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  • #46
    LOL, Mike!

    Hey, that was certainly a good point made about the FULFILLED prophecy in Zech! How can anyone deny it's fulfillment, since scripture itself affirms it!



    Revelation 22
    14 Blessed are they that do his commandments, that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city.

    15 For without are dogs, and sorcerers, and whoremongers, and murderers, and idolaters, and whosoever loveth and maketh a lie.

    Comment


    • #47
      So Jerry, did God fight for true Jerusalem in 70AD, the one Paul spake of in Galatians 3 and 4, against the COUNTERFEIT Jerusalem that then was, who was HAGAR AND ISHMAEL, or not? Did He judge them as Daniel prophecied He would: "and for the overspreading of abominations HE shall make IT (Jerusalem that KILLED CHRIST) DESOLATE, even unto the consumation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate"? Didn't He DETERMINE to desolate Jerusalem for her many abominations: the MURDERS of all the prophets, including the Messiah and His Apostles? Didn't Jesus tell them in Matt 23, "Behold, your house is left unto you DESOLATE"?

      It wasn't Jerusalem the CHURCH who had killed the prophets, it was HAGAR AND ISHMAEL, the FLESHLY Jerusalem who had! This is the Jerusalem that God fough FOR or against, Jerry? Which was it?



      Revelation 22
      14 Blessed are they that do his commandments, that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city.

      15 For without are dogs, and sorcerers, and whoremongers, and murderers, and idolaters, and whosoever loveth and maketh a lie.

      Comment


      • #48
        he he he, I know brother, only a Futurist could deny such things and why not, they deny Jesus by saying antichrist shall fulfill Daniel 9:27 and the 70 weeks.

        Goes to show the Scriptures are alive:

        2Th:2:11: And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie:

        As much as I'd like to, to call futurists brothers and sisters based on the common salvation, I cannot. As I reminisce of the days when I held such lies I cannot see myself as being a brother to anyone let alone a child of God, but rather a child of the devil the father of lies, and a brother to other liars who followed their father, waiting for the imminent appearing of.......<drum roll please> ANTICHRIST.

        Such is not the way of God's children! How dare anyone say that it is!
        Oh man, would ya look at this...we got alot of work to do!

        Comment


        • #49
          amen

          How can a brother or sister call those who hold "another gospel" such as futurism a brother in Christ? Are these heresies just some minor detail like eating or not eating meat?? I DON'T THINK SO!

          If you choose to be a vegetarian that's not quite the same as perverting the gospel, and saying that an antichrist will fulfill what Christ already has!

          It's certainly not on the same level as calling HAGAR and Ismael "God's chosen people" who will inherit the promises, while denying that the only people who are chosen of God are those who show faith in Jesus Christ!

          It's not the same as saying that many prophecies aren't yet fulfilled that ARE.

          It's not like making the claim that the way of salvation isn't even shown in the gospels!

          It's nothing like saying that there was one gospel for the Jew, and another gospel for the gentiles!

          It's not like promising the unbelieving, Christ hating Jew that he will be saved the day Jesus appears in the sky!


          NONE of the heresies above would have been tolerated by any of the Apostles of Christ like we see them tolerted in the churches today! Paul would have said of disps and futurists: "LET THEM BE ACCURSED", not, "Him that is weak in the faith receive ye, but don't judge his doubtfull thoughts" or "Judge not, judge not", like we hear so many in today's churches chanting! He would rather that they be CUT OFF, because such evil doctrines cause people to FALL FROM GRACE by making Christ and all the prophecies concerning Him and His Kingdom of none effect!! To take such heresies lightly and claim that those that hold them are "brethren in Christ" is to deny that they are heretics.

          Look, even the Catholic church believes in the Trinity. Does that make Catholics "brothers and sisters" in Jesus? I THINK NOT! So where do we draw the line? How can we think we're not just another spineless ecumenical if we embrace every heretic that believes in the Trinity? Is THAT the ultimate scriptural test of who our brethren are? I don't think so!!

          Jesus said "Man shall not live by bread alone, but by EVERY WORD OF GOD".

          Rev 22:18,19 says that anyone who adds to or takes away from God's Word will LOSE HIS SALVATION!



          Revelation 22
          14 Blessed are they that do his commandments, that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city.

          15 For without are dogs, and sorcerers, and whoremongers, and murderers, and idolaters, and whosoever loveth and maketh a lie.

          Comment


          • #50
            Salvation is a WALK of faith. We've got to ENDURE sound doctrine to the END. If we're not walking in the light, and forsaking every dark and false doctrine as we go, then we are not on the narrow road, and we aren't striving to enter in. If we're not dilligently ADDING to our faith by prayer and searching the scripture, and being willing to hear sound doctrine regardless of where it comes from (even if we may HATE who gives it!), then the only other road is that of disobedience and pride. That road leads to destruction, and many are on that road who THINK they are saved and can't ever lose it. They are DECEIVED by men who have taught them that the day of Christ will come BEFORE the man of sin is revealed. Paul explicity warned of such false teachers, and said if the church fails to TAKE HEED to his warnings that God Himself would send them strong delusion, that they would believe such a lie, and be DAMNED. So HOW can we call them "brethren" who embrace THAT VERY LIE?



