JC was NOT the messiah!
- Thread starter Elia
- Start date
I used to not use electricity on Shabbat. I love the Jewish ways.
Thanks. I grew up thinking "Messiah" was Hebrew.
What does "meshiach" mean?
Well, I don't know how else to take it but to understand that you are saying that the G_D of Israel really didn't mean what He said, when He said that He would 'dwell' in the midst of the people of Israel.
2Ch 7:1 As soon as Solomon finished his prayer, fire came down from heaven and consumed the burnt offering and the sacrifices, and the glory of Y-H-W-H filled the temple.
2Ch 7:2 And the priests could not enter the house of Y-H-W-H , because the glory of Y-H-W-H filled Y-H-W-H's house.
What was it that filled the house of Y-H-W-H. Is the glory of Y-H-W-H, not Y-H-W-H, Himself?
CD2man
New member
Hey Elia, welcome to TOL!
Can you provide passages of Messianic prophecies that Jesus Christ did not fulfill?
In reference to your link: 1 Chronicles 3:10, 11, 12, 13, 14, 15, 16 mentions 18 generations, from Solomon to Jehoiachin (Jeconiah). However, Matthew 1:6, 7, 8, 9, 10, 11, only mentions 14 of them. That makes me wonder if that was in fact a mistake, right?
Actually, I didn't say that, Hunter. But I'm glad you gave yourself a good laugh. :chuckle:
And it's chickENman. I haven't been chickman for 20 years.
Well, cman, I dig chicks, and most know that they dig me.
Consider the context, and what cometh before, and after, and to whom written, and why:
"Act 7:48 Howbeit the most High dwelleth not in temples made with hands; as saith the prophet,
Act 7:49 Heaven is my throne, and earth is my footstool: what house will ye build me? saith the Lord: or what is the place of my rest?"
Do not ignore what was before said, and to whom it was addressed, and why.
Acts 7:44-46
The context:
Here Stephen is making it very clear to the Sanhedrin that it is fatal to ignore the facts pertaining to the Lord Jesus Christ.
44Our fathers had the tabernacle of witness in the wilderness, as he had appointed, speaking unto Moses, that he should make it according to the fashion that he had seen.
5Which also our fathers that came after brought in with Jesus into the possession of the Gentiles, whom God drave out before the face of our fathers, unto the days of David;
46Who found favour before God, and desired to find a tabernacle for the God of Jacob.
The religious leaders of the Jews knew about the tabernacle- this was, and is basic history to the Hebrews. But did they know what it was, and why it was there? Stephen is addressing these questions in his argument(reasons for a conclusion) to them, and testifying to the authenticity of the Lord Jesus Christ.
The tabernacle was a witness. And to what?The first thought is that It was a witness of the LORD God, for He abode in the holy Place. To king David, the LORD God spoke through the prophet- 2 Samuel 7:6:
"Whereas I have not dwelt in any house since the time that I brought up the children of Israel out of Egypt, even to this day, but have walked in a tent and in a tabernacle."
Thus, the tabernacle was a witness of the LORD God, and to the LORD God, but that is not all. In Acts 7:44 the LORD God told His servant Moses
"that he should make it according to the fashion that he had seen."
The LORD God showed Moses "the real deal":
"And look that thou make them after their pattern, which was shewed thee in the mount." Exodus 25:40
"Who serve unto the example and shadow of heavenly things, as Moses was admonished of God when he was about to make the tabernacle: for, See, saith he, that thou make all things according to the pattern shewed to thee in the mount." Hebrews 8:5,
The tabernacle was to be a type, or a picture/symbol/pattern. Of what or who is it a type? The Lord Jesus Christ. For eg., the altar is a picture of the cross, and the shed blood of the new covenant. The "mercy seat" is the propitiation referred to in Romans 3:25- for our sins. And hence, this gives meaning to the Saviour's words, speaking of the OT in its entirety- "Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me"(John 5:39).
