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Mystery

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Why would a holy, wise God chose a godless pervert to share in His inner ministry of the gospel? Are you saying that a night of prayer led to a foolish decision or are you being Calvinistic or fatalistic about Judas' destiny? Try OT on for size.

Jesus knowing the heart of Judas, and knowing that he would betray Him, does not negate OT in the least. It is no different than Jesus knowing that Peter would deny Him, from knowing the heart of Peter and then causing the rooster to crow.

Judas was chosen because Jesus knew his heart. In order for the prophecy to be fulfilled, Jesus had to choose someone who would betray Him.

Instead of being a hard-hearted pride-filled jerk, why don't you just admit that you have little biblical knowledge about this subject?
 

Ask Mr. Religion

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Lk. 2 was not the best verse, but still valid. Sonship is a concept that is not identical to our modern legal system.

Sonship is not irrevocable.
Then why does Scripture use the sonship semantics at all? The Scripture is not using the term "son", "sons", etc., loosely as you would hand wave it away. You are not making sense here. Where is the support for your loose view of sonship? Have you conducted a word study or something?
 

Ask Mr. Religion

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From the beginning or early in his ministry, not from eternity past or Gen. 1:1. The chronology must be carefully mapped lest you proof text out of context.
This does not have to be an example of eternal foreknowledge. Jesus knew from the beginning of His ministry, thus He knew Judas was a betrayer and never saved. You have no Scriptural warrant to claim "or early in his ministry".
 

godrulz

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Then why does Scripture use the sonship semantics at all? The Scripture is not using the term "son", "sons", etc., loosely as you would hand wave it away. You are not making sense here. Where is the support for your loose view of sonship? Have you conducted a word study or something?

Believers and Sonship are legit truths. They do not negate apostasy truths though. Shank deals with the nature of sonship and seals from a different perspective than you. We must look into historical background, all relevant verses, etc. (sorry for mentioning Shank; you can go ahead and say Sproul's teaching on sonship is more correct...I will not object...perhaps Sproul would explain it better than you or I...same with Shank).

What does it matter? You are closer to mystery's view, but not the same. We are both doomed to hell by Judge Sozo for not parroting his view perfectly. Woe is us! (Thankfully, mystery is wrong and Rom. 7:24-25 is correct)
 

Ask Mr. Religion

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On Shank and the New Birth

On Shank and the New Birth

Believers and Sonship are legit truths. They do not negate apostasy truths though. Shank deals with the nature of sonship and seals from a different perspective than you. We must look into historical background, all relevant verses, etc. (sorry for mentioning Shank; you can go ahead and say Sproul's teaching on sonship is more correct...I will not object...perhaps Sproul would explain it better than you or I...same with Shank).
Shank's reliance on John 3 ignores the comparisons there with sonship of Galatians 4:6, a new creation of 2 Cor. 5:17, and heirs of God and joint-heirs of Christ in Romans 8:16-17. When these verses are seen in light of John 10:28, "I give them eternal life, and they will never perish, and no one will snatch them out of my hand", the irreversibility of th new birth is seen as a very viable interpretation of the teaching of Christ. Even at the very worst, they do not prove that Shank's argument is bolstered by his comparisons of spiritual and physical birth.

Shank speaks about the initial experience (conversion) and the sustained relationship (perseverance). He points to a number of perfect tenses of gennaw which refer to the new birth. Of the seven perfect tenses in 1 John Shank says four are perfect participles and three are perfect indicatives. According to Shank John's emphasis is on the new birth as a present relationship rather than a past event.

We know from Greek grammar that the perfect tense is a past act with continuing results (e.g., Robertson's A Greek Grammar if the Greek New Testament). It is the tense which refers to an existing state. Continuing results can be emphasized, but this emphasis does not exclude the concept of a past event. John is including both or he probably would have used the present tense.

Shank gives a decent expanded translation of 1 John 3:6, "Whoever deliberately practices sin has not seen Him and continued seeing Him, nor known Him and continued knowing Him." However, by his own application of this translation Shank is guilty of erring in the opposite direction. He fails to take note of the past event when he says "...and it is equally applicable to apostates who have departed from true saving faith in Christ." !!!!

Shank offers no grammatical authority for his assertions: he simply quotes two Arminians, Westcott and Lange, who agree with his final conclusion on the perfect of 1 John 3:6b, which is: "There is nothing about 1 John 3:6b that affirms that 'Christians' whose lives contradict their profession of faith are necessarily men who have never known Christ in a true saving relationship." There is nothing except the meaning of the perfect tense!

