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Pilgrimagain
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It seems to be a comon trend here on TOL. People want "Scripture only" and don'ts ee the inconsistancy with making such a claim and then offering their own interpretation of scripture.
the POST GAME SHOW - Battle Royal I
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Pilgrimagain
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I guess the point is that the Bible does not exist in a vacuum and that since it is not an original autograph we need to have the community of faith talkinga bout it and interpreting it.
Evangelion
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That reminds me of a quote from a very wise man...
F. F. Bruce (M.A., D.D.), Evangelical Protestant:
People who adhere to sola scriptura (as they believe) often adhere in fact to a traditional school of interpretation of sola scriptura. Evangelical Protestants can be as much servants of tradition as Roman Catholics or Greek Orthodox Christians; only they don't realise that it is "tradition."
From Bruce's personal correspondence. (Late 20th Century.)
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Pilgrimagain
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hey, no copying posts! Well, on second thought, when it's that good go right ahead.
Evangelion
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It is a beauty, isn't it? I actually had to stop and think about it for a while when I first read it. Really makes you step back and take a long, hard look at your own epistemological system. :up:
Wow, I was gone and all that took place?
One point worth addressing....
I think I've fairly demonstrated my case well. Many prophesies within the NT from the OT in relation to Christ are of that nature...
Actually, many texts applied specifically to and prophecised as being specifically applied to YHWH in the future are applied to Christ. One of my responses to Anastasis [not posting till later] goes extensively into harmonization of OT and cross-references in the NT to demonstrate the application of YHWH to Christ.
God bless,
Jeremiah
One point worth addressing....
I think I've fairly demonstrated my case well. Many prophesies within the NT from the OT in relation to Christ are of that nature...
Actually, many texts applied specifically to and prophecised as being specifically applied to YHWH in the future are applied to Christ. One of my responses to Anastasis [not posting till later] goes extensively into harmonization of OT and cross-references in the NT to demonstrate the application of YHWH to Christ.
God bless,
Jeremiah
Evangelion
New member
Show me one place in the OT where Jesus is called Yahweh.
Evangelion
Evangelion
The below is my response to Anastasis concerning the title of The First and the Last". Only got part of it done as this only touches the tip of the iceburg.....but it will have to suffice. Remember to harmonize....Jn1:1 style..
************
First off I believe you misinterpreted 2Cor5:19…Howbeit I agree with you that the Father is in Christ as Christ is in the Father [John10:38]….However you’re logic is rather faulty. Read: John 14:20 “On that day you will realize that I am in my Father, and you are in me, and I am in you.” John 17:21 ”….that all of them may be one, Father, just as you are in me and I am in you. May they also be in us so that the world may believe that you have sent me.” Now according to your reasoning ‘being in’ someone, constitutes that person’s presence…hence your assumption that the Father will be ‘coming’ as he is ‘in’ Christ…However as you can see, according to this line of logic, the Father and Son are already here. The second coming must then have come at Pentecost…
….No. In the context of Revelations, ‘coming’ denotes the visible coming presence of Jesus Christ. Note: Rev1:7 “Look, he is coming with the clouds, and every eye will see him;….” Note the following:
Zech14:9 “Then YHWH will go out and fight against those nations, as he fights in the day of battle. On that day his feet will stand on the Mount of Olives, east of Jerusalem,…” Cf…Acts1:11-12 “…This same Jesus, who has been taken from you into heaven, will come back in the same way you have seen him go into heaven. Then they returned to Jerusalem from the hill called the Mount of Olives…”..cf..1Thess10 “..and to wait for his Son from heaven,….” (Note how it is Jesus who is said to come back..)…cf…Zech14:5 “Then YHWH will come and all his Holy ones with him”…cf…Rev19:11 “I saw heaven standing open and there before me was a white horse, whose rider is called Faithful and True. With justice he judges (cf..Joel 3:12.all nations...cf..Jn5:22) and makes war. His eyes are like blazing fire, an on his head are many crowns. He has a name written on himself that no one knows but he himself (cf Judges13:18/Is9:6-’Secret/Wonderful’..). He is dressed in a robe dipped in blood, and his name is the ‘Word of God’ (cf..Jn1:1,12). The armies of heaven were following Him, riding on white horses…”..cf.. Matthew 13:41"The Son of Man will send forth His angels, and they will gather out of His kingdom all stumbling blocks, and those who commit lawlessness, …”..cf.. Matthew 25:31
