BRXII Battle talk

[solarb]

my opinion

PastorKevin's position - biblical and one of the biggest obstacles to faith in the bible being divinely authored. he fully embraces the despicable teaching of the bible on the subject.

Logos_X position - biblically based wishful grasping at hemeneutical straws. he unsuccessfully trys to explain why the supposedly misunderstood teaching of scriptures is
not as despicable as it appears.

Greetings: my opinion;
you should become a athiest.
I wonder, would you find the bible despicable if i found one good thing in it?
how about 10 good things?
50?
100?
how many good things would it take for you to not think of the bible as despicable?

 

[CabinetMaker]

Solarb, Follow this link please
http://www.theologyonline.com/forums/showthread.php?p=1287336#post1287336

 

[red77]

No it will be because that is what His Word plainly says.

You really dont have answer for the symbolism in revelation do you? I'd actually like you to answer Chas Clean's point....how could it be anything other than symbolism....? Do you read every single thing in revelation literally????

 

[bigbang123]

my opinion

PastorKevin's position - biblical and one of the biggest obstacles to faith in the bible being divinely authored. he fully embraces the despicable teaching of the bible on the subject.

Logos_X position - biblically based wishful grasping at hemeneutical straws. he unsuccessfully trys to explain why the supposedly misunderstood teaching of scriptures is
not as despicable as it appears.

Greetings: my opinion;
you should become a athiest.
I wonder, would you find the bible despicable if i found one good thing in it?
how about 10 good things?
50?
100?
how many good things would it take for you to not think of the bible as despicable?

unbelievers spend eternity in the Lake of Fire - that bible teaching is despicable

i didn't say the whole bible is despicable

 

[red77]

Consider these verses as spoken by Jesus: Mathew 7: 13"Enter through the narrow gate. For wide is the gate and broad is the road that leads to destruction, and many enter through it. 14But small is the gate and narrow the road that leads to life, and only a few find it.
There is a wide gate that leads to destruction, not second chances. It was spoken by Jesus indicating that He knew there would be people who reject His offer of salvation. I believe God made His offer to ALL (meaning each and every one) knowing full well the only a relative few would accept. That does not invalidate His offer.

i'm well aware of the verse you use, its a fave of those who believe in eternal torment but it doesnt actually say that the broad path leads to endless agony does it?

All things are possible with God is not the same thing as saying All things will happen with God. Possiblities are not guarntees.

Oh i agree, but in that case why did Jesus say such a thing to the disciples when they asked him who could be saved? You said earlier that God knew full well that only a relative few would accept the offer......Jesus seemed to know this too and said in a direct answer to the disciples shocked question that ALL things are possible with God but with man this is impossible, in your doctrine you gaurantee that God will not be able to do all things because you steadfastly believe that God will not reconcile many many people.... You therefore limit God....

Jesus ransomed all sin so that no sin stands between us and God. God gave men free will to accept or reject Him and God lets live and die by our will.

I think this verse is frequently miss-quoted by unversal salvation believers. It was offered as encouragement to Timothy in his ministry, not as a statement of doctrine. My view (and this is only my view) is that Jesus saved all men from their sins. Those that believe are especailly saved because we are redeemed to everlasting life in heaven.

"you think".....I think if you're honest this is hardly a convincing argument to what reads as plain as day unless your doctrine says otherwise, you can hardly 'mis quote' this passage.....

My doctrine does not have God failing. It has men failing. Universalists blame God for mens failures and they can't accept that so they re-invent God into this really nice guy who doesn't really mean what He says. Quit blaming God for mans failings and things become clear.

Yes it does, whenever God claims to be the saviour of the world its mortal man who messes up the plan, a handful of very lucky and astute people will be spared an eternity of pain while billions will suffer in agony, where you get this stuff about 'universalists blaming God' is just bizarre, they believe that God will have all men to come to the truth, they dont blame God for mans failings and that is just total misconception on your part....

 

[solarb]

on being a catholic

on being a catholic

Solarb, Follow this link please
http://www.theologyonline.com/forums/showthread.php?p=1287336#post1287336

I followed the link and I am baptized a catholic, I wasn't born one. I do not believe much they teach anymore either. I go the the church ocasionally only because I'm familar with the routines. As for your thoughts on "works" i forget the scripture "faith without works is dead" i think it means don't just believe in me act accordingly.