The past act is just as much a part of the tense as the present result.
When one is negated they are both negated. The grammarians do speak of a present perfect and of an extensive present perfect which refers to a completed state (again, see Robertson or even Moulton). Yet, the latter is with certain verbs as Burton notes, "This usage occurs most frequently in a few verbs which use the perfect in this sense only" (see Burton's Syntax of the Moods and Tenses in New Testament Greek). Dana and Mantey (Greek Grammar) give a full translation of the present perfect found in Romans 14:23, "but he who doubts has already been condemned [past fact], and is then in a state of condemnation if he eat."

From the perfect tense it must be assumed, then, that the one who practices sin has never known nor seen God and, therefore, has never been saved.

Shank's entire argument on this matter is grammatically unfounded.
 

godrulz

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Unbelief is a unique sin not dealt with in passages about believers who struggle with sin. Apostate passages stand on their own.
 

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You and others in recent posts that talk about sin and POTS or OSAS.
Well I was giving you the benefit of the doubt, but you let me down again. Your short response is all you have to offer to my detailed explanation of why your beloved Mr. Shank is wrong on the whole sonship matter? Unbelievable.
 

godrulz

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Well I was giving you the benefit of the doubt, but you let me down again. Your short response is all you have to offer to my detailed explanation of why your beloved Mr. Shank is wrong on the whole sonship matter? Unbelievable.


Your interpretation of Shank without posting his whole book in context is not as persuasive of what he says in the whole chapter/book. He is no doubt wrong on some technical details, but overall, he is on the right track.

I am not here to exegete Shank, but Scripture. I can't even remember his sonship chapter, if I have even read it. I take the meat and throw out bones. If you want to dissect Shank, talk to him in heaven. I do not base my views of 30 years on a book I just started, but not finished, a month or two ago.

I read it and noted it. You are not infallible. OSAS does not depend on one verse or book.

I have not even read mystery's thread saying I said Jesus is a liar. This is more important than getting bogged down with your post now. I also do not have the expertise in Greek nor can I recall Shank's beliefs on this subject.
 

Ask Mr. Religion

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Your interpretation of Shank without posting his whole book in context is not as persuasive of what he says in the whole chapter/book. He is no doubt wrong on some technical details, but overall, he is on the right track.

I am not here to exegete Shank, but Scripture. I can't even remember his sonship chapter, if I have even read it. I take the meat and throw out bones. If you want to dissect Shank, talk to him in heaven. I do not base my views of 30 years on a book I just started, but not finished, a month or two ago.

I read it and noted it. You are not infallible. OSAS does not depend on one verse or book.

I have not even read mystery's thread saying I said Jesus is a liar. This is more important than getting bogged down with your post now. I also do not have the expertise in Greek nor can I recall Shank's beliefs on this subject.
By this post you prove that what you say is not what you mean.

You truly are not interested in honest discourse, gr. You sole motivation is to accumulate large numbers of posts without ever yielding to the expectation that, when challenged, you will defend the misinformation you spread. For you, TOL is a merely a billboard for you to showcase your own bad theology. This is pride at its worst level.
 

godrulz

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I did not realize their was money for number of posts or a Nobel prize. I really don't care how many or few posts I have. I do care about reminding people there are other views that should be considered in making an informed opinion. It is beyond most of our scopes to definitively engage all people and all views all of the time.

This is not my vocation. If I wanted to write a thesis on every possible subject I would go to seminary and get a doctorate.

You will like this one: Consider me theology-lite unless it is on essential topics like the Deity of Christ and monotheism in my ongoing discussions with JWs and Mormons. Then, I will exegete verses and reason until Armageddon.
 

Ask Mr. Religion

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I did not realize their was money for number of posts or a Nobel prize. I really don't care how many or few posts I have. I do care about reminding people there are other views that should be considered in making an informed opinion. It is beyond most of our scopes to definitively engage all people and all views all of the time.

This is not my vocation. If I wanted to write a thesis on every possible subject I would go to seminary and get a doctorate.

You will like this one: Consider me theology-lite unless it is on essential topics like the Deity of Christ and monotheism in my ongoing discussions with JWs and Mormons. Then, I will exegete verses and reason until Armageddon.
Somehow you think "discussion" is one-sided. I have given you many, many, chances to engage. You complain when placed on ignore. I take you off ignore, try to engage, all to no avail. I am no longer interested in your assertions if you refuse to engage. When I want to pay money to just read posts I subscribe to news feeds.
 

