BRXII Battle talk

[PKevman]

Your good news might be that all people are God's children no matter what. God's good news is that wicked, evil, sinful man can be adopted into the family of God and be called His children despite their sin and because they have trusted in the provision of God found in His Son Jesus Christ.

God's good news is that even though man is wicked and sinful and headed to eternity apart from Him in the Lake of Fire, God made a way out and anyone who will trust in the way out provided by God can be saved from the judgment that they otherwise will face if they die in their sins and fail to trust in Christ.

Your good news is phony news that is based upon your own feely-good gospel and not on the Word of God. If all were God's children already, why did Christ have to die?

Say did you happen to read Battle Royale XII, Dave? (Note this is the 2nd time I have asked you that question).

 

[PKevman]

Dave Vs. the Bible:The Bible wins!

Dave Vs. the Bible:The Bible wins!

Word of Dave Miller:

Your admonition that no one is God's child until they are born again doesn't fit with scripture.

Word of God:
John 3:3 Jesus answered and said to him, “Most assuredly, I say to you, unless one is born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God.”

 

[logos_x]

I think the variance here regards God BEING the father, and our KNOWING HIM as the Father.

God is the Father of all, but many don't know Him in that way...in fact, this is what really separates our faith in Christ from other religions...

Much confusion is removed when we understand the Scripture in Hebrews 7:25. "Wherefore He is able also to save them to the uttermost that come unto God by Him, seeing He is ever liveth to make intercession for them." This word "intercession" is the Greek word, "entugchano." It means, "to meet with in order to converse, have dealings with, to intervene," literally, TO INTERPOSE HIMSELF TO BE OUR HELPER. Jesus Christ is not pleading with the Father to influence the Father to be favorable to us. HE IS THE VERY EXPRESSION OF GOD'S FAVOR TO MANKIND." "To wit, that God was IN CHRIST reconciling the world UNTO HIMSELF."(2 Cor. 5:19) JESUS CHRIST IS GOD'S EXPRESSION of His phenomenal love and compassion for all mankind.

Yet many do not know this...

 

[Balder]

In my book, God was a merciful grandparent, even for a child who murdered his other grandchild.

And then there was Seth. And Enoch. And Noah, with his wife and children. Then there's that
whole Abraham thing. And Moses, and the Red Sea.

I wholeheartedly applaud the universalist movement within Christianity, but when you point to Noah as an example of God's mercy, you have to say something as well about the billions of animal and human lives God apparently purposefully wiped out in his wrath.

 

[logos_x]

Balder,

"Now our Lord Jesus Christ Himself, and God, even our Father, WHICH HATH LOVED US, and hath given us everlasting consolation and good hope through grace; comfort your hearts, and establish you in every good word and work."(2 Thess. 2:16,17)​

This Scripture is a true rendering depicting the love of our heavenly Father. God's love is intended to draw mightily to the heart of mankind.

If Christians in the world today are to escape religious suffocation, the need to pray that the veil be removed from our eyes is paramount so we might see there is nothing in God our Father, which would make us hesitate to run and bow at His feet.

It is our own blindness and distorted images of Him, which do injustice to God and cause us to be "enemies in our mind." (See Colossians 1:21)

When we center ourselves on Jesus Christ...even our distorted image of the wrathful conduct of God changes. We discover... with joy... that even His wrath is motivated by His immutable love. It was because of the full weight of the wrath of God that He gave His only begotten Son.

Someone said "His wrath is simply His love, red hot!"

As a believer in universal salvation I'm permitted to view it this way, but I'm not too sure a believer in eternal torment can.

Insofar as the human lives are concerned.. within the universal reconciliation veiw...God raises them up, does what is necessary to make them fit for fellowship with God and mankind, and in the end the whole ordeal of evil gives way to Christ's complete victory.

The general reaction is that this is just too good to be true. That makes it a tough sell.

 

[Aimiel]

Word of Dave Miller:

Your admonition that no one is God's child until they are born again doesn't fit with scripture.

Word of God:John 3:3 Jesus answered and said to him, “Most assuredly, I say to you, unless one is born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God.”

Amen, and amen. If you don't have The Spirit of Christ, you're none of His.