"But when [Matt 16:27f; 1 Thess 4:16; 2 Thess 1:7; Heb 9:28; Jude 14; Rev 1:7] the Son of Man comes in His glory, and all the angels with Him, then He will sit on His glorious throne”.cf.. 2 Thessalonians 1:7
and to give relief to you who are afflicted and to us as well [Luke 17:30] when the Lord Jesus will be revealed [1 Thess 4:16] from heaven [Jude 14] with His mighty angels [Ex 3:2; 19:18; Is 66:15; Ezek 1:13; Dan 7:9; Matt 25:41; 1 Cor 3:13; Heb 10:27; 12:29; 2 Pet 3:7; Jude 7; Rev 14:10] in flaming fire”...cf…Zech14:9 “The Lord will be King over the whole earth. On that day there will be one Lord, and His name the only name.”…cf…Rev11:15 “The kingdom of the world has become the kingdom of our Lord (1Cor8;6; Jude4) and his Christ, and he will reign for ever and ever (Note the dual reign, yet the singular pronoun…God is never referred to with ‘they’ or ‘them’ in Revelations….”..cf..Rev19:16 “On His robe and on His thigh he has this name written: KING OF KINGS AND LORD OF LORDS.”..i.e. over the whole earth (Ps10:16)…cf…Matt12:21 “In His name [Jesus] the nations put their hope.”..cf.. Matthew 24:9 " Then they will deliver you to tribulation, and will kill you, and you will be hated by all nations because of My name.”..cf.. John 1:12 But as many as received Him, to them He gave the right to become children of God, even to those who believe in His name,”..cf.. John 17:11 "I am no longer in the world; and yet they themselves are in the world, and I come to You. Holy Father, keep them in Your name, the name which You have given Me, that they may be one even as We are. Acts 4:12 "And there is salvation in no one else; for there is no other name under heaven that has been given among men by which we must be saved." ..cf.. Acts 8:12 But when they believed Philip preaching the good news about the kingdom of God and the name of Jesus Christ, they were being baptized, men and women alike.”..cf.. Acts 8:16 “For He had not yet fallen upon any of them; they had simply been baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus (cf..Matt28:19 ???)..cf..Phil2:9 “….and gave Him the name that is above every name, that at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, in heaven and on earth, and every tongue confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of the Father.”..cf.. Isaiah 4522 "Turn to me and be saved, all you ends of the earth; for I am God, and there is no other. my mouth has uttered in all integrity a word that will not be revoked: Before me every knee will bow; by me every tongue will swear. are righteousness and strength.' " …….
Through extensive harmonization we can see the it is Jesus who is YHWH who is ‘coming’…
God bless,
Jeremiah L.G.
Evangelion
The below is my response to Anastasis concerning the title of The First and the Last". Only got part of it done as this only touches the tip of the iceburg.....but it will have to suffice. Remember to harmonize....Jn1:1 style..
************
First off I believe you misinterpreted 2Cor5:19…Howbeit I agree with you that the Father is in Christ as Christ is in the Father [John10:38]….However you’re logic is rather faulty. Read: John 14:20 “On that day you will realize that I am in my Father, and you are in me, and I am in you.” John 17:21 ”….that all of them may be one, Father, just as you are in me and I am in you. May they also be in us so that the world may believe that you have sent me.” Now according to your reasoning ‘being in’ someone, constitutes that person’s presence…hence your assumption that the Father will be ‘coming’ as he is ‘in’ Christ…However as you can see, according to this line of logic, the Father and Son are already here. The second coming must then have come at Pentecost…
….No. In the context of Revelations, ‘coming’ denotes the visible coming presence of Jesus Christ. Note: Rev1:7 “Look, he is coming with the clouds, and every eye will see him;….” Note the following:Zech14:9 “Then YHWH will go out and fight against those nations, as he fights in the day of battle. On that day his feet will stand on the Mount of Olives, east of Jerusalem,…” Cf…Acts1:11-12 “…This same Jesus, who has been taken from you into heaven, will come back in the same way you have seen him go into heaven. Then they returned to Jerusalem from the hill called the Mount of Olives…”..cf..1Thess10 “..and to wait for his Son from heaven,….” (Note how it is Jesus who is said to come back..)…cf…Zech14:5 “Then YHWH will come and all his Holy ones with him”…cf…Rev19:11 “I saw heaven standing open and there before me was a white horse, whose rider is called Faithful and True. With justice he judges (cf..Joel 3:12.all nations...cf..Jn5:22) and makes war. His eyes are like blazing fire, an on his head are many crowns. He has a name written on himself that no one knows but he himself (cf Judges13:18/Is9:6-’Secret/Wonderful’..). He is dressed in a robe dipped in blood, and his name is the ‘Word of God’ (cf..Jn1:1,12). The armies of heaven were following Him, riding on white horses…”..cf.. Matthew 13:41"The Son of Man will send forth His angels, and they will gather out of His kingdom all stumbling blocks, and those who commit lawlessness, …”..cf.. Matthew 25:31
"But when [Matt 16:27f; 1 Thess 4:16; 2 Thess 1:7; Heb 9:28; Jude 14; Rev 1:7] the Son of Man comes in His glory, and all the angels with Him, then He will sit on His glorious throne”.cf.. 2 Thessalonians 1:7