            Revelation 22
            14 Blessed are they that do his commandments, that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city.

            15 For without are dogs, and sorcerers, and whoremongers, and murderers, and idolaters, and whosoever loveth and maketh a lie.

            Comment


            • #51
              Jerusalem on the earth

              Rev717,

              First of all,I cannot agree with you that the "Jerusalem" in the prophecies of Zechariah refer to the "heavenly Jerusalem".

              Zechariah SPECIFICALLY says that "the Lord shall be King over all the EARTH"(Zech.14:9).

              We also see thatmany nations will "go up from year to year to worship the King,the Lord of hosts,and to keep the feast of the tabernacles.And it shall be that whoever will not come up of the families OF THE EARTH unto Jerusalem to worship the King,the Lord of hosts,even upon them shall be no rain"(Zech.14:16,17).

              This is about the Jerusalem that exists on THE EARTH.

              And how can you say that all of Daniel´s prophecy concerning the 70 Weeks have been fulfilled?Do you really believe that EVERLASTING RIGHTEOUSNESS has been brought into Jerusalem?:

              "Seventy weeks are determined upon thy people and upon thy holy city,to finish the transgression,and to make an end of sins,and to make reconciliation for iniquity,and to bring in EVERLASTING RIGHTEOUSNESS,and to seal up the vision and prophecy,and to annoint the most Holy"(Dan.9:24).

              That verse has not yet come to pass.Anyone who reads the newspapers know that everlasting righteousness has not been brought unto Daniel´s city,Jerusalem.

              In His grace,--Jerry

              Comment


              • #52
                rapt,

                We are "justified by faith",but the "faith" that is spoken of is not faith in the teachings of man.It is not the "faith" that you have where you pick and choose which part of Scripture you will believe.

                You have proven over and over that you place a great amount of faith in the doctrines of men,and you have also proven over and over that you put the teaching of man over the plain word of Scripture.

                Here is the way that you pour contempt on the Holy Scriptures in order to defend the teaching of man.Since you cannot answer how the Lord Jesus "destroyed all the nations that came against Jerusalem"(Zech.12:9) in AD70,you attempt to "spiritualize" the meaning of "Jerusalem",and make it the "heavenly Jerusalem".

                But that is not the truth.We can see that Zechariah is speaking of the "earthly" Jerusalem.We reade that the Lord shall be King OVER ALL THE EARTH!

                We read that "it shall be that whoever will not come up of all the families OF THE EARTH to Jerusalem to worship the King,the Lord of hosts,even upon them shall be no rain"(Zech.14:16).

                You see,rapt,the words could not be plainer.Zechariah is not speaking of the "heavenly Jerusalem",but instead the Jerusalem that is on THE EARTH.

                But since this does not fit the doctrines of men that you believe,you must ignore all the words that refer to THE EARTH.Again,you just close your eyes when Scripture does not match the only thing you believe--the doctrines of man.

                And why will not any of you who support Dee Dee answer the verses about the things that will happen at the "end of the age"?

                All of you,including Dee Dee will just not provide an intelligent reply,and we all know why.There is no answer that you can provide that does not conflkict with Dee Dee´s teaching.

                In His grace,--Jerry
                Last edited by Jerry Shugart; September 16th, 2002, 08:49 AM.

                Comment


                • #53
                  Nice spin Dr. Jerry, but I have answered your points, and you have yet to answer any of the numerous points I posted in my last post in the Battle. And those were just the major ones, but like I said, in addition, I would still like to know how wooden javelins are going to be used in Armegeddon.... Will they be carried in the right or left hand of the horseback riders?

                  Comment


                  • #54
                    All of you,including Dee Dee will just not provide an intelligent reply,and we all know why.
                    Yes, because I am an idiot oh, and according to Jerry I hate God too,let's not forget that. Hmmmm......

                    There is no answer that you can provide that does not conflkict with Dee Dee´s teaching.
                    LOLOLOL!!! Okay, Rapt, Jerry has spoken. Repent immediately of everything you think about Revelation that is in stark opposition to what I hold. LOL!!

                    Comment


                    • #55
                      ALL things that offend

                      Dee Dee,

                      You made a feeble attempt to answer my points regarding the parable of the "tares and wheat",but I would say that your answer is WRONG!!

                      You say that this parable is only about God´s judgment on the Jews,but that is not what the Scriptures say.But you must again DENY the plain words of Scripture so that you can cling to your mistaken idea.