 

[red77]

Red I have already answered all of these questions with you many times over in various threads and debates. You honestly refuse to acknowledge it, so I'm done answering. Honestly it is quite irritating. Here is the final answer and you can take it or leave it:

God desires all men to be saved, but all ment won't be saved. We know this because Jesus said the way to life is very narrow and only a few find it. We know Jesus said that at the day of judgment, He will separate His own people from the ones who aren't His and that those who aren't His are cast into the Lake of Fire for all eternity.

If what you say is true the verse should say God desires all men to be saved and forces them to be so.

The Lord says with God all things are possible and that is true. We have never denied that. But it still does not ever say that all will be saved. In fact it says directly the opposite and extremely clearly at that. You refuse to see it and you make the excuse that you have heard all of this before. Fine then, why in the world do you try and FORCE your doggone views on everyone else? It is clear that most of the people on this board don't accept Universalism. You won't get me to accept Universalism no matter how hard you try, so please just give it up.

And here is a news flash: I believe pretty strongly in most aspects of the Open View, so if you really want to understand that, why not participate in some of the many fine threads on that subject here and you will understand why I believe like I do. I don't believe God violates the free will of man and that He allows us to choose to reject Him or accept Him. The Bible bears this out for us again and again.

I also do not believe that everyone will choose to accept God. I don't see it anywhere in the Scriptures, and your repeated attempts to get me to agree has not worked, because I don't believe it is there. I believe the verses Universalism uses to try and prove its case are taken way out of context and don't mean what Universalism says they mean. I have explained that to you time and time again, Red. I have explained it in the Battle Royale, and I have explained it to Stephen. If anyone could have convinced me that Universalism was Biblical it might have been Stephen because I honestly like the guy, but I don't believe it is Biblical and I honestly don't think I ever will. Hey if I'm wrong everyone is saved anyway, so why keep at it?

I believe very firmly that the Scriptures teach irrefutably that many will not in fact accept God's provision of salvation found in the Lord Jesus Christ, and that those who don't will spend eternity in the Lake of Fire. I don't believe the Bible teaches that all will be saved and I don't believe that people can repent and be saved after they die. I find that nowhere in the Bible. It is not there because it is not true. There is no repentence after death, nor is there a single verse indicating someone repents after death.

The most wicked aspect of Universalism to me is the belief that Satan and the fallen angels will repent and be saved. That is a wicked and unBiblical doctrine. Nothing anyone has said or ever will say can show me anything otherwise.

I am always willing to study and search Scriptures and if anyone can show me a verse clearly where it says Satan and fallen angels repent and get saved I would be glad to admit I was wrong. But no such verse exists. To continue to insist it does is just ludicrous.

Many churches and religions have abandoned the teaching of the eternal punishment as it is found in the Bible, but I will not be such a Pastor. I am not out to win popularity contests but to preach the Word and warn people that they need to be saved or they will have a day of reckoning with the Lord, and it won't be pretty. It is not popular these days to preach and teach the fires of hell, but the Bible is plain on the subject and if the Bible is plain on the subject then we have to teach it.

There are many other important doctrines in the Word of God that we must never abandon as well: such as the deity of the Lord Jesus Christ, the Trinity-Father, Son, and Holy Spirit, salvation is by grace through faith alone plus nothing else, salvation is through Jesus Christ and Him alone, He is the only way to the Father, etc....
I will always be there to stand for Biblical truth and will be willing to defend against untruth.

God bless and have a good night.

pastor - how then can God put all things in subjection to him and be all in all? i agree that this is goin around in circles but its just simple logic that dictates that you (or anyone else) who ascribe to ET believe that God's will is limited, he cannot achieve his will because of the free will of man in your argument - but if God has worked all things within the counsel of his will then man's free will is already taken into account.....I dont believe that anyone is forced into accepting God, when every knee bows and every tongue confesses i believe it to be done willingly - not coerced, you must also think the same if you dont believe that God violates mans free will......?
There really is no way around the fact that the doctrine of ET stops God from achieving his set aims, God can reconcile some of the world - but all of the world is a set impossibility from the outset in your doctrine, all kinds of things are possible for God but reconciling his own creation? No - thats too much for God to manage.......whether he wills it or not......
and a good day to you pastor!

