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EarnestBorg9

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Aimiel said:
He designed it this way for His Eternal Purpose. If you really want to know, and don't just want to take someone's word who might know a few things 'about' Him or even the world of 10,000 people who know Him, but if you want to know, really know, you'll have to ask Him. If you wait until you realize that He exists, and you missed out on His Offer, until after you die, it will be eternally too late. Not just for you to get the answer you want, but to change your mind.

First of all, thanks for sharing your testimony. Who knows, maybe in a few days, years or decades, I may believe yet again; it isn't outside the relm of impossibilty, but I would not be able to believe in a literal bible, the exclusivity that comes with believing nor an eternity in heaven.
That pretty much keeps me out of the club! :angel:
Also, I want to say that I do not think in any way that I am smarter than anyone here, or that I am more informed. Maybe I have been through through cycles (reincarnations) that some of you have not been through yet. :confused:
Or, I could be on a 2 day sugar from consuming mass quanities of candy, while playing Iron Maiden on the guitar and trying to use Synaptic to instal GAIM on Debian!

Yes, I am a geek. :guitar:

Got to go for now, I'll check back in the morning, good night all!
 
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On Fire

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EarnestBorg9 said:
Good point. But neither do Pedo's have the ear of the people or try to speak on your behalf; the ones that are clearly missing a chromosone ARE speaking for believers. Pat Robertson, Rod Parsley, etc, and if they are in the minority are they allowed to speak for the majority, if the majority disagree with them?

Added by edit: Got to go home for the day, not posting and running, will check the board later!
They are not eleceted so they speak for no one but themselves. The fact that YOU see them as speaking for all Christians says something about you.
 

EarnestBorg9

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On Fire said:
They are not eleceted so they speak for no one but themselves. The fact that YOU see them as speaking for all Christians says something about you.

If a person states that he is a Christian and he has a public forum in which to speak (a radio show, a tv show, etc) and he is NOT in line with the majority of Christians, then in their silence, they are in fact allowing him to speak for them. So in not calling/writing advertisers that buy spots on their shows and telling them you will no longer use their products until this guy is off the air, they actually ARE supporting him.
If someone came out as a freethinker/Theosophist and stated that he feels all Christians should be fed to the lions, I am obligated (as long as I know about the statement) to try and use my dollars to make him stop representing me!

However, if you are content with Pat Robertson and the rest of his ilk speaking for you, then you should not have a problem with it and of course my statement seems stupid.
 
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Aimiel

Well-known member
No one is responsible for someone else's sin, or for their professed doctrine, as to whether or not it is sound. Those who appear on TV and radio who profess The Name of The Lord don't necessarily have a relationship with The Lord and aren't 'representative' of Him, in reality; many of them will say to Jesus, "Lord, Lord..." on judgement day and be told: "Depart from Me, I never knew you." Professing to know Him isn't knowing Him. If Christians were to hold more ministers accountable for their doctrine, The Body of Christ would certainly be more mature, and representative of Jesus, but God doesn't fault us for sins and discard us for any and every error, He forgives and teaches us as He wills, making use of even leaders who are not yet perfect (no one is perfect yet, or they'd already be in Heaven).
 

On Fire

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EarnestBorg9 said:
If a person states that he is a Christian and he has a public forum in which to speak (a radio show, a tv show, etc) and he is NOT in line with the majority of Christians, then in their silence, they are in fact allowing him to speak for them. So in not calling/writing advertisers that buy spots on their shows and telling them you will no longer use their products until this guy is off the air, they actually ARE supporting him.
If someone came out as a freethinker/Theosophist and stated that he feels all Christians should be fed to the lions, I am obligated (as long as I know about the statement) to try and use my dollars to make him stop representing me!

However, if you are content with Pat Robertson and the rest of his ilk speaking for you, then you should not have a problem with it and of course my statement seems stupid.
Some men are racists. Some abuse women. They don't speak for me either.

Like Granite, your issues with Christianity seem to stem from your dissappointment in people. People are sinful. Christianity is about your personal relationship with Jesus. Why throw away your ideals because of how other people who claim to share your ldeals act?
 

Granite

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Hall of Fame
On Fire said:
Some men are racists. Some abuse women. They don't speak for me either.

Like Granite, your issues with Christianity seem to stem from your dissappointment in people. People are sinful. Christianity is about your personal relationship with Jesus. Why throw away your ideals because of how other people who claim to share your ldeals act?

Couple things...

My disappointment began with the people and was validated as I looked deeper at my faith. Christians say all you need is a personal relationship with Jesus but what they're really asking you to believe is a lot more complicated than that.
 

