Discussion thread for: Battle Royale XIII

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genuineoriginal

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Round 4 - Part 1 - Team GG

In this round, team GG shows that their standard for not voting for McCain is solely the abortion issue.

Team GG begins with a subsitution of slavery for abortion in a number of the current abortion arguments to show the "pro-life" laws that have been passed fall short of being pro-life at all.

Team GG deals well with the questions from team NW and finally posts why voting for McCain is immoral:
Both teBoth teams agree that it is immoral to vote for a candidate who fits those criteria [about abortion policy]. If McCain doesn't fit, then we must acquit. If McCain does fit, then he is unfit and it would be immoral to vote for him. Simple.

Team GG addresses the argument that a vote for a third party candidate helps a worse candidate get elected because a third party candidate can't get enough votes to matter.

Team GG asks the following questions:
GGQ16: Does John McCain advocate that some "abortions should be legal?" (Note, this is a yes or no question, but after a yes-or-no, feel free to elaborate as always.)
GGQ17: Does John McCain advocate that women have a right to "choose" to have an abortion if they were raped or the child resulted from incest?
GGQ18: Do you believe McCain is the kind of man who will refuse to stand up for his principles in this area, who will go against his own views and work to criminalize something he believes should be legal? Or, conversely, do you believe McCain will likely use the authority of his presidential office to keep some abortion legal, including to sign bills into law that fund abortion for such things as rape and incest?
These three questions are trying to paint team NW in a corner regarding their prior statements about McCain's abortion policies.

GGQ19: A) Would you vote for that candidate? B) Would you vote for such a law as a senator?
(Concerning candidate running on platform to pass law to outlaw all abortions in exchange for a single intfanticide on a stone altar per year.)
This question is using the ad absurdium technique to make a point on where the moral line is drawn for abortion.
 

Clete

Truth Smacker
Silver Subscriber
Clete, you're still stuck in this fallacious, imaginary notion that there is even such a thing as a "non-viable candidate."
No, you're stuck in the Alan Keyes twilight zone.

Alan Keyes is incapable of winning election. It isn't unlikely that he will win it is impossible for him to win. That is the very definition of an unviable candidate.

Do you know what a non-viable candidate is? All candidates that lose on election day.
Every word you type gets me closer to finally concluding absolutely that I'm correct about this issue.

This might be the most ridiculous thing you've said during this entire debate.

Before that, every candidate is viable, because the only thing that will determine any one's success or failure is how many votes they get.
Not so.

If every single person in every state where Alan Keyes is on the ballot voted for Alan Keyes he still would not do anything but hand the country over to Obama. If every man woman and child were allowed to vote in all the states in which Keyes' name appears on the ballot and they all voted for him, he would still lose the election. He could get 500 times more votes than Barrack Obama and Barrack would still win the election.

Have you ever heard of the Electoral College?

The only thing evil needs to succeed is for good men to do nothing.
Precisely the reason why Christians shouldn't throw away their vote by staying home or casting it for a candidate that cannot win.

And if you do nothing to stand up for the right man for the job, just because you assume the other millions of people will also be too afraid to vote for him, is that an example of courage or... something else?
Its an example of clear thinking and an understanding of the reality of the situation we are in and how the electoral system in this country functions.

When you vote for the man you know is wrong for the job, just because you are afraid that everyone else will vote for him.... just like they're all afraid that you'll vote for the wrong man, too.... is that an example of personal courage? Or something else?
I am doing my best not to become angry but I'm fed up to my eye balls with being accused of being afraid of something. If I were the sort of person that was afraid I wouldn't be here strongly challenging the long held beliefs and practices of everyone on this site that I consider to be personal friends. I can guarantee you that I've got more at stake in this debate that you have. On this site and in this context you're the one who got it easy, you're the one who's got the home court advantage, you're the one who's surrounded by like minded people.
I'm the only one here sticking his neck out. I'm the one here risking relationships for the sake of getting to the truth. And so you'll excuse me if I find it more than a little bit personally insulting for you to accuse me of being afraid of anything. I consider Bob Enyart to be my pastor! Do you have the guts to challenge your pastor (and every other person you know in your church who agrees entirely with him) when you think he's making a mistake of this magnitude? That's basically what I'm doing on this issue so if you can convince me that I've made a mistake then great but I'm finished tolerating being belittled by you or anyone else on this issue. Either argue the issue rationally or make the choice to keep your opinions to yourself before you cause a problem that's not within your power to fix.

