BRXII Battle talk

[Aimiel]

How? If the devils works mean influencing many away from faith and God then if ET is correct statistically he's done a pretty good job....how is that 'defeated and overcome' Aimiel?

Obviously, through your 'universalist glasses' everything gets all cockeyed. Telling people that everyone gets into Heaven isn't The Gospel, any more than telling people that Jesus can save their soul from hell is a lie. Satan was defeated at Calvary, but believing that all men go to Heaven isn't found anywhere in The Bible.

 

[red77]

Obviously, through your 'universalist glasses' everything gets all cockeyed. Telling people that everyone gets into Heaven isn't The Gospel, any more than telling people that Jesus can save their soul from hell is a lie. Satan was defeated at Calvary, but believing that all men go to Heaven isn't found anywhere in The Bible.

Answer the question Aimiel, how is the devils intentions 'overcome, defeated and destroyed' when he wins so many souls with no hope for their redemption and restoration - ever? Satan was defeated at calvary? hardly - going by your yardstick for success! Cluelessness is indeed a choice!

 

[logos_x]

They are destroyed, defeated and overcome, already. Those whose names are written in The Lamb's Book of Life will also gain eternal life. The problem of universalism is it doesn't make any difference between children of The Lord and children of the devil.

How does it not make any difference between the children of the Lord and the "children of the Devil"?

The differnces are the same in your theology and in Universal Salvation. The only difference in the theological positions is that the "children of the devil", in your view, remain so permanently, and you give death final victory. Universal salvation acknowledges that the works of the devil are defeated...which is why eternal torment is a ludicrous concept. It also acknowledges that the LAST enemy to be destroyed is death...which means it has NO victory at all forever in the future.

The children of God will draw all creation into their victory...including mankind. That is Biblical...not this eternal misery for the damned claptrap that the tradition has taught.

 

[Nineveh]

The children of God will draw all creation into their victory...including mankind. That is Biblical...

Please cite the verse that says "the children of God will draw all creation into their victory including mankind".

 

[logos_x]

Please cite the verse that says "the children of God will draw all creation into their victory including mankind".

For those who are led by God's Spirit are, all of them, God's sons.

You have not for the second time acquired the consciousness of being--a consciousness which fills you with terror. But you have acquired a deep inward conviction of having been adopted as sons--a conviction which prompts us to cry aloud, "Abba! our Father!" The Spirit Himself bears witness, along with our own spirits, to the fact that we are children of God; and if children, then heirs too--heirs of God and co-heirs with Christ; if indeed we are sharers in Christ's sufferings, in order that we may also be sharers in His glory.

Why, what we now suffer I count as nothing in comparison with the glory which is soon to be manifested in us. For all creation, gazing eagerly as if with outstretched neck, is waiting and longing to see the manifestation of the sons of God. For the Creation fell into subjection to failure and unreality (not of its own choice, but by the will of Him who so subjected it).

Yet there was always the hope that at last the Creation itself would also be set free from the thraldom of decay so as to enjoy the liberty that will attend the glory of the children of God. For we know that the whole of Creation is groaning together in the pains of childbirth until this hour.

And more than that, we ourselves, though we possess the Spirit as a foretaste and pledge of the glorious future, yet we ourselves inwardly sigh, as we wait and long for open recognition as sons through the deliverance of our bodies.

It is *in hope* that we have been saved. But an object of hope is such no longer when it is present to view; for when a man has a thing before his eyes, how can he be said to hope for it? But if we hope for something which we do not see, then we eagerly and patiently wait for it.
(Rom 8:14-25 WNT)

 

[Aimiel]

Obviously neither Red or Logos have read my signature. They're trying to make sense out of foolishness. It just doesn't work that way.

 

[Ecumenicist]

Well its not our fault that we're here is it? We dont have any say in the matter.....

I chose to fly when I was a child. We had a game where we would see who could / would
jump from successively higher steps on a staircase. I went to the top. I landed at the
bottom.

My sister once chose to try to breathe under water, that didn't work out so well either...
Fortunately, she lived and learned, as I did.

Free will has its limits.

 

[logos_x]

Obviously neither Red or Logos have read my signature. They're trying to make sense out of foolishness. It just doesn't work that way.

Why would you think that it makes no sense?

 

[Ecumenicist]

Obviously neither Red or Logos have read my signature. They're trying to make sense out of foolishness. It just doesn't work that way.

That quote applies to acceptance of Christ's death and resurrection, its not meant to
justify ignorance.

 

[Aimiel]

Why would you think that it makes no sense?

You both make The Word of God into foolishness, without understanding that you do so, and then try to explain why you believe what you do. For some reason you just don't understand or accept The Gospel, so you have to make up one of your own. Then you try to sell it to those who actually have The Gospel, not realizing that we see it for what it is: the first lie, merely re-packaged, "You shall not surely die." Jesus said that hell is the second death. It isn't orientation for Heaven, it is eternal punishment that sinners face. You don't have The Gospel, you have the 'anti-gospel' message. :nono:

 

[logos_x]

You both make The Word of God into foolishness, without understanding that you do so, and then try to explain why you believe what you do. For some reason you just don't understand or accept The Gospel, so you have to make up one of your own. Then you try to sell it to those who actually have The Gospel, not realizing that we see it for what it is: the first lie, merely re-packaged, "You shall not surely die." Jesus said that hell is the second death. It isn't orientation for Heaven, it is eternal punishment that sinners face. You don't have The Gospel, you have the 'anti-gospel' message. :nono:

:rotfl:

You are full of prunes.

 

[Nineveh]

For those who are led by God's Spirit are, all of them, God's sons.

