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  • #76
    Originally posted by Knight
    Let's assume that we have a friend and that friend asserts... "all cars (without exception) are made in Germany".

    How many examples of cars made in other places than Germany do we need to provide him to prove that statement wrong?
    Well, this analogy kind of busts down a bit in theology.

    Here is another way to look at it. At Multnomah, there were a few OVer's and Gary Friesen's book of course, which definitely leads to at least a partial OpenView.
    I'd think that it cannot be all that clear or the whole staff would have moved over to at least a partial OV. They are very committed to scripture and indeed on top of their game in this area. I'm alright for a Multnomah guy. I have a wholistic theology formed fairly solid, but being a global thinker, I tend to approach theology from that perspective. There are answers to the dilemmas even if some of the specifics allude me for the time being.
    Last edited by Lon; February 18th, 2007, 02:10 AM.
    My New Years Resolution: 1 Peter 3:15
    Omniscient without man's qualification. John 1:3 "Nothing"
    Colossians 1:17 "Nothing" John 15:5 "Nothing"
    Mighty, ALL mighty (omnipotent). Revelation 1:8
    No possible limitation Isaiah 40:25 Joshua 24:15
    Infinite (Omnipresent) Psalm 145:3 Hebrews 4:13

    ? Yep

    Now to Him who is able to do exceeding abundantly above all that we ask or think... Amen. -Ephesians 3:20 & 21

    ... when I became an adult, I set aside childish ways. Titus 3:10 Ephesians 4:29-32; 5:11

    Separation of church and State is not atheism "We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights..."

    Comment


    • #77
      Originally posted by Lonster
      Well, this analogy kind of busts down a bit in theology.
      My analogy has nothing to do with theology, it's not an analogy for my theological position but instead an analogy to help understand the difference between things that are settled and things that are exhaustively settled.

      So... how about you go ahead and answer, and then we can discuss it.

      Here it is again....


      Let's assume that we have a friend and that friend asserts... "all cars (without exception) are made in Germany".

      How many examples of cars made in other places than Germany do we need to provide him to prove that statement wrong?
      Also be sure to.... Join TOL on Facebook | Follow TOL on Twitter
      TOL Newbies CLICK HERE or....upgrade your TOL today!

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      • #78
        Originally posted by Knight
        My analogy has nothing to do with theology, it's not an analogy for my theological position but instead an analogy to help understand the difference between things that are settled and things that are exhaustively settled.

        So... how about you go ahead and answer, and then we can discuss it.

        Here it is again....


        Let's assume that we have a friend and that friend asserts... "all cars (without exception) are made in Germany".

        How many examples of cars made in other places than Germany do we need to provide him to prove that statement wrong?
        One. Proving this for OV/SV automatically makes OV?
        My New Years Resolution: 1 Peter 3:15
        Omniscient without man's qualification. John 1:3 "Nothing"
        Colossians 1:17 "Nothing" John 15:5 "Nothing"
        Mighty, ALL mighty (omnipotent). Revelation 1:8
        No possible limitation Isaiah 40:25 Joshua 24:15
        Infinite (Omnipresent) Psalm 145:3 Hebrews 4:13

        ? Yep

        Now to Him who is able to do exceeding abundantly above all that we ask or think... Amen. -Ephesians 3:20 & 21

        ... when I became an adult, I set aside childish ways. Titus 3:10 Ephesians 4:29-32; 5:11

        Separation of church and State is not atheism "We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights..."

        Comment


        • #79
          Originally posted by Lonster
          One.
          Exactly.

          This is the point Pastor Cook had such a hard time understanding when debating Bob Enyart, and also later in his discussion with Will (the last caller in part 2 of the open line show).

          Proving this for OV/SV automatically makes OV?
          Well.... one example of an event that wasn't settled in advance would certainly disprove an exhaustively settled history/present/future.
          Last edited by Knight; February 18th, 2007, 11:13 PM.
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          • #80
            Originally posted by Knight
            Exactly.

            This is the point Pastor Cook had such a hard time understanding when debating Bob Enyart, and also later in his discussion with Will (the last caller in part 2 of the open line show).

            Well.... one example of an event that wasn't settled in advance would certainly disprove an exhaustively settled history/present/future.
            You are talking about the immutability, 'that God doesn't change in nature?' Which point specifically are you addressing?

            'God does not change in His essential nature.' Are you talking about 'God being able to have a new thought?' Luke2:52 Jesus increased in favor 'change/ no change.'

