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Grandstand discussion: "Ghost's Views on The Nature of Christ"

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  • Originally posted by Lon View Post
    Note that the Son is not divided into two distinct persons but subsists as one.
    Then you disagree with AMR's claim that God did not die on the cross? You cannot say that Jesus is one person, and then also say that God was not in Christ when Jesus died. That is a contradiction.

    Comment


    • Originally posted by ghost View Post
      Then you disagree with AMR's claim that God did not die on the cross? You cannot say that Jesus is one person, and then also say that God was not in Christ when Jesus died. That is a contradiction.
      Ghost, toast (clink or burnt) or roast?

      We need to avoid the JW illogic due to misunderstanding trinity/incarnation/Deity/humanity/death.

      How much of the problem here is semantical/imprecision? Neither of you deny the Trinity/Deity/humanity/death/resurrection of Christ, so there are degrees of 'heresy' (salvific vs debatable).
      Know God and make Him known! (YWAM)

      They said: "Where is the God of Elijah?"
      I say: "Where are the Elijahs of God?" (Ravenhill "Why Revival Tarries")

      Rev. 1:17, 18; Jer. 9:23, 24

      "No Compromise!" (Keith Green)

      The Pledge: He died for me; I'll live for Him.

      Comment


      • Originally posted by godrulz View Post
        Ghost, toast (clink or burnt) or roast?

        We need to avoid the JW illogic due to misunderstanding trinity/incarnation/Deity/humanity/death.

        How much of the problem here is semantical/imprecision? Neither of you deny the Trinity/Deity/humanity/death/resurrection of Christ, so there are degrees of 'heresy' (salvific vs debatable).
        We also need to avoid claiming that Jesus has two natures, minds, souls/spirits.

        I use to say that Jesus was not fully human/man, because of all the false teaching I had to counter that redefined the man He is. It was wrong for me to phrase it as such, but I did so to counter the "two-nature, two soul/spirit, double-minded Jesus. Jesus is the perfect man with God's nature, who had to learn to speak, to walk, etc.

        Comment


        • Originally posted by ghost View Post
          We also need to avoid claiming that Jesus has two natures, minds, souls/spirits.

          I use to say that Jesus was not fully human/man, because of all the false teaching I had to counter that redefined the man He is. It was wrong for me to phrase it as such, but I did so to counter the "two-nature, two soul/spirit, double-minded Jesus. Jesus is the perfect man with God's nature, who had to learn to speak, to walk, etc.
          You are right that how we define 'nature' may be part of the problem. AMR is right to insist on accepted definitions, not your personal one that is not standard/technical (how many debates go south over this issue with you?).

          One person with two natures is defensible. Some other details like two wills is debatable in my mind. None of us say that Jesus is schizo/multiple personality, but we simply don't have clear revelation on how Deity/humanity relate in the unique (monogenes) person of Christ during the incarnation. Do we die on this hill and shed blood with brethren like we would with a JW over the Deity of Christ?
          Know God and make Him known! (YWAM)

          They said: "Where is the God of Elijah?"
          I say: "Where are the Elijahs of God?" (Ravenhill "Why Revival Tarries")

          Rev. 1:17, 18; Jer. 9:23, 24

          "No Compromise!" (Keith Green)

          The Pledge: He died for me; I'll live for Him.

          Comment


          • Originally posted by Guyver View Post
            Thanks for the response. Unfortunately, it failed to answer the question. I asked you to list the key behaviors and attributes of a sociopath.

            Instead, you sent me a wiki link on psychopathy?

            It seems to me that as a retired professional from the field, you could have selected a more reliable source.

            Also, I'm not sure if you are trying to argue that there is no distinction between the two rather than both being a subset of the condition known as APD.
            You are a first rate idiot! I send you this:

            "David T. Lykken proposes psychopathy and sociopathy are two distinct kinds of antisocial personality disorder. He believes psychopaths are born with temperamental differences such as impulsivity, cortical underarousal, and fearlessness that lead them to risk-seeking behavior and an inability to internalize social norms. On the other hand, he claims sociopaths have relatively normal temperaments; their personality disorder being more an effect of negative sociological factors like parental neglect, delinquent peers, poverty, and extremely low or extremely high intelligence. Both personality disorders are the result of an interaction between genetic predispositions and environmental factors, but psychopathy leans towards the hereditary whereas sociopathy tends towards the environmental."