You have not for the second time acquired the consciousness of being--a consciousness which fills you with terror. But you have acquired a deep inward conviction of having been adopted as sons--a conviction which prompts us to cry aloud, "Abba! our Father!" The Spirit Himself bears witness, along with our own spirits, to the fact that we are children of God; and if children, then heirs too--heirs of God and co-heirs with Christ; if indeed we are sharers in Christ's sufferings, in order that we may also be sharers in His glory.

Why, what we now suffer I count as nothing in comparison with the glory which is soon to be manifested in us. For all creation, gazing eagerly as if with outstretched neck, is waiting and longing to see the manifestation of the sons of God. For the Creation fell into subjection to failure and unreality (not of its own choice, but by the will of Him who so subjected it).

Yet there was always the hope that at last the Creation itself would also be set free from the thraldom of decay so as to enjoy the liberty that will attend the glory of the children of God. For we know that the whole of Creation is groaning together in the pains of childbirth until this hour.

And more than that, we ourselves, though we possess the Spirit as a foretaste and pledge of the glorious future, yet we ourselves inwardly sigh, as we wait and long for open recognition as sons through the deliverance of our bodies.

It is *in hope* that we have been saved. But an object of hope is such no longer when it is present to view; for when a man has a thing before his eyes, how can he be said to hope for it? But if we hope for something which we do not see, then we eagerly and patiently wait for it.
(Rom 8:14-25 WNT)

It appears you want to offer to the unsaved what God does not. Rom 8:1 WNT: "Therefore now nothing of condemnation is to them that be in Christ Jesus, which wander not after the flesh." Perhaps it is that you believe all follow the Spirit, even when they confess to following idols.

In all of this post, I do not see your claim realized. "the children of God will draw all creation into their victory including mankind." Firstly, it is God's victory, secondly we (The Body) may be heirs with Christ, but none of your post indicates all are children of God, nor that they have the power to "draw all of creation" anywhere. "...the creation itself also will be set free from its slavery to corruption into the freedom of the glory of the children of God." Not by.

 

[logos_x]

You both make The Word of God into foolishness, without understanding that you do so, and then try to explain why you believe what you do. For some reason you just don't understand or accept The Gospel, so you have to make up one of your own. Then you try to sell it to those who actually have The Gospel, not realizing that we see it for what it is: the first lie, merely re-packaged, "You shall not surely die." Jesus said that hell is the second death. It isn't orientation for Heaven, it is eternal punishment that sinners face. You don't have The Gospel, you have the 'anti-gospel' message. :nono:

You, apparently, see no difference between "thou shalt not surely die" and "the last enemy to be destroyed is death".

In fact, it is your view that death has final victory...and is the only acceptable thing to you because God said you will surely die...and then it turns death into "undead" people burning for all eternity. This is perverse...taking "you will not surely die" and making it true, and leaving people undead in eternal misery.

If anything should be called heresy, it is the whole construct of unending undead torment.

 

[logos_x]

It appears you want to offer to the unsaved what God does not. Rom 8:1 WNT: "Therefore now nothing of condemnation is to them that be in Christ Jesus, which wander not after the flesh." Perhaps it is that you believe all follow the Spirit, even when they confess to following idols.

In all of this post, I do not see your claim realized. "the children of God will draw all creation into their victory including mankind." Firstly, it is God's victory, secondly we (The Body) may be heirs with Christ, but none of your post indicates all are children of God, nor that they have the power to "draw all of creation" anywhere. "...the creation itself also will be set free from its slavery to corruption into the freedom of the glory of the children of God." Not by.

So...all creation does not include all mankind then? :think:

 

[Nineveh]

So...all creation does not include all mankind then? :think:

I think you need to read my reply again.

 

[Aimiel]

That quote applies to acceptance of Christ's death and resurrection, its not meant to justify ignorance.

You're trying to justify your ignorance, by discounting the wisdom enclosed within Scripture. If you carry 'another' Gospel, you're accurssed, and (obviously) one of the 'perishing.' Professing Jesus as Lord isn't bringing The Gospel, its simply an argument put up as a defense. The Gospel isn't, "Everyone is saved," or the angels would have completed the deliverance of that message the moment Christ was born by saying, "Peace on earth, goodwill towards men." It only announced what God offers. The offer still stands, while men live and breathe. It doesn't extend beyond that. Saying that it does is the same as saying, "You shall not surely die," which is 'another' gospel, which brings the curse, and is the message that Satan brings.

 

[Aimiel]

You are full of prunes.

You make The Word of God into foolishness. It would be funny if it wasn't so serious. :sigh:

 

[Aimiel]

If anything should be called heresy, it is the whole construct of unending undead torment.

Now you're finally beginning to show your true colors. You call The Word of God, "Heresy." :nono:

 

[logos_x]

I think you need to read my reply again.

I read it twice already.
You are trying to say the all creation does not include all mankind.

If all creation comes into the glory of the children of God in the future...what is left out in that statement.

Secondly, the passage then focuses on the children of God themselves also waiting for our recognition as children of God, through the redemption of our bodies.

The future is incredible. If we are like Him, that means millions will be like Him. What will we do then...let the rest of mankind continue in misery forever? Or will we be God's instruments, His ministers of righteousnes and of reconciliation?

Paul says that God all in all is the goal, the destination... and that in the dispensation of the fullness of times (the ages) all things will be in Christ. I believe he knew what he was writing about.

 

[logos_x]

Now you're finally beginning to show your true colors. You call The Word of God, "Heresy." :nono:

Nope. I'm calling your theology heresy.