BRXII Battle talk

[PKevman]

Pastor Kevin -- Really? Were the Jews the authors of the Bible? Yes. ---Were the Jews the authors of the Old Testament? Yes! Do we find a description in the Old Testament of eternal punishment? YES!
Psalm 140:10
10 Let burning coals fall upon them; Let them be cast into the fire, Into deep pits, that they rise not up again.


I find it interesting that pastor Kevin uses psalms 140:10 actually it's 140:11 ( a book of prayers ) as proof of eternal punishment.....Whats up with this????



Now what it really says
May he rain burning coals upon them; May he cast them into the depths never to rise.
this is nothing more than a prayer.

stop all the smoke and mirrors already
I find it a waste of time when people use scripture intentionally to decieve

Why did you ignore the other Old Testament verses I quoted after that one, just out of curiosity? Speaking of smoke and mirrors........ :chuckle:

 

[CabinetMaker]

At least what I am sharing IS the gospel.

You have not pushed, you have simply asserted and disregarded or disparaged.

I have backed up every statement I've made with scripture. I have also corrected numerous errors on your part with scripture. Your disregard for scripture indicts you without any help from me. And it was Jesus Who originated that characterization. Do you disagree with Him on that too?

The context is this discussion and the points being raised therein.

Redfin,
You leave me speachless. You cling to a made-up gospel and claim it truth. People push you to support your views and you call them swine. You quote scripture so far out of context as to render it uselss. Finally, you say it ok because you are using it in the context of this discussion so it is okay to make it say what you want.

Try this again. Can you provide one scripture, IN CONTEXT, that supports that salvation is availabe to those who have died? By death, I mean the final death that each of face and citezens of earth. The people raised by Jessus and Peter did ultimatly die. Is there one verse that says you will have a chance to accept Jesus after you are dead?

This is an important point, for everybody. We all have a tendancy to read things into scripture that are not there. It makes them more complete for us. For instance, I tend to believe that people who have never ever heard the gospel are not autmatically doomed to the lake of fire. I believe this because I understand God to be a just God and that He will deal with people accroding to what they know. The fact of the matter is, I don't know. The scripture is utterly silent on this issue. The only things that we can know are contained in the scripture. If it is not there, we don't know.

So look closely at what you are saying. Look for a scripture, a single scripture, that explicitly says salvation is available to you after you die. If you cannot find it then you must ask yourself, is what I believe what the Bible says, or what I want the Bible to say.

 

[red77]

Any body who accepts Jesus as their Lord ans Saviour is exempt. That simple.

And if they dont these other people will deserve to suffer horrendous agony......that simple right...?

True. By Jesus's own words, true. For narrow is the gate and few will find it.

which translates to eternal agony.......how?

Again, anybody who accepts Jesus is exempt. And I do believe God is Holy and Just. I do not claim to understand why He has set things up with the lake of fire. I thank God that He has taken the time to explain things to me and that He has provided for my future. Please note, it is not a future based on avoiding hell, it is a future based on being with a living Jesus.

Which all people will do at a point in time, you do believe that all people will confess right? Or do you think its forced? i'm guessing you must do before these folk are carted off to a literal fiery lake, tell me CM - do you read revelation literally......?

We are not God. We frequently try to be much nicer than God. We totally forget that God, by His own admission, is also a God of Wrath, a jealous God, a vengful God. Never forget, in the OT the punishment for many things was stoning. Stoning was a slow and painful death. This slow and painful death was required by God. Why do you over-look or just flat out ignore that about God? Remember, You claim that God is so loving He would never torture anybody, ever, for any reason. And yet you have the OT....

I dont see many people trying to be 'nicer than God' on this site......! And you can hardly equate ANY pain to the likes of eternal agonising burning with no point at all, twice in the Bible God is described as 'love' - never as 'wrath' or 'torment' or 'vengeance', why do you overlook that, do you base your belief in ET from the OT?

The good news is that Jesus died for your sins and raised you to everlasting life with Him if you will believe through faith alone that He is your saviour.

i think he died for everyone's sins, to be testified to in due time - you think that only those like you who have found the narrow path in this one short existence seem to be worthy of being sparedd excruciating torment - fair?

F: in case it wasnt clear already all those who believe in eternal hell believe that other people will suffer agony.....[/quote} :yawn: I'll say it one more time since you seem not to understand well. Anybody who accepts by faith alone in this life alone that Jesus is the saviour will not go to the lake of fire. That is pretty good news!

