Discussion thread: One on One: AMR and JCWR on the Temporality of God

[Nathon Detroit]

But that is time from our perspective which I am not convinced is the same as time from Gods perspective.

So.... time is infinite from our perspective but not from God's?

OK, well... not sure where to go from here. :idunno:

All I will say is I think it is irrational to believe that time is something that anyone or anything can be "out of". I think the notion of being "outside of time" is one of those sci-fi, gobbledygook things that have been created over the years via the poor theology of Calvinism and Arminianism. I think the concept turns God into more of a magically fairy than a real, rational, living God that is described in the Bible. And most importantly the concept of God being outside of time flies in the face of His word in which He describes how He interacts with His creation within a sequentially reality for us and for Him.

 

[Nathon Detroit]

Hmm. I suppose that it might be that He is. That would makes His sacrifice on the cross an eternal sacrifice that covers all of our sins.

God says... "it is finished" yet you say it isn't finished.

I rarely throw this word around but that is heresy. God is NOT still on the cross suffering. Jesus is now with the Father in heaven.

 

[CabinetMaker]

So.... time is infinite from our perspective but not from God's?

OK, well... not sure where to go from here. :idunno:

All I will say is I think it is irrational to believe that time is something that anyone or anything can be "out of". I think the notion of being "outside of time" is one of those sci-fi, gobbledygook things that have been created over the years via the poor theology of Calvinism and Arminianism. I think the concept turns God into more of a magically fairy than a real, rational, living God that is described in the Bible. And most importantly the concept of God being outside of time flies in the face of His word in which He describes how He interacts with His creation within a sequentially reality for us and for Him.

For us, time flows from moment to moment. We cannot go to the past and redo things nor can we skip to the future to see what happens. I do not think that God is bound by that aspect time.

 

[Lon]

For sake of accuracy JCWR doesn't claim to be an open theist. Just so ya know.

Er, that's what I said

Oh, POTD understood, but there are mischaracterizations in that post for certain.

 

[CabinetMaker]

God says... "it is finished" yet you say it isn't finished.

I rarely throw this word around but that is heresy. God is NOT still on the cross suffering. Jesus is now with the Father in heaven.

It is finished. But if God can back and forth in time, or least see back into time, then God can still see Jesus on the cross even though through the flow of time, He is not.

 

[Lon]

Grant is going to re-write AMR's posts in byte form. Happy Christmas, Knight.

AMR thinks time came into existence at the beginning of creation because Genesis 1:1 says "In the beginning".

AMR thinks God must be outside of time in order to be all powerful.

AMR regards interpretation with just cause as grounds for suspicion and prefers people to be honestly open as to how these texts are accepted by the majority.

AMR thinks the bible is written so that it can be understood and believes that it conveys the incomprehensible nature of God in the form of comprehansible descriptions.

AMR thinks that if God existed for an eternity in the past then not enough time would yet have passed in order that creation might have happened.

AMR thinks that Jesus said I Am because Jesus is continually in every moment of time at all times. Similarly he thinks that Jesus is hanging on the cross for the same reasons.

AMR thinks that the verses he used cannot have the preposition "before" because that would imply that there was a "before" before creation.

AMR accuses JCWR of understanding the text of Rev. 13:8 analogously!

AMR accuses JCWR of ignoring other Scriptures related to God’s timelessness. 2 Peter 3:8 and Psalm 90:4. He thinks the literal meaning of these passages is that time is of no significance to God.

AMR uses Jude 25; Titus 1:2 and 2 Timothy 1:9 to say that if there was a "before all time" and if we all agree that God is without beginning, then God must have existed prior to time.

AMR claims that Ecclesiastes 3:14-15 show that in the past the future already existed for God.

Meh, this overview is loaded. I think mine was more unbiased though brought up my biased concerns. This is one is somewhat accurate but with more inaccuracies. It is a strictly OV-biased assessment.

 

[Nathon Detroit]

It is finished. But if God can back and forth in time, or least see back into time, then God can still see Jesus on the cross even though through the flow of time, He is not.

So... sometimes He is in time and other times He is not? :idunno:

 

[hippiechyck]

For us, time flows from moment to moment. We cannot go to the past and redo things nor can we skip to the future to see what happens. I do not think that God is bound by that aspect time.

yes, this i agree with

It is finished. But if God can back and forth in time, or least see back into time, then God can still see Jesus on the cross even though through the flow of time, He is not.

this i don't completely agree with

i like the table analogy, that works well for me also...

i should probably not continue here, i'm not a very good debater :think: i just know what i believe, and that is God is on the throne and He knows all...past, present and future

 

[Nathon Detroit]

i should probably not continue here, i'm not a very good debater :think: i just know what i believe, and that is God is on the throne and He knows all...past, present and future

It's OK, we aren't even debating. CabinetMaker is one of my all-time favorite TOL'ers. We are just discussing the issues over a cup of steaming hot coffee. Relax, ask and answer questions and just enjoy yourself!!!

 

[P8ntrDan]

time....

But, doesn't time require the passing of events? Should nothing happen from one moment to the next (ABSOLUTELY NOTHING) would time have passed? Can't we just say that before creation, God simply was?