 

[bigbang123]

my opinion

PastorKevin's position - biblical and one of the biggest obstacles to faith in the bible being divinely authored. he fully embraces the despicable teaching of the bible on the subject.

Logos_X position - biblically based wishful grasping at hemeneutical straws. he unsuccessfully trys to explain why the supposedly misunderstood teaching of scriptures is
not as despicable as it appears.

they are both victims of trying to derive a coherent, gracious and righteous theology from the largely noble but flawed work of men (THE BIBLE).

 

[bigbang123]

unbelievers spend eternity in the Lake of Fire - that bible teaching is despicable

ALSO - cruel, barbarous, brutal, degenerate, depraved, evil, harsh, hateful, heartless, malevolent, merciless, monstrous, ruthless, sadistic and vicious

 

[red77]

PK's third round post is my POTD. :first:

Excellent!

PK, has the luxury in this debate of simply preaching the gospel! And he did it brilliantly in round 3. Way to go pastor!

PK, could have coasted in round 3 since Logos flubbed up round 3 big time but instead PK brought out the big guns and shut the door hard. :up:

I've heard that universalism is regarded as a sick and twisted idealogy from certain areas and I'd really love to know why, its bizarre.....the doctrine of unrelenting agonising excrutiating pain is one of righteousness apparently except that its sickening in so so many ways, some of which being....

A: you'll never ever find someone who believes in hell and eternal torment as being someone who thinks for a second they will suffer the agony, its always 'holy' and 'just' for God to torment other people who are out of sight and out of mind.....

B: Most ET'ers believe that they're part of a significantly small number of people to escape the massive indescribable suffering, this is also ok because those who dont find the path deserve their fate......

C: Imagine a match being lit under your arm and the agony that that would feel until all the flesh burnt away, that might take a minute or so (imagine how long that minute would feel) and the ET belief is that this is what requites God's justice not for a minute but throughout eternity - aeon after aeon after aeon, if we saw a man subject an animal to barbaric cruelty with no point we'd brandish him a sadist but ET'ers call God righteous, loving holy and just to dispense agony to billions with no point in the name of righteousness - but again - always to other people.....

D: God gives us our moral compass, he gives us the abillity to love, to feel compassion and to show pity and empathy to our fellow man, if we love someone we'd move mountains to stop them from being badly hurt and would protect them from the smallest harm if we could - be it a bruised knee or maybe a broken nail, but God - whose love/compassion and multitude of tender mercies would far outweigh our own - will torture beyond description the majority of his creation with no constructive intent whatsoever - just to cause blinding intolerable pain.....

E: Gospel translates as 'good news'.....not in the doctrine of eternal torment it doesnt, it starts off with the worst possible news ever - and then trys to say that the 'good news' is that a fraction of people willl escape the worst fate unimaginable.....that aint 'good news'........

F: in case it wasnt clear already all those who believe in eternal hell believe that other people will suffer agony.....

whats more sickening, God reconcilng all and that punishments meted out are done with purpose and restorative intent and that all suffering will be vanquished -
Or Billions upon billions of people suffering for no purpose whatsoever? (unless you count that as being just and fair....)

:think:

 

[bigbang123]

i said

my opinion

PastorKevin's position - biblical and one of the biggest obstacles to faith in the bible being divinely authored. he fully embraces the despicable teaching of the bible on the subject.

Logos_X position - biblically based wishful grasping at hemeneutical straws. he unsuccessfully trys to explain why the supposedly misunderstood teaching of scriptures is
not as despicable as it appears.

you said

Greetings: my opinion;
you should become a athiest.
I wonder, would you find the bible despicable if i found one good thing in it?
how about 10 good things?
50?
100?
how many good things would it take for you to not think of the bible as despicable?

i said

unbelievers spend eternity in the Lake of Fire - that bible teaching is despicable

i didn't say the whole bible is despicable

but forget for a second that you mistakenly thought i said the bible was totally despicable.

what a small universe you live in if you only think i just have two worldview options to choose from

a) biblical inerrantism

or

b) atheism

my world is a little bigger than that - you should come over and visit some time.