            Or Jeremiah 31/Hebrews 8/ Isaiah 43. 'God forgets our sins?'
            My New Years Resolution: 1 Peter 3:15
            Omniscient without man's qualification. John 1:3 "Nothing"
            Colossians 1:17 "Nothing" John 15:5 "Nothing"
            Mighty, ALL mighty (omnipotent). Revelation 1:8
            No possible limitation Isaiah 40:25 Joshua 24:15
            Infinite (Omnipresent) Psalm 145:3 Hebrews 4:13

            ? Yep

            Now to Him who is able to do exceeding abundantly above all that we ask or think... Amen. -Ephesians 3:20 & 21

            ... when I became an adult, I set aside childish ways. Titus 3:10 Ephesians 4:29-32; 5:11

            Separation of church and State is not atheism "We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights..."

            Comment


            • #81
              Originally posted by Lonster
              You are talking about the immutability, 'that God doesn't change in nature?' Which point specifically are you addressing?

              'God does not change in His essential nature.' Are you talking about 'God being able to have a new thought?' Luke2:52 Jesus increased in favor 'change/ no change.'

              Or Jeremiah 31/Hebrews 8/ Isaiah 43. 'God forgets our sins?'
              More like....

              Unfulfilled prophecy i.e., Jonah etc.

              If one such example exists then an exhaustively settled past/present/future cannot be accurate.
              Also be sure to.... Join TOL on Facebook | Follow TOL on Twitter
              TOL Newbies CLICK HERE or....upgrade your TOL today!

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              • #82
                Originally posted by Knight
                More like....

                Unfulfilled prophecy i.e., Jonah etc.

                If one such example exists then an exhaustively settled past/present/future cannot be accurate.
                This position recognizes instances, but as I remember it, the instances are so few as to be inconsequential. I believe, as I said, if not exhaustive, most nearly so. God chooses to forget. The Calvinist position is that God forgets like I forget. I don't really forget, but the incident is forgiven and I move on and don't entertain the thought.

                I am okay with a belief that He can literally forget if He desires whether this is the case or not. Again this is why I believe in extensive foreknowledge and not concerned overly of exhaustive foreknowledge. Read Matthew 24. It is so eerily predictive that I cannot fathom anything less than extensive foreknowledge. There are so many points of not only prediction, but 'foresight.' Again, we agree to disagree. I believe God definitely has very clear foreknowledge from scripture. I think there is a tendency to throw the baby out with the bathwater on greek philosophy. Many of their definitions ring very true if not 100% God is Almighty. God does know all. God is everywhere present. God does not change in perfection. Everything God does is perfect and without error.

                I believe there has to be agreement on these, even if they are qualified because we know these things about Him from scripture. We do not believe as some of the greeks that God is impersonal. His is the defining poiint of every pure emotion. Without God, love is self-centered. Without God, justice is vigilantism. Without God, truth is relative. Without Him, anger and jealousy are meaningless and lead to selfish acts. We have to come to an understanding on our differences here. I believe God cannot love me anymore, because He already loves beyond my ability to grasp. What I can do, is allow His love to permeate my life more deeply. I do not believe God is as emotionally stimulated as OV sees Him. He is already perfect in love and the definition of it. He is God, how could He be any more than what He is? He is the ultimate and the supreme. There is no higher love than He. Every expression of love extrudes from Him.

                1Co 4:7 For who concedes you any superiority? What do you have that you did not receive? And if you received it, why do you boast as though you did not?
                My New Years Resolution: 1 Peter 3:15
                Omniscient without man's qualification. John 1:3 "Nothing"
                Colossians 1:17 "Nothing" John 15:5 "Nothing"
                Mighty, ALL mighty (omnipotent). Revelation 1:8
                No possible limitation Isaiah 40:25 Joshua 24:15
                Infinite (Omnipresent) Psalm 145:3 Hebrews 4:13

                ? Yep

                Now to Him who is able to do exceeding abundantly above all that we ask or think... Amen. -Ephesians 3:20 & 21

                ... when I became an adult, I set aside childish ways. Titus 3:10 Ephesians 4:29-32; 5:11

                Separation of church and State is not atheism "We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights..."

                Comment


                • #83
                  Originally posted by Lonster
                  This position recognizes instances, but as I remember it, the instances are so few as to be inconsequential. I believe, as I said, if not exhaustive, most nearly so. God chooses to forget. The Calvinist position is that God forgets like I forget. I don't really forget, but the incident is forgiven and I move on and don't entertain the thought.
                  Again you are referring to the past, we all agree that the past is settled.

                  I am okay with a belief that He can literally forget if He desires whether this is the case or not. Again this is why I believe in extensive foreknowledge and not concerned overly of exhaustive foreknowledge.
                  So...... if I understand you correctly you believe God knows more about the future than He does the past.

                  That's a new one.

                  I do not believe God is as emotionally stimulated as OV sees Him. He is already perfect in love and the definition of it. He is God, how could He be any more than what He is?
                  This is the most tragic part of the settled view. The emotionless God.