Non-viable nonsense. You presume to know an unwritten future based on fear, because everyone is afraid of what everyone else will do.
You aren't even familiar enough with the way elections work in this country to be qualified to speak on this topic! :bang:

The only presumption I am making is that the election will proceed in accordance with American election law.
Can't you see what a crazy illusion that is?
It isn't an illusion and I'm really am tired of being spoken too as though I'm stupid.

Alan Keyes CANNOT win this election under any circumstances no matter how many votes he gets.

Again, I ask you, Clete... What are you afraid of?
You really must never ask me this again. I'm not kidding.

What are you so worried about, that you would give your vote to a man whom you know wants to keep abortion legal?
Why don't you respond to the arguments I've made instead of assuming that there must be some emotional reason for my position? Are you capable of rebutting my arguments? If not, why not have the guts to say that you have no answer? I could respect that. I don't even require that you allow my arguments to persuade you. You can choose to remain unconvinced and still admit that you have no answer to my argument against your position. At least that would be honest!

My recommendation is that you do one of only two things...

1. Explain specifically how Keyes is not helping Obama win the state of Colorado's electoral votes.

2. Drop it entirely and let someone else address the argument.



Obama's new favorite quote of the day...
"The best weapon against an enemy is another enemy." - Friedrich Nietzsche

Resting in Him,
Clete
 

The Graphite

New member
Just read their post, and I can't even talk about it right now.... I'm incredulous. I'm going to bed, I have to sleep on it or I'll say something I'll regret.
 

chickenman

a-atheist
Gold Subscriber
LIFETIME MEMBER
Hall of Fame
You mean facts like the ones your statistics omit?

But without presenting all of the relevant statistics you paint a completely misleading picture of when the decline actually began.

I honestly don't understand the point of you posting ratios, WiF. I didn't skew anything at all. I simply posted what the stats say about total abortions. Ratios of x to y only attempt to pretty up the issue. Why not show an abortion:mosquito infestation ratio. Or abortion:national debt. Then we'll really see some strong declines that make the Republicans look good.

You shouldn't try to pretty up the ugly part of this serious issue, WiF.
 

WandererInFog

New member
I honestly don't understand the point of you posting ratios, WiF. I didn't skew anything at all. I simply posted what the stats say about total abortions. Ratios of x to y only attempt to pretty up the issue. Why not show an abortion:mosquito infestation ratio. Or abortion:national debt. Then we'll really see some strong declines that make the Republicans look good.

You shouldn't try to pretty up the ugly part of this serious issue, WiF.

Because the actual numbers fail to properly represent when the trend shifted. When the rate drops it means that in any given case, it had become less likely that a woman will have an abortion. Since we have an ever increasingly population, a reduction in the aggregate number of abortions wouldn't happen until after the rate had begun to decline substantially for several years.
 

Lighthouse

The Dark Knight
Gold Subscriber
Hall of Fame
Yes, lets take a look:
Genesis 38:8-10
8 Then Judah said to Onan, "Lie with your brother's wife and fulfill your duty to her as a brother-in-law to produce offspring for your brother." 9 But Onan knew that the offspring would not be his; so whenever he lay with his brother's wife, he spilled his semen on the ground to keep from producing offspring for his brother. 10 What he did was wicked in the LORD's sight; so he put him to death also.


Since Onan was put to death by God because Onan refused to do what God had commanded him and not specifically for practicing contraception, I would conclude that God sees abortion as a sin and contriception is not. God does not say that people should die for both.
You're going to have to use something other than that set of verses to prove the point you are attempting to make. This could be interpreted either way without some more Scripture to interpret it in light of.

Agreed!

I understand that my current position on this has to be driving a lot of people nuts. Let me just assure everyone involved that I am not entrenched here on this issue. It wasn't two months ago that I was 100% in agreement with the "Don't vote for the lesser of two evils." side of this debate. I can be back there just as quickly. And, in fact, the only reason I'm not still there now is because no one has yet been able to refute my own argument against it! I can't very well cling to a position that I've detected a major problem with that no one is able to remedy.

