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Discussion thread: One on One: AMR and JCWR on the Temporality of God

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  • Originally posted by Delmar View Post
    800 years before anyone did it? Please show your work.
    Written approx. 1400 B.C.

    (Deut 18:10) There shall not be found among you any one that maketh his son or his daughter to pass through the fire, or that useth divination, or an observer of times, or an enchanter, or a witch.



    Written appox 627 - 585 B.C.

    Jeremiah 32:35 ‘And they built the high places of Baal which are in the Valley of the Son of Hinnom, to cause their sons and their daughters to pass through the fire to Molech, which I did not command them, nor did it come into My mind that they should do this abomination, to cause Judah to sin.

    Deut was written about 800 years before Jeremiah

    P.S. I'm still waiting for an open theist to tell me what "an observer of times" is as mentioned in the above Deut 18:10
    (1 Cor 1:13 KJV) Is Christ divided? was Paul crucified for you? or were ye baptized in the name of Paul?

    Comment


    • Originally posted by Knight View Post
      The above notion is simply not biblical. It may appeal the "theologians" who enjoy imagining such things but it simply isn't biblical.

      There are literally hundreds if not thousands of examples that we can read about in God's word that objectively prove that God doesn't stand outside of time looking at all future events as if they were present events.

      Let me give just one such example....
      Jeremiah 19:5 “(they have also built the high places of Baal, to burn their sons with fire for burnt offerings to Baal, which I did not command or speak, nor did it come into My mind),

      Jeremiah 32:35 ‘And they built the high places of Baal which are in the Valley of the Son of Hinnom, to cause their sons and their daughters to pass through the fire to Molech, which I did not command them, nor did it come into My mind that they should do this abomination, to cause Judah to sin.’
      God is clearly saying that there was a time (possibly before creation or at some point after creation) where it had not entered God's mind that people would be burning there own children as a sacrifice to a false idol.

      Now, either:

      A. God does not "see" all events into the future and therefore did not see such an evil being devised.

      or...

      B.
      God is lying and all of this was in fact in God's mind for an eternity past.

      Now...
      Prepare for 18 pounds of theological gobbledygook as a defense by the settled theists.
      You posted this knowing full well I have answered it in the past. My, what a provocateur you are, kind sir!

      The "did not come into my mind" is not read as a declarative sentence, but as an expression of rebuke. Just as someone would exclaim, "Well, I never thought you would do that!" when confronting outlandish behavior, it does not mean the person (or God) was clueless, just terribly annoyed at the behavior in view, expressing outrage and scandal.

      Now that is not 20lbs of theological mumbo-jumbo, just $0.02 of proper grammar instruction. You are reading into the text from a openist presupposition, plain and simple.
      Embedded links in my posts or in my sig below are included for a reason. Tolle Lege.



      Do you confess?
      Founder, Reformed Theology Institute
      AMR's Randomata Blog
      Learn Reformed Doctrine
      I fear explanations explanatory of things explained.
      Christian, catholic, Calvinist, confessional, Presbyterian (PCA).
      Lex orandi, lex credenda: everyone is a Calvinist on their knees.
      The best TOL Social Group: here.
      If your username appears in blue and you have over 500 posts:
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      Comment


      • Originally posted by Knight View Post
        Judges 14:4 But his father and mother did not know that it was of the LORD — that He was seeking an occasion to move against the Philistines. For at that time the Philistines had dominion over Israel.

        God says He was seeking an occasion, i.e., God was looking for the right moment to interact. Yet the settled theist is forced to believe that is a lie. After all, according to the settled theist God knows all occasions for all of time and has known eternally when He would move (which by the way is impossible for those who believe God is immutable).

        Just one (more) of hundreds of clear examples.
        More presuppositional reading into the text. Sampson was a tool, God's tool. The way to read this text is as the HCSB renders it:

        His father and mother didn’t realize the Lord was at work in this, creating an opportunity to work against the Philistines, who ruled over Israel at that time.

        I could do this all day.
        Embedded links in my posts or in my sig below are included for a reason. Tolle Lege.