            Then you cannot see it addresses sociopaths? What you what is for me to give you, for free, information you have no right to request. If you are so interested in the topic, go to a psychological forum, I'm sure there are some out there. Do NOT ask me about this again!
            So, what?

            believe it!

            Comment


            • If everyone agrees that nature does not entail physical characteristicss then ghost is a monophysite. So am I. What is wrong with that?

              Comment


              • Originally posted by voltaire View Post
                If everyone agrees that nature does not entail physical characteristicss then ghost is a monophysite. So am I. What is wrong with that?
                Quite a lot . . .

                But then neither you nor ghost seem open to learning from others, so what can be done or said to correct your view?

                Nang
                "The immutable God never learned anything and never changed his mind. He knew everything from eternity."

                " The difference between faith and saving faith are the propositions believed."
                Gordon H. Clark

                "If a man be lost, God must not have the blame for it; but if a man be saved, God must have the glory of it."
                Charles Spurgeon

                Comment


                • Originally posted by ghost View Post
                  Then you disagree with AMR's claim that God did not die on the cross? You cannot say that Jesus is one person, and then also say that God was not in Christ when Jesus died. That is a contradiction.
                  Again, could a cross kill God? It wasn't on here, so I'd recommend starting a thread "Did God die on the Cross?"
                  Last year the Lutheran church discussed this topic at length to hammer out their view on the matter.
                  You'll get a good discussion going but do continue your one on one with AMR. It will only clarify discussion and He's better prepared for this particular discussion than I, having read all the books and gone through these indepth classes.
                  My New Years Resolution: 1 Peter 3:15
                  Omniscient without man's qualification. John 1:3 "Nothing"
                  Colossians 1:17 "Nothing" John 15:5 "Nothing"
                  Mighty, ALL mighty (omnipotent). Revelation 1:8
                  No possible limitation Isaiah 40:25 Joshua 24:15
                  Infinite (Omnipresent) Psalm 145:3 Hebrews 4:13

                  ? Yep

                  Now to Him who is able to do exceeding abundantly above all that we ask or think... Amen. -Ephesians 3:20 & 21

                  ... when I became an adult, I set aside childish ways. Titus 3:10 Ephesians 4:29-32; 5:11

                  Separation of church and State is not atheism "We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights..."

                  Comment


                  • Originally posted by voltaire View Post
                    If everyone agrees that nature does not entail physical characteristicss then ghost is a monophysite. So am I. What is wrong with that?
                    It is hard to spell.
                    Know God and make Him known! (YWAM)

                    They said: "Where is the God of Elijah?"
                    I say: "Where are the Elijahs of God?" (Ravenhill "Why Revival Tarries")

                    Rev. 1:17, 18; Jer. 9:23, 24

                    "No Compromise!" (Keith Green)

                    The Pledge: He died for me; I'll live for Him.

                    Comment


                    • Originally posted by Lon View Post
                      Again, could a cross kill God? It wasn't on here, so I'd recommend starting a thread "Did God die on the Cross?"
                      Last year the Lutheran church discussed this topic at length to hammer out their view on the matter.
                      You'll get a good discussion going but do continue your one on one with AMR. It will only clarify discussion and He's better prepared for this particular discussion than I, having read all the books and gone through these indepth classes.
                      JWs argue that Jesus is not God because who would run the universe if God was dead on the cross?! This is dumb and reflects zip understanding of trinity, Deity, incarnation, humanity, death.

                      The eternal, invisible, infinite God did not die in total on the cross (He is spirit and immortal).

                      We know that Jesus is not just spirit-Deity nor solely mortal humanity. He is God-Man, fully God, fully man (Deity/humanity in one person=unique). Deity cannot die without adding humanity (nor can the Father be hungry, thirsty, limited, weak without incarnating). Only the Word/Son became flesh, not the entire triune Godhead. The fulness of Deity is in Christ, but the Father and Holy Spirit did not assume flesh, so they did not die as humans. Mormon concepts of physical gods (Father included) are false, but the incarnation is true.

                      We can say that the One who died on the cross is God, but we should mean that this is the Son incarnate, not the triune God in total. The Father and Son are in relationship, but they are not the same personal distinction.

                      There is no reason to avoid two nature talk if we understand it correctly. I am still not sold on traditional two will talk though.
                      Know God and make Him known! (YWAM)

                      They said: "Where is the God of Elijah?"
                      I say: "Where are the Elijahs of God?" (Ravenhill "Why Revival Tarries")

                      Rev. 1:17, 18; Jer. 9:23, 24

                      "No Compromise!" (Keith Green)

                      The Pledge: He died for me; I'll live for Him.