I dont even know how you can use the 'yawn' icon in this topic, it must be soooooooo boring for you....let me ask you again - do you believe that the majority of all people are going to suffer horrendous torment of which you're not going to be part of?
why is that good news.....?

Whats more sickening, a God who says what He will do and does what He says or a God made in our own image?

Personnaly, I was made in Gods image. God has told me who and what He is and what He expects of me and what He will do. Praise God for that TRUTH.

your ticket's paid for right? Its still the same thing.... YOU'RE NOT GOING TO SUFFER UNIMAGINABLE AGONY -OTHER PEOPLE WILL! whats most sickening is the heartless and despisable attitudes of those who once pulled from the 'fire' would gladly see others thrown in it....yet you'd be crying out for mercy and compassion if suddenly it was going to be your own skin that was going to burn - right? that is a main reason why this doctrine is so sickening and which you havent really addressed at all, and I think you know that.......

 

[PKevman]

ALSO - cruel, barbarous, brutal, degenerate, depraved, evil, harsh, hateful, heartless, malevolent, merciless, monstrous, ruthless, sadistic and vicious

Only if you stubbornly refuse to repent and accept the sacrifice that Jesus Christ made for your sins. Only if you shake your fist at God and decide you don't need Him or want Him in your life, in which case your issue is with Him and Him alone.

All of those words you used are descriptions of what Christ went through at Calvary. God allowed HIS OWN Son to go through all of those things so that you and I don't have to. God didn't create the Lake of Fire for people originally. He created it for the angels who sinned. When man sinned he consigned himself to the same judgment as the fallen angels. God WANTED to make a way out for men, so they wouldn't have to go there to pay the penalty His righteous judgment requires. So God HIMSELF came to this earth and paid that penalty in the form of Jesus Christ the God-Man.

 

[PKevman]

I guess my message of calling for people to repent and humble themselves before God is really a bad one? :think:

 

[red77]

Redfin,
You leave me speachless. You cling to a made-up gospel and claim it truth. People push you to support your views and you call them swine. You quote scripture so far out of context as to render it uselss. Finally, you say it ok because you are using it in the context of this discussion so it is okay to make it say what you want.

Try this again. Can you provide one scripture, IN CONTEXT, that supports that salvation is availabe to those who have died? By death, I mean the final death that each of face and citezens of earth. The people raised by Jessus and Peter did ultimatly die. Is there one verse that says you will have a chance to accept Jesus after you are dead?

This is an important point, for everybody. We all have a tendancy to read things into scripture that are not there. It makes them more complete for us. For instance, I tend to believe that people who have never ever heard the gospel are not autmatically doomed to the lake of fire. I believe this because I understand God to be a just God and that He will deal with people accroding to what they know. The fact of the matter is, I don't know. The scripture is utterly silent on this issue. The only things that we can know are contained in the scripture. If it is not there, we don't know.

So look closely at what you are saying. Look for a scripture, a single scripture, that explicitly says salvation is available to you after you die. If you cannot find it then you must ask yourself, is what I believe what the Bible says, or what I want the Bible to say.

Yes.......what about the age of accountability? Scriptures are pretty silent on that as well, when is it that someone is deemed on average to be 'worthy' of being eternally damned.....?

Also - if God is the saviour of all men especially of those who believe, that Jesus died as a ransom for all to be testified to in due time - then just those verses alone say that those in the 'lake of fire' will be reconciled and purged 'as by fire' in themselves.....dont forget - doesnt it say that they "shall have their PART in the lake of fire"......? :think:
Even if you think the 'lake' is literal (though I still cant get over how anyone can....)

Tell me......would you want everyone to be reconciled to be God? its what God wants by his word after all........

 

[red77]

I guess my message of calling for people to repent and humble themselves before God is really a bad one? :think:

Nope -not at all, why would you think that.......?

 

[Redfin]

So can YOU supply a Bible verse that clearly shows someone repenting after death?

Yes, more than one, but your qualifier “clearly” gives you the wiggle room to disregard them. Good debate technique, but not necessarily conducive to arriving at truth.

But if you are able, please supply a Bible verse that clearly proves the immutability of one’s salvational status after death, which is true to the meaning of the words in the original language. Do so, and I will for my part concede this whole issue.

Or that shows Satan and the fallen angels being redeemed? Or that clearly shows those who have been cast into the Lake of Fire getting out? Or that clearly shows those who do not have their names written in the Book of Life getting their names written back INTO the Book of Life?