The tabernacle was the center of worship for the Jews under the law of Moses. They could not approach a holy LORD God in any other place, for the LORD God was there in it. He showed this to the Israelites ,even while they were in the wilderness, by revealing Himself as a cloud by day, and a pillar of fire by night. The glory of God was present with them:
"So it was alway: the cloud covered it by day, and the appearance of fire by night." Numbers 9:16:
Moving forward in time, after the temple was built, the Jews had to go to Jerusalem to worship-no choice. And hence, the Lord Jesus Christ, at eight days old,is taken to Jerusalem to present Him to the Lord, per Luke 2:22. Later, at age 12, He goes to Jerusalem after the custom of the feast of the Passover. Thus, they could not worship the LORD God anywhere else. The LORD God was there in the tabernacle. He was there later in the temple. Even those Jews, and proselytes, who were "afar off"(Acts 2:39), from foreign lands made the pilgrimage to Jerusalem for the feast days, as was true at the time of Pentecost. Survey Acts 2:5:
"And there were dwelling at Jerusalem Jews, devout men, out of every nation under heaven."
The tabernacle was the center of the LORD God's dealing with His people; but was only a type, or picture, or pattern, of "the real deal." It's intent was to direct God's chosen people to the Lord Jesus Christ(Gal. 3:24)
The tabernacle was a witness of the Lord Jesus Christ, God in the flesh, and Stephen's mission was to open the blind Sanhedrin's eyes.
For forty years the Hebrews carried the tabernacle across the wilderness, and finally under Joshua's leadership(another type of the Lord Jesus Christ), it was brought into the promised Land. Joshua , a deliverer, brought the entire nation into the land, and drove out the pagan inhabitants. The Lord Jesus Christ, as the anti type,will again deliver the Jews from all their enemies, and give to them a promised land, the Kingdom of Heaven on earth.
Acts 7:45 gives the credit of this deliverance to the LORD God, and without the tabernacle, He would not have been present with them to perform such an act. But they did not understand the purpose of the tabernacle. They were to put their faith in the One Who commanded them to build the tabernacle, the One Who lived in the tabernacle, and not in the physical box itself. This is where they did "error." They took more pride in the physical structure, than the One Who commanded it. As an example- the 12 in Matthew 24:1 came to the Lord Jesus Christ, to point out to Him the buildings of the temple. They had the LORD God Himself with them, and yet they were lusting/glorying in the man-made structure. And hence, the context of Acts 7:48-49...
"the most High dwelleth not in temples made with hands;...... what house will ye build me? "
The Lord Jesus Christ tells the 12, in Matthew 24:2 :
"And Jesus said unto them, See ye not all these things? verily I say unto you, There shall not be left here one stone upon another, that shall not be thrown down.
They were clueless here.
Today, obviously, there is no temple in Jerusalem, or anywhere else in the world. Are we to conclude then, that the LORD God is inaccessible? Under the law, they could only contact the LORD God in the tabernacle, or in the temple. In this present dispensation, we don't need the temple, because we do have "the real deal." We need not desire a type/pattern/ picture, since the Christ lives in our hearts. All earthly buildings are temporary and no structure made on this earth will last forever. If a building lasts for a couple of hundred years, it is a precious heritage- but still temporary. Did the Sanhedrin realize that the temple in Jerusalem was temporary? Had they stopped to consider that this was the third temple built by Israel? Solomon's temple lasted until the captivity. Then Ezra built it again after the Babylonian exile. The one in the four "gospels", and Acts is called Herod's temple-it took 46 years to build. The LORD God appointed, and approved the temple, but the Jews misunderstood, and misinterpreted its reality and purpose.
Stephen sought to direct the attention of the Sanhedrin to the reality of the temple, in that it totally pointed to the coming Messiah, the Christ, the LORD Jesus Christ. They were performing the fatal act of blotting Him out of their minds-the blasphemy of the Holy Spirit..
Acts 7:47-50-the context
Where is the LORD God? Where does He live? The religious leaders of the Jews had a false hope. They had a beautiful temple, made exactly like Solomon's temple. They were confident that the LORD God was with them, dwelling in the temple in the holy of holies. Wrong assumption on their part-Stephen's argument
"But Solomon built him an house. Howbeit the most High dwelleth not in temples made with hands; as saith the prophet,Heaven is my throne, and earth is my footstool: what house will ye build me? saith the Lord: or what is the place of my rest?Hath not my hand made all these things?"
Solomon, David's Son, built the great temple in the city of David, Jerusalem. At the time of the dedication of that temple, after the king prayed, 2 Chr. 5:14 says...
"... for the glory of the LORD had filled the house of God."
The LORD God commanded Israel to build a sanctuary. There, He could meet with them. The structure was made with hands, and that was the place, the only place, they might approach the holy LORD God.