Bump

 

[Nathon Detroit]

Bump

But, doesn't time require the passing of events?

Time IS the passing of events.

Should nothing happen from one moment to the next (ABSOLUTELY NOTHING) would time have passed? Can't we just say that before creation, God simply was?

What makes you think that the godhead did nothing prior to creation?

Was God in some sort of eternal sleep and suddenly just "popped" into action at creation???

God is the living God (that's how He describes Himself), therefore there is no reason to assume that God didn't think, act, fellowship, relate, act, or anything else that He chose to do prior to creation.

 

[CabinetMaker]

i should probably not continue here, i'm not a very good debater :think: i just know what i believe, and that is God is on the throne and He knows all...past, present and future

It's OK, we aren't even debating. CabinetMaker is one of my all-time favorite TOL'ers. We are just discussing the issues over a cup of steaming hot coffee. Relax, ask and answer questions and just enjoy yourself!!!

Yes, come and join us. The coffee is great and I have learned several things from them. We all have things that we have always believed that we have never really questioned. Descussion like this make us look at some of those beliefs and see if they make sense in light of scripture. Come with a mind open to different points of view and a heart open to Christ and you will learn too! (You'll probably have fun while you're at it.)

 

[CabinetMaker]

Time IS the passing of events.What makes you think that the godhead did nothing prior to creation?

Was God in some sort of eternal sleep and suddenly just "popped" into action at creation???

God is the living God (that's how He describes Himself), therefore there is no reason to assume that God didn't think, act, fellowship, relate, act, or anything else that He chose to do prior to creation.

I don't think that God did nothing before creation. It seems that Satan challenged God during this time before creation and was cast down. Satan was in the garden maybe from the moment it was created.

He probably created angles during this time since Lucifer was created being. Kind of makes me wonder how the angles perceive time...

 

[Stripe]

Meh, this overview is loaded. I think mine was more unbiased though brought up my biased concerns. This is one is somewhat accurate but with more inaccuracies. It is a strictly OV-biased assessment.

Yeah, I'm biased.

Still, I don't think you'd be upset with every line. Afterall .. a few of them are AMR's own words...

 

[P8ntrDan]

Time IS the passing of events.What makes you think that the godhead did nothing prior to creation?

Was God in some sort of eternal sleep and suddenly just "popped" into action at creation???

God is the living God (that's how He describes Himself), therefore there is no reason to assume that God didn't think, act, fellowship, relate, act, or anything else that He chose to do prior to creation.

Time is the passing of events. Therefore, for time to exist, there has to be a first event. If God has always been, there never was a first event. Therefore, there was a time were time where time didn't exist (no pun intended). There was a 'time' where God simply was. Why not consider creation the beginning of time, especial since Genesis says "In the beginning, God created the heavens and the earth."?

 

[Lon]

Yeah, I'm biased.

Still, I don't think you'd be upset with every line. Afterall .. a few of them are AMR's own words...

Of course not, didn't I say so?

Blessings

 

[Stripe]

Of course not, didn't I say so?

Blessings

I can't keep track. You did upgrade "mischaracterisations" to "inaccuracies".

 

[Nathon Detroit]

Yes, come and join us. The coffee is great and I have learned several things from them. We all have things that we have always believed that we have never really questioned. Descussion like this make us look at some of those beliefs and see if they make sense in light of scripture. Come with a mind open to different points of view and a heart open to Christ and you will learn too! (You'll probably have fun while you're at it.)

I will admit that when I go back and read some of my posts (even in this thread) they come off a bit rude and arrogant. That isn't my intention I promise you. I don't think that I write very well. On second thought... I KNOW that I do not write very well. If we were talking in person I would do a much better job simply conversing with you. When it's just words on a screen there are no gestures, no sarcastic laughs, no indications of silliness, or friendly nudges etc. so it can appear that a post is different than it is intended.

 

[Nathon Detroit]

I don't think that God did nothing before creation. It seems that Satan challenged God during this time before creation and was cast down. Satan was in the garden maybe from the moment it was created.

I believe that the Bible describes Satan falling after he was placed in the garden. But that's another topic.

He probably created angles during this time since Lucifer was created being. Kind of makes me wonder how the angles perceive time...

And of course there was the fellowship within the godhead. So yes, I agree God certainly did things (whatever they might have been) prior to creation. Doesn't that indicate that there was time prior to creation?

 

[Nathon Detroit]

Time is the passing of events. Therefore, for time to exist, there has to be a first event. If God has always been, there never was a first event. Therefore, there was a time were time where time didn't exist (no pun intended). There was a 'time' where God simply was.

That is a lot to ponder. And it is true that God can overcome things that we cannot i.e., time passing eternally into the past.

Why not consider creation the beginning of time, especial since Genesis says "In the beginning, God created the heavens and the earth."?

Because we know that not everything was created at creation (Love, mercy, power, and so on). In fact we know specifically what was created at creation and time wasn't one of those things mentioned.

Why assume something from the text that is clearly NOT mentioned? :idunno:

The creation account is there for anyone to read. If God had created time (which is irrational i.e., how long did it take God to create time? :dizzy: ) I am sure He would have mentioned it in the creation account.