Christian Universalism is no more subject to that sort of proof-texting than is any other Biblical doctrine. Again, demanding verses that say specific things which you've pre-determined are not there is another tried-and-true debate technique, but is it really something to which you desire to resort here?

Or that shows that Jesus was not right when He said the fires of torment would not ever be quenched?

Of course He was right. However, the fact that the fires are never quenched in no way requires that people must remain in them. The smoke of their torment can also rise forever without them necessarily continuing to be toasted.

The challenge is not to "get people to suspend their belief system". The challenge is to get people to abandon Biblical truth for things that cannot be shown to exist anywhere in God's Holy Word.

In fact, Christian Universalism exists in God’s Word both explicitly and in principle.

The challenge is to motivate people to openly examine the possibility of a Biblical truth previously unconsidered.

Due to mass indoctrination though, for many if not most Christians this is incredibly difficult. It takes a willingness to temporarily say, “Okay, let’s assume for a moment that it is true,” and then explore the numerous ramifications, in order to really “get it.”

 

[PKevman]

Nope -not at all, why would you think that.......?

Because that is what the Gospel is about. If people will repent and humble themselves before a Holy God He will forgive their sins, adopt them as His children and become their Heavenly Father. Then they don't have to worry about hell because their sin problem has been paid for.

 

[belboy87]

my opinion

PastorKevin's position - biblical and one of the biggest obstacles to faith in the bible being divinely authored. he fully embraces the despicable teaching of the bible on the subject.

Logos_X position - biblically based wishful grasping at hemeneutical straws. he unsuccessfully trys to explain why the supposedly misunderstood teaching of scriptures is
not as despicable as it appears.

Very fascinating stance BigBang... I assume you're an atheist. If I believed in Eternal Torment, I believe that I would quickly join your ranks.

I guess my message of calling for people to repent and humble themselves before God is really a bad one? :think:

Nope, just when you tell them that if they don't, they're gonna be burned... for eternity.

 

[solarb]

yet more smoke an mirrors

yet more smoke an mirrors

Why did you ignore the other Old Testament verses I quoted after that one, just out of curiosity? Speaking of smoke and mirrors........ :chuckle:

The question is
Why do you use a book of "prayers" as proof of eternal punishment?

The other question is
Why should i waste my time at all with you and your cut and paste scripture.
Using scripture out of context is nothing more than decietful.

 

[CabinetMaker]

And if they dont these other people will deserve to suffer horrendous agony......that simple right...?

If I were to offer you a million dollars if you would work for me, and you said no, whos fault would it be that you are still poor.

Which all people will do at a point in time, you do believe that all people will confess right? Or do you think its forced? i'm guessing you must do before these folk are carted off to a literal fiery lake, tell me CM - do you read revelation literally......?

Confess, yes. Profess, no. Do you understand the difference?

I dont see many people trying to be 'nicer than God' on this site......! And you can hardly equate ANY pain to the likes of eternal agonising burning with no point at all, twice in the Bible God is described as 'love' - never as 'wrath' or 'torment' or 'vengeance', why do you overlook that, do you base your belief in ET from the OT?

I base my believ=fe on ET on what Jesus said in Mathew. He used words like forever and ever, second death, get thee from me.

i think he died for everyone's sins, to be testified to in due time - you think that only those like you who have found the narrow path in this one short existence seem to be worthy of being sparedd excruciating torment - fair?

I have saiod it before and say it again (and again and again and again) Jesus's sacrifice for sin was 100% sucesful. The curtain in the temple was torn into indicating that the barrier of sin that had always seperated God from Man was forever torn down. It is not your sins that will send you to the lake of fire. It is your faith, or lack their of, tht will send a person to the lake of fire.

I dont even know how you can use the 'yawn' icon in this topic, it must be soooooooo boring for you....let me ask you again - do you believe that the majority of all people are going to suffer horrendous torment of which you're not going to be part of?
why is that good news.....?

I yawn because no matter how much anybody tries to show you what the scripture says, truely says, you always comeback to a contrived point. You have yet to answer on direct question I have posed to you. A direct answer would include, maybe, a scripture reference with your explination about what it means and why considering the context of the whole chapter the verse was taken from.

your ticket's paid for right? Its still the same thing.... YOU'RE NOT GOING TO SUFFER UNIMAGINABLE AGONY -OTHER PEOPLE WILL! whats most sickening is the heartless and despisable attitudes of those who once pulled from the 'fire' would gladly see others thrown in it....yet you'd be crying out for mercy and compassion if suddenly it was going to be your own skin that was going to burn - right? that is a main reason why this doctrine is so sickening and which you havent really addressed at all, and I think you know that.......