So, the context of Stephen's "the most High dwelleth not in temples made with hands"?
How could the LORD God of creation, the vast universe,the One Who filleth all in all, be confined to such a small space? Speaking about the temple, Solomon said in 1 Kings 8:27....
"But will God indeed dwell on the earth? behold, the heaven and heaven of heavens cannot contain thee; how much less this house that I have builded?"
How then, could one think that a man-made temple,"made with hands," would contain Him? The temple in Jerusalem was called God's house, even by the Lord Jesus Christ:
"And said unto them that sold doves, Take these things hence; make not my Father's house an house of merchandise." John 2:16
If the LORD God did not dwell there, how could it be called His house? It was the place in which God chose to meet with His people, as was the demand of the law of Moses. So, at the time of Acts, the glory of God was not filling the temple in Jerusalem. First, consider when the temple was rebuilt. In the book of Ezra ,where He supervised the rebuilding of the temple, there is no mention of the glory of God entering, or dwelling in the temple, as it had both in the Tabernacle in the wilderness and in the temple built by Solomon. The temple which existed in Jerusalem during the Acts period was known as Herod's Temple, and was started in 20 B.C,. and completed in 26 A.D. This temple was truly the work of man, "made with hands." and there was no God-given authority to build it.
Another reason that the glory of God did not fill the temple during the Acts period:When the Lord Jesus Christ hung on the cross, the veil of the temple was rent from top to bottom-Matthew 27:51...
"And, behold, the veil of the temple was rent in twain from the top to the bottom; and the earth did quake, and the rocks rent;"
As it was true that the LORD God dwelt in that holy place, and no man could look upon His glory and live, except the priest once each year, then what would have happened to those worshiping in the temple?
At the time the veil was rent, the LORD God ceased to dwell in any temple made with hands. It had been the brain-child of the king de facto, and Stephen goes on to prove this by quoting from the prophet Isaiah, in chapter 66:1...
"Thus saith the LORD, The heaven is my throne, and the earth is my footstool: where is the house that ye build unto me? and where is the place of my rest?"
Heaven is the throne of the LORD God, and that is where He dwells now. So why is it that men build a church, a shrine, a holy place, using man's terms and wisdom, and treat it as a dwelling place of God? The Apostle Paul, in his sermon on Mars Hill made a similar statement in Acts 17: 24 when he said,
"God that made the world and all things therein, seeing that He is Lord of heaven and earth, dwelleth not in temples made with hands, Neither is worshipped with men's hands."
Where is God now? God the Father is in heaven. The Lord Jesus Christ is in Heaven, seated at the right hand of the Father (Romans 8:34). According to Acts 2: 34,35, the Lord Jesus Christ is on the right hand of the Father, until all His foes are made His footstool, and that will be when He returns to set up His millennial kingdom, as King, on earth. And then will the feast of Tabernacles be realized-God with us.
That is the context. The end.
The name “David” in Hebrew numerology adds up to 14.
Mat_1:17 makes a summary of the three lists, fourteen in each by counting David twice and omitting several, a sort of mnemonic device that is common for memorization. Jewish reckoning did not require every single name to satisfy a geneology.
I thought numerology was pagan.
Numerology is the study of numbers. To study is to understand in order to become better users of what is studied. Numerology, astrology, astronomy, Satanism, and all cults alike, can, however, be pagan, if they are in fact pulling you away from what is best.
What is best?
With fruit on the side, please?
Elia
Well-known member
Bs'd
So you are not Jewish?
"Messiah" is a not totally correct transliteration of the Hebrew word "meshiach", in which the "ch" in the end is pronounced in the same way as in the Scottish word "loch".
It means "anointed one". It was the custom to anoint kings with oil before they came to power. There were already many anointed kings in Jewish history. Read for instance I Samuel 9:27 to10:1; Here Saul is anointed by Samuel the prophet. And thereby he became a messiah, an anointed one, See Samuel 11:13 up to 12:3: Here in verse 3 king Saul is called G.ds anointed, in the Hebrew 'meshiach'. So also king Saul was a messiah. Look in I Samuel 16:12-13, here the prophet Samuel anoints David, the Hebrew verb for anointing is 'mashach', and he becomes an anointed one, as we can read in II Samuel 23:1; "David the son of Jesse said, and the man who was raised up on high, the anointed (in the Hebrew 'meshiach') of the G.d of Jacob, and the sweet psalmist of Israel, said; …"
I Kings 1:39; "And Zadok the priest took an horn of oil out of the tabernacle, and anointed (Hebrew verb 'mashach') Solomon. And they blew the trumpet, and all the people said; G.d save king Solomon." Also Solomon was an anointed one, or messiah: II Chronicles 6:42, here king Solomon prays: "O Lord turn not away the face of thine anointed, …" In the Hebrew: 'meshiach'.