 

[red77]

Balder,

"Now our Lord Jesus Christ Himself, and God, even our Father, WHICH HATH LOVED US, and hath given us everlasting consolation and good hope through grace; comfort your hearts, and establish you in every good word and work."(2 Thess. 2:16,17)​

This Scripture is a true rendering depicting the love of our heavenly Father. God's love is intended to draw mightily to the heart of mankind.

If Christians in the world today are to escape religious suffocation, the need to pray that the veil be removed from our eyes is paramount so we might see there is nothing in God our Father, which would make us hesitate to run and bow at His feet.

It is our own blindness and distorted images of Him, which do injustice to God and cause us to be "enemies in our mind." (See Colossians 1:21)

When we center ourselves on Jesus Christ...even our distorted image of the wrathful conduct of God changes. We discover... with joy... that even His wrath is motivated by His immutable love. It was because of the full weight of the wrath of God that He gave His only begotten Son.

Someone said "His wrath is simply His love, red hot!"

As a believer in universal salvation I'm permitted to view it this way, but I'm not too sure a believer in eternal torment can.

Insofar as the human lives are concerned.. within the universal reconciliation veiw...God raises them up, does what is necessary to make them fit for fellowship with God and mankind, and in the end the whole ordeal of evil gives way to Christ's complete victory.

The general reaction is that this is just too good to be true. That makes it a tough sell.

:up:

one major difference between ET and universal salvation seems to be the view of God's love, on the one hand God's love is overcome by wrath and on the other hand God's wrath is actually part of his love,
As God is described as love in the Bible and never soley as wrath then one of these interpretations makes sense.......

 

[Ecumenicist]

I wholeheartedly applaud the universalist movement within Christianity, but when you point to Noah as an example of God's mercy, you have to say something as well about the billions of animal and human lives God apparently purposefully wiped out in his wrath.

Hi Balder,

I'm in absolute agreement with Logos.

This is where faith and hope comes in, if it is to have any role at all. Faith that
God has a beneficient purpose in all things, even in death. And hope that God has a
beneficient purpose for all things, even beyond death.

 

[Ecumenicist]

PK,

Do you refuse to officiate funerals for the unsaved? Or do you comfort the remaining faithful
relatives by saying their loved one is burning in eternal torment? Do you stop their tears
by assuring them that they will be able to stand with their god and bask in the smoke and agonized
cries of torment of their loved ones?


You never have answered my question about your own children, and yes it does apply, most
assuredly it applies. As sure as Adam and Eve were created by God, as sure as God had
mercy on even Cain and Saul, it applies.

And yes I read the BR.

 

[Ecumenicist]

There's a prevailing paranoia in the Church that without the ability to threaten people, there would
be no reason to "sell" Christ at all.

The truth is, more people are driven away from Christ by the doctrine of eternal torment, than are
drawn to Christ. This is the absolute truth. Anyone who works with people outside the stuffy
confines of the Church know this. The truth is revealed by the fruit it bears, and the fruit of
ET theology is people dismissing God and Christ, and the church. Can I get a witness from
the ex Christian, athiests, Buddhists, and pagans out there?

The benefit for accepting Christ here and now is becoming part of the Kingdom here and now. Its
that simple. The question that the Faithful ask is, why wait until death to experience
eternal life? Its available here and now, and in accepting Christ, death is conquered, here and now.

There's alot of suffering here and now that can be avoided, alot of joy that can be experienced, here
and now, in accepting Christ.

After all, both John and Jesus both said "the Kingdom is at hand!" Here and now, within our grasp.

The doctrine of Eternal Life in Jesus Christ is not threatened by Universalism, its fulfilled.

 

[Balder]

The truth is, more people are driven away from Christ by the doctrine of eternal torment, than are drawn to Christ. This is the absolute truth. Anyone who works with people outside the stuffy confines of the Church know this. The truth is revealed by the fruit it bears, and the fruit of
ET theology is people dismissing God and Christ, and the church. Can I get a witness from
the ex Christian, athiests, Buddhists, and pagans out there?