        Do you confess?
        Founder, Reformed Theology Institute
        AMR's Randomata Blog
        Learn Reformed Doctrine
        I fear explanations explanatory of things explained.
        Christian, catholic, Calvinist, confessional, Presbyterian (PCA).
        Lex orandi, lex credenda: everyone is a Calvinist on their knees.
        The best TOL Social Group: here.
        If your username appears in blue and you have over 500 posts:
        Why?


        Comment


        • Originally posted by Ask Mr. Religion View Post
          You posted this knowing full well I have answered it in the past. My, what a provocateur you are, kind sir!
          The universe (especially the TOL universe) does not revolve around you AMR, I am not compelled by your answer(s). (heck I rarely if ever read your posts, no offense)
          Also be sure to.... Join TOL on Facebook | Follow TOL on Twitter
          TOL Newbies CLICK HERE or....upgrade your TOL today!

          Comment


          • Originally posted by Ask Mr. Religion View Post
            More presuppositional reading into the text. Sampson was a tool, God's tool. The way to read this text is as the HCSB renders it:

            His father and mother didn’t realize the Lord was at work in this, creating an opportunity to work against the Philistines, who ruled over Israel at that time.
            Speaking of tools.

            I could do this all day.
            What? Give lame answers to arguments that obliterate your position? Why would you want to do that all day?
            Also be sure to.... Join TOL on Facebook | Follow TOL on Twitter
            TOL Newbies CLICK HERE or....upgrade your TOL today!

            Comment


            • Originally posted by CabinetMaker View Post
              It is speculation about the mysteries of God. It is not doctrinal and plays no role in whether a person is saved or not. It is nothing more than trying to come up model of something the Bible is silent on.

              I don't agree with Knight that time is part of God. I think time is something God created for us. And I don't agree that knowing what will happen in the future unchangeably settles that future. As I said, it is one of God's deeper mysteries for me.
              The Bible is not silent and it is the glory of a king to search out a matter. Claiming mystery can become an excuse for lazy thinking or justification for believing inaccurate things. The debate is beyond your interest and expertise, but it is important, though not essential.
              Know God and make Him known! (YWAM)

              They said: "Where is the God of Elijah?"
              I say: "Where are the Elijahs of God?" (Ravenhill "Why Revival Tarries")

              Rev. 1:17, 18; Jer. 9:23, 24

              "No Compromise!" (Keith Green)

              The Pledge: He died for me; I'll live for Him.

              Comment


              • Originally posted by Knight View Post
                Do you believe God (from His perspective) is still hanging on the cross? Or is that part of God's past?
                God has a history (His Story). He is not atemporal. Case closed.
                Know God and make Him known! (YWAM)

                They said: "Where is the God of Elijah?"
                I say: "Where are the Elijahs of God?" (Ravenhill "Why Revival Tarries")

                Rev. 1:17, 18; Jer. 9:23, 24

                "No Compromise!" (Keith Green)

                The Pledge: He died for me; I'll live for Him.

                Comment


                • Originally posted by Knight View Post
                  You must not know Bob very well. Bob is one of the most gracious, friendly guys you will ever meet.

                  How can you kick me out... of what is mine?



                  That isn't true. AMR has his own website and own following that would all have to change. AMR has as much if not more invested in his beliefs as I do I. And I am sure he would confirm this for you if you just asked.

                  And if I am dead wrong and AMR is dead right there isn't anything I can do about it. I was predestined for all eternity to be dead-wrong and there isn't you are AMR or anything else can do about it.

                  However... if I am right.... both of you are responsible for disparaging God's character by claiming that He is responsible for sin and wickedness while man can do nothing of himself.

                  Open theism rightly credits God for all that is good and man for all that is bad.

                  Settled theism wrongly credits God for all that is bad, and wrongly lets man off the hook for being responsible for his own actions. (settled theists claim man is responsible for his own actions but that is a hollow claim because what they really believe is that God is responsible for everything without exception).

                  Said in short.. as an open theist I am in a "win win" position, while you as a settled theist is in a "lose lose" situation (i.e., even if you are right what difference would it make?).

                  Because I am.

                  How do you answer a question like that?
                  Answered many many, many many times.