However, JC was never anointed to be king by a priest and/or prophet, so he was not a messiah.
Eliyahu
Elia
Well-known member
Bs'd
Many times the Torah speaks in metaphors which are not to be taken literally.
I think it was His glory. Hashem himself is not physical, so He does not occupy one single space.
It is just that in the Temple His presence was more intense.
Eliyahu
BabyChristian
New member
OMG then he was a lunatic, a liar or who he stated he was. No one has been like him before or after. Your choice.
The God of the O.T. wasn't fair to women whereas Jesus was. What do you think about that? Or do you still believe in polygamy and all that other stuff. Doubtful.
Elia
Well-known member
Bs'd
Sure, my pleasure.
This is from chapter 3 of my home page, here to be found: http://mountzion.freewebpage.org
Micha 5:2-9; "But thou Bethlehem Ephratah, though thou be little among the thousands of Judah, yet out of thee shall he come forth unto me that is to be ruler in Israel; whose goings forth have been from of old, from everlasting. Therefore will he give them up, until the time that she which travaileth hath brought forth: then the remnant of his brethren shall return unto the children of Israel. And he shall stand and feed in the strength of the LORD, in the majesty of the name of the LORD his God; and they shall abide: for NOW shall he be great unto the ends of the earth. And this man shall be the peace, when the Assyrian shall come into our land: and when he shall tread in our palaces, then shall we raise against him seven shepherds, and eight principal men. And they shall waste the land of Assyria with the sword, and the land of Nimrod in the entrances thereof: thus shall he deliver us from the Assyrian, when he cometh into our land, and when he treadeth within our borders. And the remnant of Jacob shall be in the midst of many people as a dew from the LORD, as the showers upon the grass, that tarrieth not for man, nor waiteth for the sons of men. And the remnant of Jacob shall be among the Gentiles in the midst of many people as a lion among the beasts of the forest, as a young lion among the flocks of sheep: who, if he go through, both treadeth down, and teareth in pieces, and none can deliver. Thine hand shall be lifted up upon thine adversaries, and all thine enemies shall be cut off."
Here we have very clearly physical redemption from earthly enemies: "And they shall waste the land of Assyria with the sword", "Thine hand shall be lifted up upon thine adversaries, and all thine enemies shall be cut off." These are very clear verses that can not be misinterpreted; when the messiah comes the Jewish enemies are going to be slaughtered. And the one coming forth from Bethlehem is to be a ruler in Israel, that is a king, or maybe nowadays a president, but not a wandering preacher and miracle healer.
.........Zacheriah 9:9-10; "Rejoice greatly, O daughter of Zion; shout, O daughter of Jerusalem: behold, thy King cometh unto thee: he is just, and having salvation; lowly, and riding upon an ***, and upon a colt the foal of an ***. And I will cut off the chariot from Ephraim, and the horse from Jerusalem, and the battle bow shall be cut off: and he shall speak peace unto the heathen: and his dominion shall be from sea even to sea, and from the river even to the ends of the earth."
They say that he did ride on a donkey, like the whole Middle East in those days, but that is where it stops. He did not bring any peace, the battle bow, the horses and the chariots, symbols of war, were not cut off from Jerusalem, and his dominion was not from sea to sea and to the ends of the earth; as a matter of fact, he did not have any dominion at all.
In order to get around this problem, the Christian church invented the "second coming". However, nowhere in the Hebrew scriptures is it written that the messiah would come once, get himself killed, and come again in a second coming. This is a pure rationalization of Jesus' failure to function in any way as a messiah. Nowhere in any of the above prophecies does it indicate that there will be a gap of at least 2000 years between the birth of the messiah and the redemption. Nowhere does it speak about a messiah being tortured to death and coming back thousands of years later.