                  Lonster can you grieve God?
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                  • #84
                    Originally posted by Knight

                    Lonster can you grieve God?
                    Sure, but I'm a big-picture person and I believe God is moreso. Have you ever looked at the temperments? We all have a bent one way or the other in our temperments as to how we see God. Go do a temperment test online somewhere and see where you are. Then ask yourself "how do I see God?" After that, recognize at least one bit of information: We all make God into an image of our choosing (egocentrism) to a degree. It is when we begin to appreciate another's filter, like I have been doing here, that we get away from our own lenses and begin to appreciate who God is from a different perspective. We need to apply this perspective back into scripture to appreciate another's lens. Sometimes I think God is the Unmoved Mover and other times, especially when I'm in need, He is the most moved. Which is the more accurate? If God is perfect, I think you get too hung up on whether God has a consistent even keel in His emotions. My kids are way more emotional than I am. In a crisis, you'd want to come to me. I think clearly, and while I sympathize, the biggest need is to take care of the situation. Panic helps nothing. I believe God is like this. Is He bothered at all about our crisis? I say yes, but He has a perfect reaction and I do not believe He panics. He is never afraid. This to me is complete control. God is not fearful. I have emotions that God simply does not share. He does not panic. He is not afraid. He is perfectly angry. Love, concern, compassion are behind any angry act. He isn't a mover when it comes to this. Rather we learn from scripture that He is 'slow' to anger. Quite the opposite for us, where anger comes at the drop of a hat. If God is the most moved mover, it is not passionately thoughtless. God never moves before His perfect timing. He moves almost in a cold calculated way as to be labelled 'stone-like.' He moves perfectly. The reason we assess that God is like this, isn't that we believe Him to be emotionless, but that we do not understand a God of perfect emotion because we will never see Him rightly through the eyes of imperfect emotion. God is perfect in nature, perfect in emotion.
                    My New Years Resolution: 1 Peter 3:15
                    Omniscient without man's qualification. John 1:3 "Nothing"
                    Colossians 1:17 "Nothing" John 15:5 "Nothing"
                    Mighty, ALL mighty (omnipotent). Revelation 1:8
                    No possible limitation Isaiah 40:25 Joshua 24:15
                    Infinite (Omnipresent) Psalm 145:3 Hebrews 4:13

                    ? Yep

                    Now to Him who is able to do exceeding abundantly above all that we ask or think... Amen. -Ephesians 3:20 & 21

                    ... when I became an adult, I set aside childish ways. Titus 3:10 Ephesians 4:29-32; 5:11

                    Separation of church and State is not atheism "We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights..."

                    Comment


                    • #85
                      Knight asks.... "Lonster can you grieve God?"

                      Lonster responds.... "sure"

                      Yet just a post ago you stated....
                      I do not believe God is as emotionally stimulated as OV sees Him.
                      If you have the ability to grieve God then God can be emotionally stimulated.

                      God is a Living God, not a stone idol.

                      The Bible is filled end to end with examples of God being emotionally stimulated.
                      Psalms 78:56 Yet they tested and provoked the Most High God, And did not keep His testimonies, 57 But turned back and acted unfaithfully like their fathers; They were turned aside like a deceitful bow. 58 For they provoked Him to anger with their high places, And moved Him to jealousy with their carved images.
                      Also be sure to.... Join TOL on Facebook | Follow TOL on Twitter
                      TOL Newbies CLICK HERE or....upgrade your TOL today!

                      Comment


                      • #86
                        Originally posted by Knight
                        Knight asks.... "Lonster can you grieve God?"

                        Lonster responds.... "sure"

                        Yet just a post ago you stated.... If you have the ability to grieve God then God can be emotionally stimulated.

                        God is a Living God, not a stone idol.

                        The Bible is filled end to end with examples of God being emotionally stimulated.
                        Psalms 78:56 Yet they tested and provoked the Most High God, And did not keep His testimonies, 57 But turned back and acted unfaithfully like their fathers; They were turned aside like a deceitful bow. 58 For they provoked Him to anger with their high places, And moved Him to jealousy with their carved images.
                        No discrepancy there, just a qualified agreement. I do not believe God becomes jealous at the drop of a hat. He is slow to anger.
                        My New Years Resolution: 1 Peter 3:15
                        Omniscient without man's qualification. John 1:3 "Nothing"
                        Colossians 1:17 "Nothing" John 15:5 "Nothing"
                        Mighty, ALL mighty (omnipotent). Revelation 1:8
                        No possible limitation Isaiah 40:25 Joshua 24:15
                        Infinite (Omnipresent) Psalm 145:3 Hebrews 4:13

                        ? Yep

                        Now to Him who is able to do exceeding abundantly above all that we ask or think... Amen. -Ephesians 3:20 & 21

                        ... when I became an adult, I set aside childish ways. Titus 3:10 Ephesians 4:29-32; 5:11

                        Separation of church and State is not atheism "We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights..."