                  The answer? "OV does not escape the same accusation. It is not a 'denominationally' specific question AND furthermore, because OV REFUSES to acknowledge this, it MUST be asserted that it's answer is inadequate to task (and perhaps doesn't really understand the question at all in the first place). The indictment is against OV here by virtue of the repetitious and inadequate address. I see this not only as 'wrong-headed' but purposefully obtuse. I can be wrong in that assessment, but I'm perplexed that this has been explained and explained and explained.

                  I'm blue in the face.
                  My New Years Resolution: 1 Peter 3:15
                  Omniscient without man's qualification. John 1:3 "Nothing"
                  Colossians 1:17 "Nothing" John 15:5 "Nothing"
                  Mighty, ALL mighty (omnipotent). Revelation 1:8
                  No possible limitation Isaiah 40:25 Joshua 24:15
                  Infinite (Omnipresent) Psalm 145:3 Hebrews 4:13

                  ? Yep

                  Now to Him who is able to do exceeding abundantly above all that we ask or think... Amen. -Ephesians 3:20 & 21

                  ... when I became an adult, I set aside childish ways. Titus 3:10 Ephesians 4:29-32; 5:11

                  Separation of church and State is not atheism "We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights..."

                  Comment


                  • Originally posted by P8ntrDan View Post
                    So if time is described as the passing of events in sequential order, what was God's first event?
                    Uncreated Creator exists, without a first event in His being. He exists/is, period. His first event in relation to our universe is recorded in Gen. 1:1 (angelic creation is not mentioned, so timing uncertain). God has eternally fellowshipped in His triune relations. He is the First Cause of our universe, but an eternal being does not have a first event. This does not mean He is timeless, though.
                    Know God and make Him known! (YWAM)

                    They said: "Where is the God of Elijah?"
                    I say: "Where are the Elijahs of God?" (Ravenhill "Why Revival Tarries")

                    Rev. 1:17, 18; Jer. 9:23, 24

                    "No Compromise!" (Keith Green)

                    The Pledge: He died for me; I'll live for Him.

                    Comment


                    • Originally posted by CabinetMaker View Post
                      But that is time from our perspective which I am not convinced is the same as time from Gods perspective.
                      This is a logical issue relating to reality, contingencies, etc....it will get technical, so don't jump to conclusions unless you can wade into piles of academic detail for and against.
                      Know God and make Him known! (YWAM)

                      They said: "Where is the God of Elijah?"
                      I say: "Where are the Elijahs of God?" (Ravenhill "Why Revival Tarries")

                      Rev. 1:17, 18; Jer. 9:23, 24

                      "No Compromise!" (Keith Green)

                      The Pledge: He died for me; I'll live for Him.

                      Comment


                      • Originally posted by CabinetMaker View Post
                        Hmm. I suppose that it might be that He is. That would makes His sacrifice on the cross an eternal sacrifice that covers all of our sins.
                        AMR is wrong to think this is an issue in redemption. It is His death, not a timeless being, that is the issue. The atonement is not a literal payment (many assume it is), so wrong assumption leads to wrong conclusion.
                        Know God and make Him known! (YWAM)

                        They said: "Where is the God of Elijah?"
                        I say: "Where are the Elijahs of God?" (Ravenhill "Why Revival Tarries")

                        Rev. 1:17, 18; Jer. 9:23, 24

                        "No Compromise!" (Keith Green)

                        The Pledge: He died for me; I'll live for Him.

                        Comment


                        • Originally posted by Knight View Post

                          Proof-texting bias.
                          Originally posted by Knight View Post
                          Jeremiah 19:5 “(they have also built the high places of Baal, to burn their sons with fire for burnt offerings to Baal, which I did not command or speak, nor did it come into My mind),

                          Question: What can this obviously convey other than what you are suggesting and be completely true to the text?
                          Originally posted by Knight View Post
                          Jeremiah 32:35 ‘And they built the high places of Baal which are in the Valley of the Son of Hinnom, to cause their sons and their daughters to pass through the fire to Molech, which I did not command them, nor did it come into My mind that they should do this abomination, to cause Judah to sin.’
                          God is clearly saying that there was a time (possibly before creation or at some point after creation) where it had not entered God's mind that people would be burning there own children as a sacrifice to a false idol.
                          Again, there is a literal and very obvious answer than the one you are asserting. We all see it (I think). Don't you?
                          Now, either:

                          Originally posted by Knight View Post
                          A. God does not "see" all events into the future and therefore did not see such an evil being devised.