EarnestBorg9

New member
Aimiel said:
No one is responsible for someone else's sin, or for their professed doctrine, as to whether or not it is sound. Those who appear on TV and radio who profess The Name of The Lord don't necessarily have a relationship with The Lord and aren't 'representative' of Him

I believe that, but the problem is, if no one challenges the person, then my their omission to do anytihng, they are allowing it.
Aimiel said:
, in reality; many of them will say to Jesus, "Lord, Lord..." on judgement day and be told: "Depart from Me, I never knew you." Professing to know Him isn't knowing Him. If Christians were to hold more ministers accountable for their doctrine, The Body of Christ would certainly be more mature, and representative of Jesus, but God doesn't fault us for sins and discard us for any and every error, He forgives and teaches us as He wills, making use of even leaders who are not yet perfect (no one is perfect yet, or they'd already be in Heaven).

Also, who am I to judge Christians? I know it seems that way, but I am questioning why people let other speak on their behalf, by simply invoking the same name. I realize that none of us are perfect (or we would have attained our new form and moved on), but it frustrates ME when I hear someone invoke the name of God or Jesus and they obviously misrepresent them. For example, Fred Phelps; no one can honestly believe that way unless you are psychotic. Yet he invokes the name God and tarnishes Christianity.
What can you do thoug? Not sure in the case of an internet nut.....maybe hack his box and whack his drive... :D
 

EarnestBorg9

New member
On Fire said:
Some men are racists. Some abuse women. They don't speak for me either.

Like Granite, your issues with Christianity seem to stem from your dissappointment in people. People are sinful. Christianity is about your personal relationship with Jesus. Why throw away your ideals because of how other people who claim to share your ldeals act?

But there isn't a unified group of women abusers; racists groups exist, but most are inbred, uneducated, cousin marrying degenerates...not that I have a strong opinion on racism. But IF you are, for example, a white 30-ish man living in the US and another man of the same description arose in power and stated that all white 30-ish man living in the US shares his views on race, sex, whatever, and they were not your views, would you be silent?
 

Aimiel

Well-known member
EarnestBorg9 said:
But there isn't a unified group of women abusers; racists groups exist, but most are inbred, uneducated, cousin marrying degenerates...not that I have a strong opinion on racism. But IF you are, for example, a white 30-ish man living in the US and another man of the same description arose in power and stated that all white 30-ish man living in the US shares his views on race, sex, whatever, and they were not your views, would you be silent?
I wounldn't give him a second thought; just for the same reason that we don't boycot advertisers on TV's products because there is a nut-case purporting to represent Christianity with heresy or stop using a particular brand of sheets, because we might see a label on one a Clucks Klueless Klan member might be wearing at an Ignorance Demonstration; it wouldn't be effective and isn't worth the effort. Many of these kooks wouldn't be running around loose if we had such a thing as a sanity test at the driver's license bureau, anyway. :crackup:
 

EarnestBorg9

New member
Aimiel said:
I wounldn't give him a second thought; just for the same reason that we don't boycot advertisers on TV's products because there is a nut-case purporting to represent Christianity with heresy or stop using a particular brand of sheets, because we might see a label on one a Clucks Klueless Klan member might be wearing at an Ignorance Demonstration; it wouldn't be effective and isn't worth the effort. Many of these kooks wouldn't be running around loose if we had such a thing as a sanity test at the driver's license bureau, anyway. :crackup:

I may need an abestos suit after this one:
If these people don't matter and they don't have the ear of the public, then how does Pat Robertson, Benny Hinn, Rod Parsley and other have an easily accessible forum?
I'm not sure where I intended to go with this, but maybe I am blowing things out of proportion.
At least when G W Bush started with his insanity, everyone paid attention and didn't vote him in! That would have been a nightmare!!!
Wait a minute....
 

EarnestBorg9

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Granite said:
Couple things...

My disappointment began with the people and was validated as I looked deeper at my faith. Christians say all you need is a personal relationship with Jesus but what they're really asking you to believe is a lot more complicated than that.

Not only that, but Onfire, what ideals did I throw away? When I left Christianity, I left behind a boatload of guilt, a belief in a 6,000 year old earth, a belief in an eternal hell, a belief in a devil and a God that died to satisfy some rule to save us from a rule that he made himself. I did not leave my sense of morals (which is dictated by the society we live in, anyway), my love of my family and feloowman, and the other things that make me a ray of sunshine :p
 

Aimiel

Well-known member
EarnestBorg9 said:
If these people don't matter and they don't have the ear of the public, then how does Pat Robertson, Benny Hinn, Rod Parsley and other have an easily accessible forum?
If people want to blindly follow blind leaders, that is their prerogative. We're told to prove all things, and rightly divide The Word of Truth, not swallow everything that is said by men who know 'about' God. Aspiring to 'greatness' by centering your concentration around a TV ministry or magnifying one's self above The Lord isn't Christ-like, it is error, the same as abandoning your faith because God doesn't say or do what you want Him to or appear when you rub your magic lamp.
 