Yes, sir. That's true for me. ET is a monstrous doctrine, and should be regarded as an insult to God by those in the faith.

 

[Stripe]

I'm guessing Red responded to my last message trying again to force me to live up to his standards. Someone tell him to talk it through with PastorKevin as PK is capable of helping the poor unfortunate soul. I clearly am not. I'll promote PK as the authority on all matters relating to BRXII.

Red is on my ignore list for a very good reason and I'd prefer he didn't mention my username again if he wishes to remain ignored.

 

[Aimiel]

Can I get a witness from the ex Christian, athiests, Buddhists, and pagans out there?

If they are who you want to hear the truth from, how much of Jesus' Word have you actually believed? You're looking to the wrong source. God's Word is Truth, let everyone else be a liar, but God be True. God's Word describes torment as lasting forever, but since you don't take God at His Word, you don't 'buy' that. You need to buy the truth, and not sell it.

 

[Lighthouse]

actually LH, why dont you just put me on ignore?

Beacuse you're too much fun.

 

[red77]

I'm guessing Red responded to my last message trying again to force me to live up to his standards. Someone tell him to talk it through with PastorKevin as PK is capable of helping the poor unfortunate soul. I clearly am not. I'll promote PK as the authority on all matters relating to BRXII.

Red is on my ignore list for a very good reason and I'd prefer he didn't mention my username again if he wishes to remain ignored.

You know - for someone who wasnt going to be responding to me anymore you sure have been sending a lot of posts in my general direction, call me cynical but i think you read my last post to you and had no answer to it, if I am actually on your ignore list then thats well and good with me

 

[red77]

Beacuse you're too much fun.

make your mind up.....

 

[red77]

There's a prevailing paranoia in the Church that without the ability to threaten people, there would
be no reason to "sell" Christ at all.

The truth is, more people are driven away from Christ by the doctrine of eternal torment, than are
drawn to Christ. This is the absolute truth. Anyone who works with people outside the stuffy
confines of the Church know this. The truth is revealed by the fruit it bears, and the fruit of
ET theology is people dismissing God and Christ, and the church. Can I get a witness from
the ex Christian, athiests, Buddhists, and pagans out there?

The benefit for accepting Christ here and now is becoming part of the Kingdom here and now. Its
that simple. The question that the Faithful ask is, why wait until death to experience
eternal life? Its available here and now, and in accepting Christ, death is conquered, here and now.

There's alot of suffering here and now that can be avoided, alot of joy that can be experienced, here
and now, in accepting Christ.

After all, both John and Jesus both said "the Kingdom is at hand!" Here and now, within our grasp.

The doctrine of Eternal Life in Jesus Christ is not threatened by Universalism, its fulfilled.

:thumb:

 

[Lighthouse]

Right.....I mean there's no symbolism in Revelation is there? It doesnt sound as though you're particularly certain about anything....

Do we stamp "idiot," or "liar," on your forehead? SInce you are either one or the other. I have never made anysuch statement, in my entire life.

It was a simple question, merely asking you why you think your position is more just than ET, [/quote
Now that sounds like a better question. It's the same reason I beleive the death penalty is more just than imprisonment, or torture, in the here and now. And you already believe that torture is not just, or you wouldn't be preaching Universalism, correct? So do I really need to answer the question, or do you get it?

You dont know that they wont be sorry or repentant, this is just your own supposition

They might be sorry they were wrong, but if they're not sorry for what they did now, why would they be when they are confronted with the truth? Human history has shown us that such is not usually the case. Even in the Bible, unbeleivers who were confronted with undeniable proof became even more hard-hearted, rather than repentant.



[pquote]Er......all I said was that Thomas wasnt told to depart, he wasnt kicked out of the discipleship for needing proof so my point still stands,

What point? I never said Thomas was told to depart, did I?

Does it sound like they're "crying out"? It sounds more like praise to me!

"Idiot" it is then.

 

[Lighthouse]

I think you may loose your credibility talking to a brother as such.
Just because he may not believe in an everlasting hell does this make him any less?
He is still your brother in Christ.

red77 is not a brother in Christ.