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1013

Post Modern Fundamentalist
If I do a battle royal, I'll spell out what I mean by Gospel. If I don't, I'll make a thread on this in the exclusively christian forum, (actually, since it concerns the heathen, I'd put it there as well).

I have been aware that we essentially agreed on this.
 

asi66

New member
The Trinity

The Trinity

I am interested in a one-on-one debate regarding whether or not the Bible teaches the Trinity. I was once a Trinitarian, but now I am not. I was not persuaded to abandon my Trinitarian background by any "heretical" movement. I actually began to study apologetics and sought to defend the doctrine against "heresy." After a time, I became frustrated with the doctrine for several reasons. Since that time, I have written a book on the subject, and now I would like to discuss the matter would someone else. I would appriciate it if I was not harassed or called inappropriate names.
Trust me, I would not have renounced a comfortable "orthodox" view for an uncomfortable "heretical" view if my objective studies had not led me to do so. I have examined the arguments for both sides and I have compared everything with Scripture. I am satisfied with my conclusion, but if I can be shown to be wrong, then I will willingly return to my former belief.
I find the Scripture to teach that the Father is God Almighty only. Jesus is the Son of God, our Messiah. And the Holy Spirit is God's Spirit (His mind and power at work).
If there is anyone out there willing to debate intelligently, I would appriciate that. Thank you.
In grace, BJ Brown
 

Gavin

New member
I would be up for a debate on the trinity, if no one else wants it. My view, which I believe is fully representative of the orthodox view, is that the ONE God eternally co-exists in three persons - Father, Son, and Holy Spirit. Jesus and the Holy Spirit are fully God.

I will try to refrain from any name-calling, as well.:)
 

asi66

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Re: The Trinity

Re: The Trinity

Sounds great Gavin. How do we officially square off? (I'm new to these forums) Just let me know the when and how.
 

Gavin

New member
Dear BJ,

If you want to do an official battle royale concerning it, you can read the rules here. http://www.theologyonline.com/vbulletin/showthread.php?s=&threadid=2629

In any case, it will need to be approved by Knight first. Probably it will be suggested that you engage in a little informal debate before you do an official one, although you seem to have thought through the issue pretty thoroughly already!

I must warn you that over the holidays I travel to my parents house and do not have access to a computer. The earliest I could begin a debate on this is around January 10.

Also, if you don't mind, could you please specify exactly what you believe about Jesus. Was he a created being?

And my other question is whether you accept this as the resolution of this debate: "Scripture teaches the triune nature of God."

By "Scripture teaches" I mean that AT LEAST it is deducible from Scriptural principles, if not explicitly taught by specific sayings of Scripture. I am assuming from your earlier post that you believe in SOLA SCRIPTURA, correct me if I am wrong.
And by the "the triune nature of God" I simply mean the historical definition of the trinity. The one God co-eternally exists in three persons - Father, Son, Holy Ghost.

Can you confirm this?

Blessings.
 
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cirisme

Guest
Are we finally gonna get another great BR?

This will be great! :)
 

pereynol

New member
I like to debate. I'm not sure just what topic I'd like to debate; mostly I'm a pretty irenic person. I think the gist of the matter is that I'd like my postin' pseudonym on a T-shirt one day.


Ah, dreams...
 

Gavin

New member
Why do you have that Sartre quote on your signiture?

Existentialism is a reprehensible and extremely damaging philosophy, in my opinion, but I do find this quote kind of interesting.

(Note - finding something interesting is not equivalent to agreeing with it.)
 

pereynol

New member
Ah, does essence really preceed existence, or existence essence?

(How 'bout that human faculty of will...)
 

asi66

New member
Debate on the Trinity

Debate on the Trinity

Gavin, I can be patient. I too will be visiting family during that time, so that is convenient for me as well.
As far as "informal" debating goes, I have placed my argument before several interested Trinitarian friends (most of them Bible students) as well as discused the matter with some more established Trinitarians. I'm actually well versed in formal debate (six years speech and debate in middle school and high school; I was also the president for a time). I feel adequately prepared for a "Battle Royale" debate on the Trinity (as defined by the Athanasian Creed). All I lack is a firm understanding of the rules (I can obtain that well before January).