Andy Curry

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I am looking for a church, a place to fellowship. I thought I would say what my leanings are and see if you there at TOL would know of a church I would be at home in... a place of similar values and beliefs.

I try to walk the walk of a fundamentalist but appreaciate the non-condeming attitude of the liberalist. See value in liberalist thinking. Would rather associate with a non condeming Spirit in people that is so hard to find at the fundamentalist camp.

Interpretation of Bible is not Literal; example -Doctrin of hell is one that is a warning to us not a place that everyone who does not believe in Jesus is condemned to spend eternity in.

Preterest - believe that the book of Revalation has allready happened and even Jesus return could of allready happened - not sure, but leaning this way.

May think of some more but will put these up for now... Please don't preach to me - I am just asking for information of churches with similar beliefs...Thanks.

Look for a local Kingdom Hall(Jehova Witness) :D
 

Aimiel

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Many moons have passed and we have had to replace the bridge under which water passes several times since Servent101 ( also known as :Servent: ) has darkened the halls of TOL. :chuckle:
 

BabyChristian

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I am looking for a church, a place to fellowship. I thought I would say what my leanings are and see if you there at TOL would know of a church I would be at home in... a place of similar values and beliefs.

I try to walk the walk of a fundamentalist but appreaciate the non-condeming attitude of the liberalist. See value in liberalist thinking. Would rather associate with a non condeming Spirit in people that is so hard to find at the fundamentalist camp.

Interpretation of Bible is not Literal; example -Doctrin of hell is one that is a warning to us not a place that everyone who does not believe in Jesus is condemned to spend eternity in.

Preterest - believe that the book of Revalation has allready happened and even Jesus return could of allready happened - not sure, but leaning this way.

May think of some more but will put these up for now... Please don't preach to me - I am just asking for information of churches with similar beliefs...Thanks.

Would need to know the name of the town in Alaska. Calvary Chapel is the most amazing church. I'm sure you've heard that a thousand times but my Pastor is analytical, hysterical and brilliant. Never met anyone that has a site that goes through the entire Bible on his website.

http://www.calvary-tricities.org/studies.html


You'll believe in the entirety of the Bible one (if) you listen to Steve.



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Chapter 4 - part 1
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Chapter 2
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Chapter 4
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Chapter 17 & 18
Chapter 19 - 22
Chapter 23 & 24
Chapter 25 & 26
Chapter 27
Chapter 28
Chapter 29
Chapter 30
Chapter 31 - 33

Chapter 34 & 35
Chapter 36 & 37
Chapter 38
Chapter 39
Chapter 40 - part 1
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Chapter 41
Chapter 42 - part 1
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Chapter 45
Chapter 46
Chapter 47
Chapter 48
Chapter 49
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Chapter 53
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Chapter 55
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Chapter 60
Chapter 61
Chapter 62
Chapter 63
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Daniel
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Chapter 5 - Not Available
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Chapter 7 - part 3
Chapter 8
Chapter 9 - part 1
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Chapter 10
Chapter 11 - part 1
Chapter 11 - part 2
Chapter 11 - part 3
Chapter 11 - part 4
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Jonah
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Malachi
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Chapter 2
Chapter 3
Chapter 3 - Chapter 4
Mark
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Chapter 1 - part 2
Chapter 1 - part 3
Chapter 1 - part 4
Chapter 2 - part 1
Chapter 2 - part 2
Chapter 2 - part 3
Chapter 2 - part 4 &
Chapter 3 - part 1
Chapter 3 - part 2
Chapter 4 - part 1
Chapter 4 - part 2
Chapter 4 - part 3
Chapter 5 - part 1
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Chapter 6 - part 1
Chapter 6 - part 2
Chapter 6 - part 3
Chapter 6 - part 4
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Chapter 8 - part 1
Chapter 8 - part 2
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Chapter 9 - part 1
Chapter 9 - part 2
Chapter 9 - part 3
Chapter 9 - part 4 Chapter 10 - part 1
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Chapter 12 - part 2
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Chapter 13 - part 5
Chapter 13 - part 6
Chapter 13 - part 7
Chapter 13 - part 8
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Chapter 15 - part 5
Chapter 15 - part 6
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John
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Chapter 1 - part 2
Chapter 1 - part 3
Chapter 1 - part 4
Chapter 1 - part 5
Chapter 1 - part 6
Chapter 2 - part 1
Chapter 2 - part 2
Chapter 3 - part 1
Chapter 3 - part 2
Chapter 3 - part 3
Chapter 4 - part 1
Chapter 4 - part 2
Chapter 5 - part 1
Chapter 5 - part 2
Chapter 5 - part 3
Chapter 5 - part 4
Chapter 5 - part 5
Chapter 6 - part 1
Chapter 6 - part 2
Chapter 6 - part 3
Chapter 7 - part 1
Chapter 7 - part 2
Chapter 7 - part 3
Chapter 7 - part 4
Chapter 7 - part 5
Chapter 8 - part 1
Chapter 8 - part 2
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Chapter 9 - part 1
Chapter 9 - part 2
Chapter 10 - part 1
Chapter 10 - part 2
Chapter 10 - part 3
Chapter 10 - part 4
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Chapter 16 - part 2
Chapter 16 - part 3
Acts
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Chapter 1 - part 2
Chapter 2 - part 1
Chapter 2 - part 2
Chapter 2 - part 3
Chapter 2 - part 4
Chapter 3
Chapter 4 - part 1
Chapter 4 - part 2
Chapter 5
Chapter 6
Chapter 7
Chapter 8
Chapter 9 - part 1
Chapter 9 - part 2