and to give relief to you who are afflicted and to us as well [Luke 17:30] when the Lord Jesus will be revealed [1 Thess 4:16] from heaven [Jude 14] with His mighty angels [Ex 3:2; 19:18; Is 66:15; Ezek 1:13; Dan 7:9; Matt 25:41; 1 Cor 3:13; Heb 10:27; 12:29; 2 Pet 3:7; Jude 7; Rev 14:10] in flaming fire”...cf…Zech14:9 “The Lord will be King over the whole earth. On that day there will be one Lord, and His name the only name.”…cf…Rev11:15 “The kingdom of the world has become the kingdom of our Lord (1Cor8;6; Jude4) and his Christ, and he will reign for ever and ever (Note the dual reign, yet the singular pronoun…God is never referred to with ‘they’ or ‘them’ in Revelations….”..cf..Rev19:16 “On His robe and on His thigh he has this name written: KING OF KINGS AND LORD OF LORDS.”..i.e. over the whole earth (Ps10:16)…cf…Matt12:21 “In His name [Jesus] the nations put their hope.”..cf.. Matthew 24:9 " Then they will deliver you to tribulation, and will kill you, and you will be hated by all nations because of My name.”..cf.. John 1:12 But as many as received Him, to them He gave the right to become children of God, even to those who believe in His name,”..cf.. John 17:11 "I am no longer in the world; and yet they themselves are in the world, and I come to You. Holy Father, keep them in Your name, the name which You have given Me, that they may be one even as We are. Acts 4:12 "And there is salvation in no one else; for there is no other name under heaven that has been given among men by which we must be saved." ..cf.. Acts 8:12 But when they believed Philip preaching the good news about the kingdom of God and the name of Jesus Christ, they were being baptized, men and women alike.”..cf.. Acts 8:16 “For He had not yet fallen upon any of them; they had simply been baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus (cf..Matt28:19 ???)..cf..Phil2:9 “….and gave Him the name that is above every name, that at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, in heaven and on earth, and every tongue confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of the Father.”..cf.. Isaiah 4522 "Turn to me and be saved, all you ends of the earth; for I am God, and there is no other. my mouth has uttered in all integrity a word that will not be revoked: Before me every knee will bow; by me every tongue will swear. are righteousness and strength.' " …….
Through extensive harmonization we can see the it is Jesus who is YHWH who is ‘coming’…
God bless,
Jeremiah L.G.
Evangelion
New member
Reformat it.
It's virtually unreadable in its current state.
It's virtually unreadable in its current state.
Evangelion
New member
Alleged "parallel descriptions" just don't cut it, BTW. You need a lot more than that before you've got the deity of Christ all wrapped up in a nice little package.
Hi AV,
I will start of by saying that my computer screen died yesterday, so I havent go computeraccess at home right now. Besides that I will be on a little trip from the 27th to the 3rd August. My response here will be very short and perhaps also quit sporadic.
First of all this statement:
John 17:21 ”….that all of them may be one, Father, just as you are in me and I am in you"
tells you that God and Jesus are one in the same manner as believers of like faith are.
Secondly, Jesus and God will come back the same way Jesus and God left. 2 Cor. 5:19 clearly shows that Jesus and God are two seperate beings and God was inside Jesus. Then it's up to the reader to decide whether God rested inside the flesh, guts and bones of Jesus or if this is figurative for their spiritual unity. You may think what you like, I choose the later.
You tried earlier to proof Jesus was God through comparing Revelations 19 to the chapters in Isaiah speaking of the same event. You failed hard. You overlooked as all trinitarians do when they use Isaiah to proof the trinity, that in Isaiah terminology Jesus is the arm of God - "growing up before him (God) as a plant" (Isaiah 53, I can't quote now) or "my servant" (Isaiah 42). In the same manner, Jesus was treeding in the winepress of the Almighty, not his own in this context, being God's servant as Acts 3:13 puts it. Jesus is simply God's visible/physical manifestation, his imprent. Jesus aswell as the saints will bear the name of God in their manifestation of him (Phil. 2:11, Acts 3:12).
I note your "dual reign/singular pronoun" and agree fully with the passage, whether or not this is entirely correct. You just don't understand what it really means. Remember that verse from somewhere in the Gospels: "Blessed is he (Jesus) who comes in the name of the LORD (God)?". Very essential.
The confession of Jesus as Lord will to the glory of God the Father. Again, an immortal sinless servant (and not to mention the 2nd highest of all) do what he do, to God's glory. I can't help giving you one for this "Before ME every knee will bow". In the OT, the Israliets where before the LORD when they were at the temple / before their priest.
Again, Jesus and God will come back the same way Jesus and God left.
I think that's about what I say for now. Every minute costs at a computer cafe and I may check another thread too.