It is the truthful and righteous positions that have the irrefutable arguments, not falsehoods and foolishness. My allegiance is to the truth, not to any one person, group, doctrine or practice. If I'm wrong then I want someone to show me that I'm wrong but they will have to show me, not simply state repeatedly that I'm wrong and they're right.

At any rate, I know that this is an emotional issue. Indeed, it is issues such as this one that cause people are regularly advise others not to discuss religion or politics. And so, I will commit to sticking to the specific issue and to keeping personal comments out of it, and I'll also make every effort to over look when someone else fails to do the same. I have absolutely no desire to make an enemy of any of you guys.

Resting in Him,
Clete
OK, I apologize for all the rigmarole of the last encounter we had on this subject. And while I still do not believe that not voting for McCain helps Obama in any way, it also does not harm his campaign in any way. Not unless enough people do it. And the bottom line is that anyone who is voting for a third party knows that their candidate is not going to win. We don't care. And since we don't want either of the two main candidates in the seat, but we know one of them will be, we don't actually care which one of them it is. Neither one of them is better than the other one.

GFW sent me this the other day, and I just about plotzed. :rotfl:

Homer Simpson navigates the difficult dilemmas of voting



And yes, it's worth the 7 minutes to get to the punchline, which is priceless! :up:
But is it worth the almost 8 minutes, plus the load time?;)

Nor has the Democratic Party. Nor has any third party. Nor have your votes nor mine.
No third party has ever been in the White House since abortion was made legal.
 

genuineoriginal

New member
When you can explain to me how voting for a non-viable candidate doesn't help the worse of two evils then I'll accept this as valid. Until then I will maintain that you're cutting off your nose to spite your face.


Obama's new favorite quote of the day...
"The best weapon against an enemy is another enemy." - Friedrich Nietzsche

Resting in Him,
Clete

I can't see how voting Republican has helped at all.
This country does not need two liberal parties and no conservative alternatives.

If you insist on winning the battle (current election) then you are throwing away the war (future of country).
If you want to keep voting for progressively liberal Republicans, then you are the one cutting off your nose to spite your face.
 

Clete

Truth Smacker
Silver Subscriber
I can't see how voting Republican has helped at all.
Is it your supposition that the Democratic candidate in this election is not worse than the Republican candidate?

You'll have to prove that one. Personally I believe that to be a completely indefensible position but if you want to make an attempt at proving this unsubstantiated claim then I'll read it otherwise my response is simply that saying it doesn't make it so.

This country does not need two liberal parties and no conservative alternatives.
Irrelevant! The reality is that this country has exactly that.

If you insist on winning the battle (current election) then you are throwing away the war (future of country).
The future of this country is total depravity and abject failure. The only question is how long is it going to take to get there.

If you want to keep voting for progressively liberal Republicans, then you are the one cutting off your nose to spite your face.
If that were the case it seems to me that you guys could and would respond to my arguments rather than sitting here repeating yourselves with one emotional bit of rhetoric after another.


The simple fact of the matter is you live in an evil country that is going to elect and evil man as President. The decision you have to make is simple. Are you going to make it harder for the most evil candidate to win or are you going to either not vote at all or else cast a vote for a man who hasn't the slightest chance of winning thereby making it easier for the most evil man to win?

Is it going to get worse or is it going to get a lot worse.

That's the choice you have this election cycle and there is NOT a third alternative! If you think otherwise then prove it or admit that you cannot. It really is that simple and I am frankly not interested in discussing anything else as it is all entirely irrelevant. Indeed, everything else you guys are saying is only serving to convince me that you cannot answer the argument and that I've discovered a fatal flaw in the whole line of thinking.

Resting in Him,
Clete
 

The Graphite

New member
Which alien would Clete vote for?

Don't waste your vote!!!!! :darwinsm:
Well, Kodos has a 40 lashes policy, whereas his opponent Kang has a very lenient ceiling of 39 lashes.

I anticipate that Clete will vote for Kang. :thumb:


Vote Kang! We need more Kang judges on the bench! A vote for Keyes is a vote for Kodos! :alien:
 

Clete

Truth Smacker
Silver Subscriber
I wonder how long it will be before anyone gets a pair of nuts and responds to my argument with some substance?

Perhaps never? :think:





Politically, Alan Keyes the best friend Obama ever had!

Obama's new favorite quote of the day...
"The best weapon against an enemy is another enemy." - Friedrich Nietzsche
 
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