Chapter 12 - 13 - part 1
Chapter 13 - part 2
Chapter 14 - 15
Chapter 16 - part 1
Chapter 16 - part 2
Chapter 17
Chapter 18
Chapter 19 - part 1
Chapter 16 - part 2 & Chapter 20
Chapter 21 - part 1
Chapter 21 - part 2 &
Chapter 22
Chapter 23-24
Chapter 25-26
Chapter 27
1 Corinthians
Chapter 1 - part 1
Chapter 1 - part 2
Chapter 2
Chapter 3 - part 1
Chapter 3 - part 2
Chapter 4
Chapter 5
Chapter 6
Chapter 7 - part 1
Chapter 7 - part 2
Chapter 7 - part 3
Chapter 8 - part 1
Chapter 8 - part 2
Chapter 9
Chapter 10
Chapter 11 - part 1 Chapter 11 - part 2
Chapter 12 - part 1
Chapter 12 - part 2
Chapter 12 - part 3
Chapter 12 - part 4
Chapter 13
Chapter 14 - part 1
Chapter 14 - part 2
Chapter 15 - part 1
Chapter 15 - part 2
Chapter 15 - part 3
Chapter 15 - part 4
Chapter 15 - part 5
Chapter 15 - part 6
Chapter 16
Galatians
Chapter 1
Chapter 1- part 2 & Chapter 2 part 1
Chapter 2 - part 2
Chapter 3
Chapter 3 - part 2 & Chapter 4 part 1
Chapter 4 - part 2 & Chapter 5 part 1
Chapter 5 - part 2 & Chapter 6
Ephesians
Chapter 1
Chapter 2 - part 1
Chapter 2 - part 2
Chapter 2 - part 3 & Chapter 3 - part 1
Chapter 3 - part 2
Chapter 4 - part 1
CHapter 4 - part 2
Chapter 4 - part 3
Chapter 5 - part 1
Chapter 5 - part 2
Chapter 5 - part 3
Chapter 5 - part 4
Chapter 5 - part 5
Chapter 5 - part 6
Chapter 5 - part 7 & Chapter 6 - part 1
Chapter 6 - part 2
Chapter 6 - part 3
Chapter 6 - part 4
Philippians
Chapter 1 - part 1
Chapter 1 - part 2
Chapter 1 - part 3
Chapter 1 - part 4
Chapter 1 - part 5
Chapter 2 - part 1
Chapter 2 - part 2
Chapter 2 - part 3
Chapter 3 - part 1
Chapter 3 - part 2
Chapter 3 - part 3
Chapter 3 - part 4
Chapter 4 - part 1
Chapter 4 - part 2
Colossians
Chapter 1 - part 1
Chapter 1 - part 2
Chapter 1 - part 3
Chapter 1 - part 4 & Chapter 2 part 1
Chapter 2 - part 2
Chapter 2 - part 3
Chapter 3 - part 1
Chapter 3 - part 2
Chapter 3 - part 3
Chapter 3 - part 4
Chapter 3 - part 5
1 Timothy
Chapter 1 - part 1
Chapter 1 - part 2
Chapter 1 - part 3
Chapter 1 - part 4
Chapter 1 - part 5
Chapter 2 - part 1
Chapter 2 - part 2
Chapter 3 - part 1
Chapter 3 - part 2
Chapter 3 - part 3
Chapter 4 - part 1
Chapter 4 - part 2
Chapter 4 - part 3
Chapter 4 - part 4
Chapter 4 - part 5 & Chapter 5 part 1
Chapter 5 - part 2
Chapter 5 - part 3
Chapter 5 - part 4 & Chapter 6 part 1
Chapter 6 - part 2
2 Timothy
Chapter 1 - part 1
Chapter 1 - part 2 & Chapter 2 part 1
Chapter 2 - part 2
Chapter 2 - part 3
Chapter 2 - part 4
Chapter 2 - part 5
Chapter 2 - part 6
Chapter 2 - part 7
Chapter 3 - part 1
Chapter 3 - part 2
Chapter 3 - part 3 & Chapter 4 part 1
Chapter 4 - part 2
Chapter 4 - part 3
Titus
Chapter 1 - part 1
Chapter 1 - part 2
Chapter 1 - part 3
Chapter 1 - part 4
Chapter 2 - part 1
Chapter 2 - part 2
Chapter 2 - part 3
Chapter 3 - part 1
Chapter 3 - part 2
Philemon
Chapter 1
Hebrews
Chapter 1 - part 1
Chapter 1 - part 2
Chapter 2 - part 1
Chapter 2 - part 2
Chapter 3
Chapter 4
Chapter 5 - part 1
Chapter 5 - part 2
Chapter 6
Chapter 7 - part 1
Chapter 7 - part 2 &
Chapter 8