                      Again,the Lord says that the "field is the WORLD",which you say refers to the Roman Empire.

                      "The kingdom of heaven is likened unto a man who sowed good seed in his field;But,while men slept,the enemy came and sowed tares among the wheat,and went his way"(Mt.13:24,25).

                      This refers to the words of the Lord that "the gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in all the world"(Mt.24:14).And at the same time that this happens,we see that the enemy "sowed tares" among those who received the gospel.So in all the Roman Empire we see that there are both tares and wheat,believers and unbelievers.

                      The Lord continues His parable:

                      "Let them both grow together until the harvest;and in the time of the harvest I will say to the reapers,Gather together first the tares,and bind them in bundles to burn them,but gather the wheat into my barn"(Mt.13:30).

                      We see that the "tares" of "the field",or the "unrighteous" of the RomanEmpire,are to be gathered together and burned.

                      Dee Dee,this is not just about gathering together only the "tares" from Israel,but instead all the tares from the Roman Empire.

                      "As,therefore,the tares are gathered and burned in the fire,so shall it be in the end of this age.The Son of Man shall send forth His angels,and they shall gather out of His Kingdom ALL THINGS THAT OFFEND,and them who do iniquity"(Mt.13:40,41).

                      Dee Dee,please read the WORDS OF THE LORD.They do not match your teaching.You say that it is not ALL the "tares" that will be gathered out,but instead you teach that the judgment is only about the "unrighteous" Jews.

                      The words of the Lord cannot be any plainer,but since they conflict with your teaching you choose to pervert His words in order to attempt to make them fit your ideas.

                      Now perhaps you will finally deal with this parable AS IT IS WRITTEN!

                      In His grace,--Jerry

                      Comment


                      • #56
                        Asked and answered at the links previously provided. Now perhaps you will answer some questions such as the intractable one I posed to you with my answer and harmonize the whole counsel of God. Oh, then I woke up.

                        Comment


                        • #57
                          Dee Dee,

                          According to you it is not ALL of the "unrighteous" in the Roman Empire who will be gathered out of His kingdom,but instead only the "unrighteous" that are in Israel.

                          The Lord Jesus Himself says in no uncertain terms that ALL of the things that offend will be gathered out of His kingdom.Do you think that the Lord Jesus is wrong,and you are right?

                          I do not blame you for not wanting to address these verses since they demonstrate that your teaching is in error.But you agreed to debate these issues.You just cannot just flee from the Scriptures that do not match your teaching,as this parable surely does.

                          The words of the Lord cannot be any plainer.And it is equally clear that His words condemns your false teaching.You only prove again that when the Lord´s wordsdo not match your teaching you will not hesitate to attempt to change the very meaning of the Lord´s words or to ignore His words.

                          In His grace,--Jerry

                          Comment


                          • #58
                            Asked and answered on the links already provided. And by the way, there were a few questions for you in my response. Oh, that's right Jerry doesn't answer questions, he only asks them.... I see.

                            Comment


                            • #59
                              SOME does not equal ALL

                              Dee Dee,

                              You are in denial.The words of the Lord do not match your false theology.According to you,this parable of the "tares and wheat" is "teaching about the inaguration of the kingdom,with judgment beginning with God´s OT people and the outworking of His progressive redemption and judgment."

                              But as I have repeatedly demonstrated,this parable is not just about the judgment of God´s OT people,but instead about the God´s judgment in the whole world (which you say is the Roman Empire).

                              And we know that God´s judgment did not reach all the "unrighteous" in AD70,so you must deny the plain words of the Lord so that you can continue to spread your false teahing.

                              The Lord Jesus Christ said:

                              "The field is the world;the good seed are the children of the kingdom,but the tares are the children of the wicked one;

                              "The enemy that soweth them is the devil;the harvest is the end of the age;and the reapers are the angels.

                              "As,therefore,the tares are gathered and burned in the fire,so shall it be in the end of this age.

                              "The Son of Man shall send forth His angels,and they shall GATHER OUT OF HIS KINGDOM ALL THINGS THAT OIFFEND,and them who do iniquity,

                              "And shall cast them into a furnace of fire;there shall be wailing and gnashing of teeth"(Mt.13:38-42).

                              Dee Dee,once again I will ask you.Why should we believe you when you say that the judgment is only for the Jews while the Lord Himself states that ALL THINGS THAT OFFEND will be gathered out of His kingdom when it is inagurated?

                              Can you not grasp the concept that SOME does not equal ALL?

                              In His grace,--Jerry

                              Comment


                              • #60
                                Asked and answered already in the link already provided. When do you start answering questions?? Oh silly me, what an idiotic thing to ask Jerry to do.

                                Mark 1:5 - Then ALL the land of Judea and those from Jerusalem went out to him and were ALL baptized by Him in the Jordan.....

                                John was busy boy.

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