Aimiel

Well-known member
EarnestBorg9 said:
When I left Christianity, I left behind a boatload of guilt, a belief in a 6,000 year old earth, a belief in an eternal hell, a belief in a devil and a God that died to satisfy some rule to save us from a rule that he made himself.
The guilt was borne by Jesus, and should have been transferred to Him, upon your conversion, and any residual or recurring guilt should have been transferred to Him upon learning and growing to spiritual maturity by studying, meditating and listening to His Word. Whether the earth is six thousand or six billion years old doesn't make The Word of God a lie. Hell is a spirit, and will be cast into The Lake of Fire, along with the spirit of death; Their torment is God's Justice, for their rebellion. The devil wants people to believe he doesn't exist, and that God doesn't, as well. God designed His Plan, long before He began creation, including His Own Death to save us from our own mistakes.
 

EarnestBorg9

New member
Aimiel said:
If people want to blindly follow blind leaders, that is their prerogative. We're told to prove all things, and rightly divide The Word of Truth, not swallow everything that is said by men who know 'about' God. Aspiring to 'greatness' by centering your concentration around a TV ministry or magnifying one's self above The Lord isn't Christ-like, it is error
I agree, and maybe people are not paying attention in the way that I thought. I hope that you speak for the majority and those leaders are more of an annoyance than anything.
Aimiel said:
, the same as abandoning your faith because God doesn't say or do what you want Him to or appear when you rub your magic lamp.

That is the wrong reason to 'stop believing', in my case and many others that I have spoken with, this was not the reason. I didn't take my toys an go home because I didn't get my way (keep in mind, I left the faith 10 years ago and had no faith for 8 of those years), I simply could not believe anymore because 'it' did not make any sense to me.
 

EarnestBorg9

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On Fire said:
Nothing but the blood of Jesus.

Rather morbid, isn't I? I don't remember asking anyone to shed blood for me, yet according to Christianity, I am obligated to accept this "gift" or suffer in a flaming pit! Isn't that a bit like spirtual extortion?
 

EarnestBorg9

New member
Aimiel said:
The guilt was borne by Jesus, and should have been transferred to Him, upon your conversion, and any residual or recurring guilt should have been transferred to Him upon learning and growing to spiritual maturity by studying, meditating and listening to His Word. Whether the earth is six thousand or six billion years old doesn't make The Word of God a lie. Hell is a spirit, and will be cast into The Lake of Fire, along with the spirit of death; Their torment is God's Justice, for their rebellion. The devil wants people to believe he doesn't exist, and that God doesn't, as well. God designed His Plan, long before He began creation, including His Own Death to save us from our own mistakes.
Why though? That's the $60,000,000 question, isn't it?
Why did God have to sacrifice Himself to Himself to change a rule that He made? Additionally, we now have to follow the narrow path all the way to the end or we STILL suffer for eternity?
 

Lovejoy

Active member
But there isn't a unified group of women abusers; racists groups exist, but most are inbred, uneducated, cousin marrying degenerates...not that I have a strong opinion on racism. But IF you are, for example, a white 30-ish man living in the US and another man of the same description arose in power and stated that all white 30-ish man living in the US shares his views on race, sex, whatever, and they were not your views, would you be silent?
As a white 30's male, I must say that this is already occuring. What is broadcast and cable television, and Hollywood for that matter, doing except just that? Presenting, essentially, caricaturized versions of whatever demographic it is chasing? The characters of the show Friends were presented as being my age (though they are all older than me), and all were presented as sexually active, pro-porn, pro-gay, etc, without a single dissenting vote. However, what good would it have done me to speak out? Really, all I could do was not watch it, and lead my life in a fashion utterly inconsistent with that representation. If someone wished to view me from the light of what was presented on television, the fault would then lie with them, not me.

Now that may seem irrelevant to the concept of a proposed leader doing the same thing, but frankly, a lot more people watched Friends than the 700 Club.