 

[solarb]

My error

My error

i said



you said



i said



but forget for a second that you mistakenly thought i said the bible was totally despicable.

what a small universe you live in if you only think i just have two worldview options to choose from

a) biblical inerrantism

or

b) atheism

my world is a little bigger than that - you should come over and visit some time.

I Stand Corrected !

 

[bigbang123]

I Stand Corrected !

no problem - you are new here - just consider this part of your baptism of fire

 

[CabinetMaker]

...
E: Gospel translates as 'good news'.....not in the doctrine of eternal torment it doesnt, it starts off with the worst possible news ever - and then trys to say that the 'good news' is that a fraction of people willl escape the worst fate unimaginable.....that aint 'good news'........
:

You forgot to mention one tiny but ever so crucial little detail. People who hold that the lake of fire is eternal always pass on the good news that you don't have to suffer the eternal torment either. We are always ready to teach you who Jesus is and what He has done for you. Once you understand that hell is not in your future, you are freed from that concern so that you can fully know who Jesus is! Your life is better. Thats the good news!

With your universalist view, it sounds like you are never quite sure if hell is in your future or not.

 

[red77]

You forgot to mention one tiny but ever so crucial little detail. People who hold that the lake of fire is eternal always pass on the good news that you don't have to suffer the eternal torment either. We are always ready to teach you who Jesus is and what He has done for you. Once you understand that hell is not in your future, you are freed from that concern so that you can fully know who Jesus is! Your life is better. Thats the good news!

With your universalist view, it sounds like you are never quite sure if hell is in your future or not.

I didnt 'forget' to mention one 'crucial' little detail at all......I'd already stated that the 'good news' is that there is a way out by your doctrine but only for a very few....that is not 'good news' in itself at all......can you answer the other points?

 

[CabinetMaker]

I didnt 'forget' to mention one 'crucial' little detail at all......I'd already stated that the 'good news' is that there is a way out by your doctrine but only for a very few....that is not 'good news' in itself at all......can you answer the other points?

Your statement is wrong. There is a way out for ALL WHO WANT IT! God has called to your heart. What is your answer?

 

[red77]

Your statement is wrong. There is a way out for ALL WHO WANT IT! God has called to your heart. What is your answer?

How is it wrong? you believe that the majority of this earth is destined for eternal torment - right or wrong? Otherwise why do you use the verse about 'narrow being the way to life'?
you believe that billions of people are destined to suffer interminably for ever - right or wrong? You believe that there is 'way out' for everyone but you already believe that very few will make it - RIGHT OR WRONG???!
And what are you on about with this 'what is my answer' stuff? Have you seen my icon?

 

[red77]

Seeing as you cant edit these posts i'd also like you to address the other points that were in my earlier post, is it uncomfortable to have the truth of the matter given to you that you could only address point 'E'....? Is it not true that all those who believe in ET believe its 'holy' righteous' and 'just' for other people to bear the excruciating agony??

 

[CabinetMaker]

I've heard that universalism is regarded as a sick and twisted idealogy from certain areas and I'd really love to know why, its bizarre.....the doctrine of unrelenting agonising excrutiating pain is one of righteousness apparently except that its sickening in so so many ways, some of which being....

A: you'll never ever find someone who believes in hell and eternal torment as being someone who thinks for a second they will suffer the agony, its always 'holy' and 'just' for God to torment other people who are out of sight and out of mind.....

Any body who accepts Jesus as their Lord ans Saviour is exempt. That simple.

B: Most ET'ers believe that they're part of a significantly small number of people to escape the massive indescribable suffering, this is also ok because those who dont find the path deserve their fate......

True. By Jesus's own words, true. For narrow is the gate and few will find it.

C: Imagine a match being lit under your arm and the agony that that would feel until all the flesh burnt away, that might take a minute or so (imagine how long that minute would feel) and the ET belief is that this is what requites God's justice not for a minute but throughout eternity - aeon after aeon after aeon, if we saw a man subject an animal to barbaric cruelty with no point we'd brandish him a sadist but ET'ers call God righteous, loving holy and just to dispense agony to billions with no point in the name of righteousness - but again - always to other people.....