                          or...

                          B.
                          God is lying and all of this was in fact in God's mind for an eternity past.
                          Now...
                          Prepare for 18 pounds of theological gobbledygook as a defense by the settled theists.
                          I disagree. Is that 18 lbs?

                          Is there really no other apparent option? Really? Really??
                          My New Years Resolution: 1 Peter 3:15
                          Omniscient without man's qualification. John 1:3 "Nothing"
                          Colossians 1:17 "Nothing" John 15:5 "Nothing"
                          Mighty, ALL mighty (omnipotent). Revelation 1:8
                          No possible limitation Isaiah 40:25 Joshua 24:15
                          Infinite (Omnipresent) Psalm 145:3 Hebrews 4:13

                          ? Yep

                          Now to Him who is able to do exceeding abundantly above all that we ask or think... Amen. -Ephesians 3:20 & 21

                          ... when I became an adult, I set aside childish ways. Titus 3:10 Ephesians 4:29-32; 5:11

                          Separation of church and State is not atheism "We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights..."

                          Comment


                          • Originally posted by CabinetMaker View Post
                            For us, time flows from moment to moment. We cannot go to the past and redo things nor can we skip to the future to see what happens. I do not think that God is bound by that aspect time.
                            The past, present, future is also real to God (Rev. 1:4 uses tensed expressions about Him). An event is either real or not. It cannot be real for God and unreal for us if it is the same event (logical contradiction). Either we exist or we do not exist. We cannot exist in God's eternity, but not in our time. Our realities are parallel and the same, though God does not have the same limitations because He is omnipotent, omniscient, and omnipresent (but he need not be timeless and is not if He is personal). Either the future exists in advance or it does not. God knows reality as it is. Our future choices cannot already be there to know if they are not made yet. We cannot exist in the future if we never come to exist. If our choices existed before we did for God to see, then we did not make them and determinism is true (which it is not in light of self-evident free will). We make the choices, not God. Theories on 4th dimensions are sci-fi, not a way to make the incoherent logical or factual.
                            Know God and make Him known! (YWAM)

                            They said: "Where is the God of Elijah?"
                            I say: "Where are the Elijahs of God?" (Ravenhill "Why Revival Tarries")

                            Rev. 1:17, 18; Jer. 9:23, 24

                            "No Compromise!" (Keith Green)

                            The Pledge: He died for me; I'll live for Him.

                            Comment


                            • Originally posted by CabinetMaker View Post
                              It is finished. But if God can back and forth in time, or least see back into time, then God can still see Jesus on the cross even though through the flow of time, He is not.

                              You are talking about memory like any history book or Bible has, not reality. Time is unidirectional. An omnipotent being cannot go back in time to change it. It is only a memory. The future is also not a place or thing one can be in. It is not yet. It is possible, imagination, not reality to be known as certain before it happens. The potential future becomes the fixed past through the present. Eternal now simultaneity is false philosophy, not scientific or biblical truth.
                              Know God and make Him known! (YWAM)

                              They said: "Where is the God of Elijah?"
                              I say: "Where are the Elijahs of God?" (Ravenhill "Why Revival Tarries")

                              Rev. 1:17, 18; Jer. 9:23, 24

                              "No Compromise!" (Keith Green)

                              The Pledge: He died for me; I'll live for Him.

                              Comment


                              • Originally posted by Knight View Post
                                Time IS the passing of events.What makes you think that the godhead did nothing prior to creation?

                                Was God in some sort of eternal sleep and suddenly just "popped" into action at creation???

                                God is the living God (that's how He describes Himself), therefore there is no reason to assume that God didn't think, act, fellowship, relate, act, or anything else that He chose to do prior to creation.
                                Love, relationship, fellowship, communication, thinking, feeling, etc. is eternal because God is triune (not so if He is solitary like Allah).
                                Know God and make Him known! (YWAM)

                                They said: "Where is the God of Elijah?"
                                I say: "Where are the Elijahs of God?" (Ravenhill "Why Revival Tarries")

                                Rev. 1:17, 18; Jer. 9:23, 24

                                "No Compromise!" (Keith Green)

                                The Pledge: He died for me; I'll live for Him.

                                Comment

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