.........Jeremiah 23:5-6; "Behold, the days come, saith the LORD, that I will raise unto David a righteous Branch, and a King shall reign and prosper, and shall execute judgment and justice in the earth. In his days Judah shall be saved, and Israel shall dwell safely: and this is his name whereby he shall be called, THE LORD OUR RIGHTEOUSNESS."
..........Jeremiah 33:14-16: "IN THOSE DAYS AND AT THAT TIME, will I cause the Branch of righteousness to grow up unto David; and he shall execute judgment and righteousness in the land. IN THOSE DAYS shall Judah be saved, and Jerusalem shall dwell safely: and this is the name wherewith she shall be called, The LORD our righteousness."
When the branch of righteousness springs forth to David, when the messiah comes, THEN, IN THOSE DAYS, Judah will be saved and Jerusalem shall dwell safely. That means that it is impossible to squeeze in two thousand or more years between the coming of the messiah and the redemption of Judah and Jerusalem. Out goes the 'second coming'. However, there wasn't any redemption in the days of Jesus. Forty years after his death, in 70 CE, Jerusalem was totally destroyed by the Romans, the second Temple was burned down, and the Jews exiled. No way that the above prophecy was fulfilled.
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.......... Isaiah 11; "And there shall come forth a rod out of the stem of Jesse, and a Branch shall grow out of his roots: And the spirit of the LORD shall rest upon him, the spirit of wisdom and understanding, the spirit of counsel and might, the spirit of knowledge and of the fear of the LORD; And shall make him of quick understanding in the fear of the LORD: and he shall not judge after the sight of his eyes, neither reprove after the hearing of his ears: But with righteousness shall he judge the poor, and reprove with equity for the meek of the earth: and he shall smite the earth with the rod of his mouth, and with the breath of his lips shall he slay the wicked. And righteousness shall be the girdle of his loins, and faithfulness the girdle of his reins. The wolf also shall dwell with the lamb, and the leopard shall lie down with the kid; and the calf and the young lion and the fatling together; and a little child shall lead them. And the cow and the bear shall feed; their young ones shall lie down together: and the lion shall eat straw like the ox. And the sucking child shall play on the hole of the asp, and the weaned child shall put his hand on the cockatrice' den. They shall not hurt nor destroy in all my holy mountain: for the earth shall be full of the knowledge of the LORD, as the waters cover the sea. And in that day there shall be a root of Jesse, which shall stand for an ensign of the people; to it shall the Gentiles seek: and his rest shall be glorious."
Also here we have a messiah who is going to kill the evil people: "And he shall smite the earth with the rod of his mouth, and with the breath of his lips shall he slay the wicked." And after that we get the better world, when it says: "The wolf also shall dwell with the lamb, and the leopard shall lie down with the kid; and the calf and the young lion and the fatling together; and a little child shall lead them etc." This is what is supposed to happen, as soon as there shall come forth a rod out of the stem of Jesse (the father of King David) and a Branch shall grow out of his roots; that is as soon as the messiah comes. Nowhere here is mentioned that the messiah will be killed and that these prophecies will happen at least 2000 years later. On the contrary; when the messiah comes redemption comes. And also for this messianic prophecy you don't have to be a brain surgeon or a rocket scientist in order to see that it is not fulfilled. Nothing of this all was done by Jesus. Conclusion: He was not the messiah.
Eliyahu light unto the nations
"Hear Israel, Y-H-W-H is our God, Y-H-W-H is ONE!" Deut 6:4
"All the peoples walk each in the name of his god, but as for us; we will walk in the name of Y-H-W-H our God forever and ever!" Mica 4:5
This message is sent to you from Mount Zion, Jerusalem, Israel.
"From Zion shall go forth the law, and the word of God from Jerusalem." Isaiah 2:3, Mica 4:2
Elia
Well-known member
Bs'd
Leaving out a few names is done more often, also in the Tanach.
However, his claim that "there were 14 generations between the Babylonian exile and David", is simply wrong. It were 18.
Eliyahu
BabyChristian
New member
Not another know-it-all that thinks the genealogy wasn't examined before the N.T. was written. It was written by people that knew the genealogy as well as the next Jew. And I know that includes you since you didn't live in those times.
Give me the proverbial break.
BabyChristian
New member
You do know that the Tanach speaks of having sex with very young females right? And as with Islam that's just fine.