I will start of by saying that my computer screen died yesterday, so I havent go computeraccess at home right now. Besides that I will be on a little trip from the 27th to the 3rd August. My response here will be very short and perhaps also quit sporadic.
First of all this statement:
John 17:21 ”….that all of them may be one, Father, just as you are in me and I am in you"
tells you that God and Jesus are one in the same manner as believers of like faith are.
Secondly, Jesus and God will come back the same way Jesus and God left. 2 Cor. 5:19 clearly shows that Jesus and God are two seperate beings and God was inside Jesus. Then it's up to the reader to decide whether God rested inside the flesh, guts and bones of Jesus or if this is figurative for their spiritual unity. You may think what you like, I choose the later.
You tried earlier to proof Jesus was God through comparing Revelations 19 to the chapters in Isaiah speaking of the same event. You failed hard. You overlooked as all trinitarians do when they use Isaiah to proof the trinity, that in Isaiah terminology Jesus is the arm of God - "growing up before him (God) as a plant" (Isaiah 53, I can't quote now) or "my servant" (Isaiah 42). In the same manner, Jesus was treeding in the winepress of the Almighty, not his own in this context, being God's servant as Acts 3:13 puts it. Jesus is simply God's visible/physical manifestation, his imprent. Jesus aswell as the saints will bear the name of God in their manifestation of him (Phil. 2:11, Acts 3:12).
I note your "dual reign/singular pronoun" and agree fully with the passage, whether or not this is entirely correct. You just don't understand what it really means. Remember that verse from somewhere in the Gospels: "Blessed is he (Jesus) who comes in the name of the LORD (God)?". Very essential.
The confession of Jesus as Lord will to the glory of God the Father. Again, an immortal sinless servant (and not to mention the 2nd highest of all) do what he do, to God's glory. I can't help giving you one for this "Before ME every knee will bow". In the OT, the Israliets where before the LORD when they were at the temple / before their priest.
Again, Jesus and God will come back the same way Jesus and God left.
I think that's about what I say for now. Every minute costs at a computer cafe and I may check another thread too
.
Evangelion
New member
AV -
You must have a very special sort of Bible. Mine says this:
The verse you want is 3, not 9.
By the way, God doesn't need to be on earth literally, in order for this prophecy to be fulfilled. He certainly wasn't on the earth literally when He fought the enemies of Israel at an earlier time.
Thus, John Gill:
None of this requires Jesus' name to be Yahweh, nor even that it is directly applied to him here.
You must have a very special sort of Bible. Mine says this:
Zechariah 14:9.
And the LORD shall be king over all the earth: in that day shall there be one LORD, and his name one.
The verse you want is 3, not 9.
Then shall the LORD go forth, and fight against those nations, as when he fought in the day of battle.
By the way, God doesn't need to be on earth literally, in order for this prophecy to be fulfilled. He certainly wasn't on the earth literally when He fought the enemies of Israel at an earlier time.
Thus, John Gill:
and fight against those nations, as when he fought in the day of battle:
the Targum adds, "at the Red Sea"; when the Lord fought for, Israel against the Egyptians, Exo_14:25 and afterwards against the Canaanites, when they entered the land of Canaan under Joshua: thus Christ shall judge, and make war in righteousness, and overcome those that shall make war with him; and with the sharp sword that goeth out of his mouth shall smite nations, and with a rod of iron rule them, and break them to shivers, Rev_14:14 see also Eze_38:21.
None of this requires Jesus' name to be Yahweh, nor even that it is directly applied to him here.
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Evangelion
New member
Sorry to hear about your monitor, Anastasis! Hope you get everything fixed up very soon. :up:
Hope you get everything fixed up very soon. :up:
Evangelion
New member
I had to replace my motherboard this year, so I decided to go for the gusto and get myself some new RAM. Now I have 256 Mb of DDR RAM. It's actually faster than the 308 Mb of SD RAM that I used to have! And a couple of months ago I went from a 14 inch monitor to a 19 inch monitor. Huge difference! :up:
It's actually faster than the 308 Mb of SD RAM that I used to have! And a couple of months ago I went from a 14 inch monitor to a 19 inch monitor. Huge difference! :up: Jaltus,
I personally prefer to buy a new computer system every 3-4 years if I can afford it. Are you a technical person? I don't think I should expose how little I know about the technic of computers.
Ev,
I like stories with a happy end. From 14 (poor thing) to 19 inch sound that way to me. Both my old and this "new" one is 17 inch.
God Bless
I personally prefer to buy a new computer system every 3-4 years if I can afford it. Are you a technical person? I don't think I should expose how little I know about the technic of computers
.Ev,
I like stories with a happy end. From 14 (poor thing) to 19 inch sound that way to me
. Both my old and this "new" one is 17 inch. God Bless
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