Again, anybody who accepts Jesus is exempt. And I do believe God is Holy and Just. I do not claim to understand why He has set things up with the lake of fire. I thank God that He has taken the time to explain things to me and that He has provided for my future. Please note, it is not a future based on avoiding hell, it is a future based on being with a living Jesus.

D: God gives us our moral compass, he gives us the abillity to love, to feel compassion and to show pity and empathy to our fellow man, if we love someone we'd move mountains to stop them from being badly hurt and would protect them from the smallest harm if we could - be it a bruised knee or maybe a broken nail, but God - whose love/compassion and multitude of tender mercies would far outweigh our own - will torture beyond description the majority of his creation with no constructive intent whatsoever - just to cause blinding intolerable pain.....

We are not God. We frequently try to be much nicer than God. We totally forget that God, by His own admission, is also a God of Wrath, a jealous God, a vengful God. Never forget, in the OT the punishment for many things was stoning. Stoning was a slow and painful death. This slow and painful death was required by God. Why do you over-look or just flat out ignore that about God? Remember, You claim that God is so loving He would never torture anybody, ever, for any reason. And yet you have the OT....

E: Gospel translates as 'good news'.....not in the doctrine of eternal torment it doesnt, it starts off with the worst possible news ever - and then trys to say that the 'good news' is that a fraction of people willl escape the worst fate unimaginable.....that aint 'good news'........

The good news is that Jesus died for your sins and raised you to everlasting life with Him if you will believe through faith alone that He is your saviour.

F: in case it wasnt clear already all those who believe in eternal hell believe that other people will suffer agony.....[/quote} :yawn: I'll say it one more time since you seem not to understand well. Anybody who accepts by faith alone in this life alone that Jesus is the saviour will not go to the lake of fire. That is pretty good news!

whats more sickening, God reconcilng all and that punishments meted out are done with purpose and restorative intent and that all suffering will be vanquished -
Or Billions upon billions of people suffering for no purpose whatsoever? (unless you count that as being just and fair....)

Whats more sickening, a God who says what He will do and does what He says or a God made in our own image?

Personnaly, I was made in Gods image. God has told me who and what He is and what He expects of me and what He will do. Praise God for that TRUTH.

 

[Redfin]

You have an interesting way of sharing the gospel.

At least what I am sharing IS the gospel.

It weems that when people really push you on your beliefs you find yourself unable to support them.

You have not pushed, you have simply asserted and disregarded or disparaged.

So instead of digging into the Bible for support of your beliefs you accuse me of being a swine.

I have backed up every statement I've made with scripture. I have also corrected numerous errors on your part with scripture. Your disregard for scripture indicts you without any help from me. And it was Jesus Who originated that characterization. Do you disagree with Him on that too?

As to the multiple verses quoted by you and Logos and Zadok, I have looked them all up to see if what you are saying is true. I have yet to find one verse that has not been quoted out of context.

The context is this discussion and the points being raised therein.

 

[CabinetMaker]

How is it wrong?

Your statement is wrong because you use it to imply that believers of ET are somehow specially elected to be spared the fate. That is false. We have accepted Jesus as our saviour and we understand that we have been redeamed to God and heaven because of that decision.

you believe that the majority of this earth is destined for eternal torment - right or wrong? Otherwise why do you use the verse about 'narrow being the way to life'?

Yes

you believe that billions of people are destined to suffer interminably for ever - right or wrong?

Wrong. I believe that large numbers of people will end up in hell but I do not believe they are destined to do so. I believe that they have rejected Jesus of their own free will and the Bible explains, very clearly, what their fate will be.

You believe that there is 'way out' for everyone but you already believe that very few will make it - RIGHT OR WRONG???!

Right. It is the job of believers (my job) to share the good news with as many people as I can so they too can be with Jesus in heaven.

And what are you on about with this 'what is my answer' stuff? Have you seen my icon?

Your icon is a dog, states you have posted over 1000 posts, that you are christian(other) and that you are moderate with rightward leanings. What does that have to do with your answers? Which, by the way, I am still waiting for (your answers that is. You haven't answered one question of mine with a direct answer).