You asume much not supported by any statement I have ever made. The fact that I accept that people will go to the lake of fire IN NO WAY means I would gladly see them go. PART of the reason for sharing the Gospel is so that they can avoid it. A much more important reason for sharing the Gospel is knowing Jesus as a personal saviour. My fate has NOTHING to do with the doctrine of the lake of fire. Nothing at all. I have no influance over it at all. God has said what will be. Let me repeat that; God has declared what WILL be.

 

[PKevman]

The question is
Why do you use a book of "prayers" as proof of eternal punishment?

I used some verses from the O.T. in answer to something that Stephen said in the debate. That was one of the ones I used.

The other question is
Why should i waste my time at all with you and your cut and paste scripture.

Nobody is forcing you to do anything. It's a website, so cutting and pasting is a necessity.

Using scripture out of context is nothing more than decietful.

I agree completely. Why does Universalism do it so much then?

 

[solarb]

all smoke and no flame

all smoke and no flame

I used some verses from the O.T. in answer to something that Stephen said in the debate. That was one of the ones I used.
-----------------------------------Everyone follow please
Here is what you were talking about, it seems that something your refering to is a description in the old Testament of eternal punishment. YES

Really? Were the Jews the authors of the Bible? Yes. Were the Jews the authors of the Old Testament? Yes! Do we find a description in the Old Testament of eternal punishment? YES!

Proverbs 11:7
7 When a wicked man dies, his expectation will perish,
And the hope of the unjust perishes.

Psalm 11:6-7
6 Upon the wicked He will rain coals; Fire and brimstone and a burning wind Shall be the portion of their cup.
7 For the LORD is righteous, He loves righteousness; His countenance beholds the upright.

Psalm 140:10
10 Let burning coals fall upon them; Let them be cast into the fire, Into deep pits, that they rise not up again.


Nobody is forcing you to do anything. It's a website, so cutting and pasting is a necessity.

--------------------------------------I never said I was being forced you asked why did i not comment on your other quotes, and dared to compare me to you. We would all be alot more informed if you would cut and paste scripture in context. Now if you can't, I will shut up. But for the life of me I cannot understand why a pastor would be so cavalier in his attitude. I thought you were going to debate logos. Now all can see you for who you really are. Good day sir.
------------------------------------from the debate
Quote: Pastor Kevin


Shame on you.

 

[solarb]

HELP with quotes

HELP with quotes

can anyone help me with using quotes? I need to seperate my comments from the other persons?
thanks

 

[ebenz47037]

can anyone help me with using quotes? I need to seperate my comments from the other persons?
thanks

Like this without the spaces:
[ QUOTE=solarb ]can anyone help me with using quotes? I need to seperate my comments from the other persons?
thanks[ /QUOTE ]

 

[Ecumenicist]

Quite honestly, I have not found one evangelical who was able to tell me the rationale why we are called to love our enemies. Somewhere along the way, they dispensed with the "Sermon on the Mount."

Incredibly, I have had it argued against me here at TOL quite vehemently that the Sermon
on the Mount doesn't apply to Christians. The logic is that Its a sermon addressed to the
Pharisees and Jews in the context of the law before the revelation of the nature of Christ,
and therefore doesn't apply to the behavior of "true Christians," who are "above the law."

 

[solarb]

Like this without the spaces:
[ QUOTE=solarb ]can anyone help me with using quotes? I need to seperate my comments from the other persons?
thanks[ /QUOTE ]

testing can anyone say compassion beyond Ccomprehension, LOVE WITHOUT LIMIT[ /QUOTE ]

TEST

 

[solarb]

Dave Miller

Dave Miller

Thank you Dave

 

[Damian]

Incredibly, I have had it argued against me here at TOL quite vehemently that the Sermon
on the Mount doesn't apply to Christians. The logic is that Its a sermon addressed to the
Pharisees and Jews in the context of the law before the revelation of the nature of Christ,
and therefore doesn't apply to the behavior of "true Christians," who are "above the law."

Yes. I have heard the argument. It's called "dispensationalism" - the belief that the Christian can "dispense" with the teachings of Jesus Christ and two thirds of the New Testament. No pun intended.