After careful consideration, I have found the Bible to teach that the Father alone is the one God of Israel (YHWH). His Son Jesus had no antenatal existence and was in fact a created being just as I am. In spite of his total humanity, Jesus was chosen by God before the foundation of the world to act as the teacher, the prophet, the high priest, the Davidic king, the savior, and the sacrifice. Jesus was God's plenipotentiary on earth (similar to the angel mentioned in Exodus 23:20-26). This means that Jesus, as God's representative, could act as God without being God (compare Ex. 3:2 with the rest of the passage). (NOTE: By quoting Exodus, I am only making a comparison between the angelic representatives of God and the Son of man as a representative of God- I am by no means equating Jesus with the angels referred to in such passages)
The Holy Spirit is God's mind and power at work. It is not a separate cognitive and conscious person.

This is my conclusion from my studies. In grace, BJ Brown
 

Gavin

New member
Thanks for your patience, BJ.

So can you confirm this?
And my other question is whether you accept this as the resolution of this debate: "Scripture teaches the triune nature of God."

By "Scripture teaches" I mean that AT LEAST it is deducible from Scriptural principles, if not explicitly taught by specific sayings of Scripture. I am assuming from your earlier post that you believe in SOLA SCRIPTURA, correct me if I am wrong.
And by the "the triune nature of God" I simply mean the historical definition of the trinity. The one God co-eternally exists in three persons - Father, Son, Holy Ghost.

Can you confirm this?

NB - I am not using the athanasian creed to define the trinity, I am simply using the historical definition as defined above. I believe the athanasian creed is in harmony with the definition I have provided, but I just wanted to make this clear so the terms will be clearly defined going into the debate. Does this resolution sound good to you?

Thanks.
 

asi66

New member
I'm sorry...

I'm sorry...

I forgot to answer one or two of your questions.

You asked:

And my other question is whether you accept this as the resolution of this debate: "Scripture teaches the triune nature of God."

By "Scripture teaches" I mean that AT LEAST it is deducible from Scriptural principles, if not explicitly taught by specific sayings of Scripture. I am assuming from your earlier post that you believe in SOLA SCRIPTURA, correct me if I am wrong.

My reply:

"Scripture teaches the triune nature of God" is perfect, with you posing as the affirmative and I as the negative.

I honestly believe that the doctrine of the Trinity CAN in fact "at least" be deduced from the Scriptures (as there are so many studious people who are Trinitarians). However, doing so would forsake hemeneutic principles, the Hebraic milieu of the Scriptures, and the true definitions of certain Hebrew and Greek words (as translations are mere interpretations).

And I do find the Bible to be the only reliable source for biblical doctrine. In any case, this information would be unnecessary to our debate since our agreed resolution is "Scripture teaches the triune nature of God;" in other words, our question is whether or not Scripture alone teaches the triune nature of God- appeals to church tradition, etc., are superfluous.
 

asi66

New member
Athanasian Creed...

Athanasian Creed...

I understand. We will argue from the definition you have presented. One question I have: will you also be presenting the hypothesis that Jesus of Nazareth was "100% God and 100% man?" (i.e., the hypostatic union) Thanks.
 

Gavin

New member
One question I have: will you also be presenting the hypothesis that Jesus of Nazareth was "100% God and 100% man?" (i.e., the hypostatic union) Thanks.
Affirmative on the hypostatic union.

I will contact Knight and let you know about plans for a BR. Cool! :thumb:
 

AVmetro

BANNED
Banned
I understand. We will argue from the definition you have presented. One question I have: will you also be presenting the hypothesis that Jesus of Nazareth was "100% God and 100% man?" (i.e., the hypostatic union) Thanks.

Something about this sounds familar.
 

AVmetro

BANNED
Banned
Hello ais88 and God bless!-

Since that time, I have written a book on the subject, and now I would like to discuss the matter would someone else. I would appriciate it if I was not harassed or called inappropriate names.

Would I be able to get/view this online? Thanks.
 
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