I may need an abestos suit after this one:
If these people don't matter and they don't have the ear of the public, then how does Pat Robertson, Benny Hinn, Rod Parsley and other have an easily accessible forum?
I'm not sure where I intended to go with this, but maybe I am blowing things out of proportion.
At least when G W Bush started with his insanity, everyone paid attention and didn't vote him in! That would have been a nightmare!!!
Wait a minute....
Now you seem to be mixing a great number of different types of "groups" into one paragraph. This appears to be an attempt to imply that there must be something wrong with Christianity if any of these types of people can rise to power in it. To answer that charge, I would have to answer for each individual that you have listed, as they are by no means the same (other than all of them being very rich)! That is, if Christianity were the problem. It is not. The problem is with people! People want to be lead, and they want a strong earthly presence to do it. With Robertson, they seem to have an authority figure with real political clout. With Hinn, they have the promise of a showy, obvious, spirit-filled line to God. Parsley is just loud (that appeals to some people).

Frankly, most of this is adiaphora (matters indifferent) to salvation, though much of it is scripturally incorrect. As such, I don't waste a great deal of breath on it. If the people following these men truly are reading their bible, and are filled with the Spirit, they will find their way out and to a more solid church (as God wills it). And for myself, those that I lead to Christ, and those that listen to me afterward, are given enough Scriptural education that are not vulnerable to men like that.

The problem, then, lies with people like you looking on, and being biased enough to choose to view the entirety of Christ's work based on a few outlandish and publicly (as in media) obvious claimants of His grace. Right now you are dealing with us! What we say, what we evidence. Did you come here to dispute with Robertson? He is not here to answer.
 

EarnestBorg9

New member
Lovejoy said:
As a white 30's male, I must say that this is already occuring. What is broadcast and cable television, and Hollywood for that matter, doing except just that? Presenting, essentially, caricaturized versions of whatever demographic it is chasing? The characters of the show Friends were presented as being my age (though they are all older than me), and all were presented as sexually active, pro-porn, pro-gay, etc, without a single dissenting vote. However, what good would it have done me to speak out? Really, all I could do was not watch it, and lead my life in a fashion utterly inconsistent with that representation. If someone wished to view me from the light of what was presented on television, the fault would then lie with them, not me.

Now that may seem irrelevant to the concept of a proposed leader doing the same thing, but frankly, a lot more people watched Friends than the 700 Club.


Now you seem to be mixing a great number of different types of "groups" into one paragraph. This appears to be an attempt to imply that there must be something wrong with Christianity if any of these types of people can rise to power in it. To answer that charge, I would have to answer for each individual that you have listed, as they are by no means the same (other than all of them being very rich)! That is, if Christianity were the problem. It is not. The problem is with people! People want to be lead, and they want a strong earthly presence to do it. With Robertson, they seem to have an authority figure with real political clout. With Hinn, they have the promise of a showy, obvious, spirit-filled line to God. Parsley is just loud (that appeals to some people).

Frankly, most of this is adiaphora (matters indifferent) to salvation, though much of it is scripturally incorrect. As such, I don't waste a great deal of breath on it. If the people following these men truly are reading their bible, and are filled with the Spirit, they will find their way out and to a more solid church (as God wills it). And for myself, those that I lead to Christ, and those that listen to me afterward, are given enough Scriptural education that are not vulnerable to men like that.

The problem, then, lies with people like you looking on, and being biased enough to choose to view the entirety of Christ's work based on a few outlandish and publicly (as in media) obvious claimants of His grace. Right now you are dealing with us! What we say, what we evidence. Did you come here to dispute with Robertson? He is not here to answer.


That was very well put, Lovejoy, and no, I do not have a problem with you or anyone else that I have replied to so far on this forum. The fault probably does lie with me, as I am biased in my views on Christianity to a point. If I were a Christian though, I would be more than a little upset that these guys speak on my behalf (simply based on the fact they cal;l themselves 'Christian', but then I would do as you do, not attend their services, not watch their programs and not mention to others as leaders that I would support.
So, it appears I need to mellow out!
 

Lovejoy

Active member
EarnestBorg9 said:
That was very well put, Lovejoy, and no, I do not have a problem with you or anyone else that I have replied to so far on this forum. The fault probably does lie with me, as I am biased in my views on Christianity to a point. If I were a Christian though, I would be more than a little upset that these guys speak on my behalf (simply based on the fact they cal;l themselves 'Christian', but then I would do as you do, not attend their services, not watch their programs and not mention to others as leaders that I would support.
So, it appears I need to mellow out!
Do not take the last paragraph as condemnation, as such (though I appreciate your willingness to look inward for part of the problem, as it speaks well of you.) When I say "the problem lies with people looking on," that is, in fact, speaking to the inherent flaws of men, and is my admission that there is a problem with those (like Robertson) who do portray us badly.

The next step, though, is for us to form a dialogue on this based strictly on the merits of our belief systems.
 
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