                      Comment


                      • Originally posted by Lon View Post
                        Again, could a cross kill God? It wasn't on here, so I'd recommend starting a thread "Did God die on the Cross?"
                        Last year the Lutheran church discussed this topic at length to hammer out their view on the matter.
                        You'll get a good discussion going but do continue your one on one with AMR. It will only clarify discussion and He's better prepared for this particular discussion than I, having read all the books and gone through these indepth classes.
                        Oops, AMR corrected me here. There was a previous discussion of the same (which also gives further context for Ghost and AMR's One on One).
                        My New Years Resolution: 1 Peter 3:15
                        Omniscient without man's qualification. John 1:3 "Nothing"
                        Colossians 1:17 "Nothing" John 15:5 "Nothing"
                        Mighty, ALL mighty (omnipotent). Revelation 1:8
                        No possible limitation Isaiah 40:25 Joshua 24:15
                        Infinite (Omnipresent) Psalm 145:3 Hebrews 4:13

                        ? Yep

                        Now to Him who is able to do exceeding abundantly above all that we ask or think... Amen. -Ephesians 3:20 & 21

                        ... when I became an adult, I set aside childish ways. Titus 3:10 Ephesians 4:29-32; 5:11

                        Separation of church and State is not atheism "We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights..."

                        Comment


                        • Originally posted by godrulz View Post
                          We can say that the One who died on the cross is God, but we should mean that this is the Son incarnate, not the triune God in total. The Father and Son are in relationship, but they are not the same personal distinction.
                          That's pretty close to the Chaldean statement.
                          Originally posted by godrulz View Post
                          There is no reason to avoid two nature talk if we understand it correctly. I am still not sold on traditional two will talk though.
                          That would be another heresy altogether. The Creed makes it clear that the flesh and divine are indivisible.
                          My New Years Resolution: 1 Peter 3:15
                          Omniscient without man's qualification. John 1:3 "Nothing"
                          Colossians 1:17 "Nothing" John 15:5 "Nothing"
                          Mighty, ALL mighty (omnipotent). Revelation 1:8
                          No possible limitation Isaiah 40:25 Joshua 24:15
                          Infinite (Omnipresent) Psalm 145:3 Hebrews 4:13

                          ? Yep

                          Now to Him who is able to do exceeding abundantly above all that we ask or think... Amen. -Ephesians 3:20 & 21

                          ... when I became an adult, I set aside childish ways. Titus 3:10 Ephesians 4:29-32; 5:11

                          Separation of church and State is not atheism "We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights..."

                          Comment


                          • Originally posted by ghost View Post
                            Please explain what you think "nature" is?
                            Ghost,
                            Sorry for the delay. I have been away from serious TOLing for a few days.

                            For the sake of discussion, I will roughly define "nature" as:

                            The qualities and characteristics that something what it is, and not something else.

                            I could elaborate or quote but I hope this will suffice for now.

                            Basicly, traditional Creedal Christianity has held that Jesus had everything to be "man" and everything to be "God."

                            Peace,
                            Rick

                            Comment


                            • Romans 5 says all who are in adam are condemned. 1 Corinthians 15 say all who are in adam die. The 2 nature crowd insists that Jesus was fully man in every conceivable way. If that is true then romans 5 and 1 corinthians 15 applies to Jesus as well and Jesus was born condemned and was appointed to die as all men are.

                              Comment


                              • Originally posted by voltaire View Post
                                Romans 5 says all who are in adam are condemned. 1 Corinthians 15 say all who are in adam die. The 2 nature crowd insists that Jesus was fully man in every conceivable way. If that is true then romans 5 and 1 corinthians 15 applies to Jesus as well and Jesus was born condemned and was appointed to die as all men are.
                                How can the last (second) Adam be IN the first Adam?

                                Jesus Christ did not suffer death because of His humanity; He suffered death substitutionally for His people, in His humanity.

                                IOW's Jesus died Nang's death, not His own.

                                Nang
                                "The immutable God never learned anything and never changed his mind. He knew everything from eternity."

                                " The difference between faith and saving faith are the propositions believed."
                                Gordon H. Clark

                                "If a man be lost, God must not have the blame for it; but if a man be saved, God must have the glory of it."
                                Charles Spurgeon

                                Comment

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