only way to requite God's holiness and justice, what ET does is say that God's love is dominated by his wrath - instead of seeing his anger as an actual manifestation of his love which can restore all in God's own time.....
 

logos_x

New member
Nineveh said:
Not such a mystery there.

For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine, but according to their own desires, because they have itching ears, they will heap up for themselves teachers; and they will turn their ears away from the truth, and be turned aside to fables.

Given that the first systematic theology in history was Origin's in the 3rd century, and nobody refuted it systematically until the 6th century...and a very prominant part of that theology was universal reconciliation...it could be that eternal torment is one of the doctrines that did this.

Fables of eternal torment just might be what is being refered to here. Have you considered that?
 

Ecumenicist

New member
Balder said:
If I reject a doctrine or a claim, I don't do so because it is Biblical. I can reject certain outrageous Muslim or Zoroastrian doctrines just as easily as I can reject Christian ones.

It is not the source that matters; it's the content of the claim.

For Nin's benefit, this is biblical, in that it meets the test of the fruits of the Spirit.
Without this test, there is no morality attached to what people can and will do in the
name of God.
 

logos_x

New member
Red's response to Kevin would echo my own.

The idea that eternal torment must be in place in order for the Gospel to not be watered down is in reality a straw man. By now it should be clear that this isn't the case, and the continued assertion that Jesus being successful in saving the world waters down the gospel, frankly, mystifies me...given the arguments that have been presented.

What is it about eternal torment that lends more power to the work of Christ?
I don't see anything yet that says it does.
 

Ecumenicist

New member
logos_x said:
Red's response to Kevin would echo my own.

The idea that eternal torment must be in place in order for the Gospel to not be watered down is in reality a straw man. By now it should be clear that this isn't the case, and the continued assertion that Jesus being successful in saving the world waters down the gospel, frankly, mystifies me...given the arguments that have been presented.

What is it about eternal torment that lends more power to the work of Christ?
I don't see anything yet that says it does.

It doesn't water down Christ. It waters down the salvation experience for those
who believe they have escaped eternal torment.

perhaps PK and others aren't defending ET so much as defending their own
salvation experience. And I guess from that perspective, I can understand the
vehement objections to any doctrine that threatens a core experience.
 

logos_x

New member
Dave Miller said:
It doesn't water down Christ. It waters down the salvation experience for those
who believe they have escaped eternal torment.

perhaps PK and others aren't defending ET so much as defending their own
salvation experience. And I guess from that perspective, I can understand the
vehement objections to any doctrine that threatens a core experience.

:think: Both Calvinism and Arminianism have God saving us from eternal misery...Universal Reconciliation has us being saved from sin and evil.

That would probably be the main cause of this line of reasoning that has been dispayed by these arguments. Apparently...the very definition of salvation itself is the core issue.
 
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