Chapter 9 - part 1
Chapter 9 - part 2
Chapter 9 - part 3
Chapter 9 - part 4
Chapter 10 - part 1
Chapter 10 - part 2
Chapter 11 - part 1
Chapter 11 - part 2
Chapter 11 - part 3
Chapter11 - part 4
Chapter12 - part 1
Chapter12 - part 2 & 13
James
Chapter 1 - part 1
Chapter 1 - part 2
Chapter 1 - part 3 & Chapter 2 part 1
Chapter 2 - part 2 & Chapter 3 part 1
Chapter 3 - part 2
Chapter 4 - part 1
Chapter 4 - part 2
Chapter 4 - part 3
Chapter 5 - part 1
Chapter 5 - part 2
Chapter 5 - part 3
1 Peter
Chapter 1 - part 1
Chapter 1 - part 2
Chapter 1 - part 3
Chapter 2 - part 1
Chapter 2 - part 2
Chapter 2 - part 3
Chapter 3 - part 1
Chapter 3 - part 2
Chapter 3 - part 3
Chapter 3 - part 4
Chapter 3 - part 5
Chapter 3 - part 6
Chapter 4
Chapter 5
2 Peter
Chapter 1 - part 1
Chapter 1 - part 2
Chapter 1 - part 3
Chapter 1 - part 4
Chapter 2 - part 1
Chapter 2 - part 2
Chapter 3 - part 1
Chapter 3 - part 2
Chapter 3 - part 3
1st, 2nd, & 3rd John
1st John:
Chapter 1 - part 1
Chapter 1 - part 2
Chapter 2 - part 1
Chapter 2 - part 2
Chapter 2 - part 3
Chapter 3 - part 1
Chapter 3 - part 2
Chapter 4 - part 1

Chapter 4 - part 2
Chapter 5 - part 1
Chapter 5 - part 2
Chapter 5 - part 3
Chapter 5 - part 4
Chapter 5 - part 5
Chapter 5 - part 6

2nd John

3rd John
Jude
Chapter 1
Chapter 2
Chapter 3
Revelation
Chapter 1 - part 1
Chapter 1 - part 2
Chapter 2 - part 1
Chapter 2 - part 2
Chapter 2 - part 3
Chapter 3 - part 1
Chapter 3 - part 2
Chapter 4 - part 1
Chapter 4 - part 2
Chapter 4 - part 3
Chapter 5
Chapter 6 - part 1
Chapter 6 - part 2
Chapter 7
Chapter 8
Chapter 9
Chapter 10
Chapter 11 - part 1
Chapter 11 - part 2
Chapter 12 - part 2

Chapter 13 - part 1
Chapter 13 - part 2
Chapter 13 - part 3
Chapter 14 - part 1
Chapter 14 - part 1
Chapter 14 - part 2
Chapter 15 & 16 - part 1
Chapter 16 - part 2
Chapter 16 - part 3
Chapter 17 - part 1
Chapter 17 - part 2
Chapter 18
Chapter 19 - part 1
Chapter 19 - part 2
Chapter 20 - part 1
Chapter 20 - part 2
Chapter 20 - part 2
Chapter 21
Chapter 22

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