                        Comment


                        • #87
                          Originally posted by Lonster
                          No discrepancy there, just a qualified agreement. I do not believe God becomes jealous at the drop of a hat. He is slow to anger.
                          OK fair enough, I am glad we basically agree.

                          Lets move on.

                          How about we talk about one of the most powerful evidences for Open Theism: Prophecy.

                          We have already discussed unfulfilled prophecy, so lets discus fulfilled prophecy or prophecy in general.

                          God tells us in the Bible why He gives us prophecies, what does He say is the reason for prophecy?

                          In other words.... if God wanted to He could just know what He planned to do, or what He knew we were about to do and keep it to Himself. Yet instead He often times interacts with us and tells us about future events that He plans to do or that He sees "coming down the road" for us. Why does He bother to tell us? Why does God prophesy?
                          Also be sure to.... Join TOL on Facebook | Follow TOL on Twitter
                          TOL Newbies CLICK HERE or....upgrade your TOL today!

                          Comment


                          • #88
                            Originally posted by Knight
                            Why does He bother to tell us? Why does God prophesy?
                            I was reading from post #5078 in "Open Theism." Prophecy just means " a prediction "

                            I think we agree on the definition but it takes on new meaning from our respective line of sight.

                            We'd need to discuss what is probable and plausible from our perspectives to appreciate how we see this.

                            If we look at unfulfilled prophecy, I think both of us have problems. Even though OV says God can change His mind, the logical conclusion is still the same from the skeptic. We both have a different system for understanding the passages but the skeptic isn't buying either of our responses. I think there is plenty of work here for both our positions to address.

                            A beginning example:
                            Ezekiel 26:1-14

                            The traditional view that God is going to bring several nations against Tyre v.3
                            and that Nebuchadnezzar plays part in the initial seige on the island of Tyre v.7-11

                            So considering v7-11

                            v7 Nebuchadnezzar does indeed lay seige
                            v8 He does ravish the surrounding lands and cities of Tyre
                            v9 He does build seige engines and the walls were attacked not just on the island of Tyre, but the surrounding walls and towers as well (The city was both on the mainland and the island).
                            v10ff Nebuchadnezzar does tear down the buildings to make Tyre island into an Isthmus and so he does toss the building material into the sea to further lay seige to the island as well.

                            The traditional perspective is that the prophecy was fulfilled even if the island did not not succumb at that time. because v3 said other nations would be involved and that the island is eventually seiged successfully as well by Alexander the Great.
                            My New Years Resolution: 1 Peter 3:15
                            Omniscient without man's qualification. John 1:3 "Nothing"
                            Colossians 1:17 "Nothing" John 15:5 "Nothing"
                            Mighty, ALL mighty (omnipotent). Revelation 1:8
                            No possible limitation Isaiah 40:25 Joshua 24:15
                            Infinite (Omnipresent) Psalm 145:3 Hebrews 4:13

                            ? Yep

                            Now to Him who is able to do exceeding abundantly above all that we ask or think... Amen. -Ephesians 3:20 & 21

                            ... when I became an adult, I set aside childish ways. Titus 3:10 Ephesians 4:29-32; 5:11

                            Separation of church and State is not atheism "We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights..."

                            Comment


                            • #89
                              Originally posted by Lonster
                              I was reading from post #5078 in "Open Theism." Prophecy just means " a prediction "

                              I think we agree on the definition but it takes on new meaning from our respective line of sight.

                              We'd need to discuss what is probable and plausible from our perspectives to appreciate how we see this.

                              If we look at unfulfilled prophecy, I think both of us have problems. Even though OV says God can change His mind, the logical conclusion is still the same from the skeptic. We both have a different system for understanding the passages but the skeptic isn't buying either of our responses. I think there is plenty of work here for both our positions to address.

                              A beginning example:
                              Ezekiel 26:1-14

                              The traditional view that God is going to bring several nations against Tyre v.3
                              and that Nebuchadnezzar plays part in the initial seige on the island of Tyre v.7-11

                              So considering v7-11

                              v7 Nebuchadnezzar does indeed lay seige
                              v8 He does ravish the surrounding lands and cities of Tyre
                              v9 He does build seige engines and the walls were attacked not just on the island of Tyre, but the surrounding walls and towers as well (The city was both on the mainland and the island).
                              v10ff Nebuchadnezzar does tear down the buildings to make Tyre island into an Isthmus and so he does toss the building material into the sea to further lay seige to the island as well.

                              The traditional perspective is that the prophecy was fulfilled even if the island did not not succumb at that time. because v3 said other nations would be involved and that the island is eventually seiged successfully as well by Alexander the Great.
                              OK, but you didn't answer my question. I am no longer talking about unfulfilled prophecy. I am now talking about prophecy in general.

                              Why does God tell us His predictions?

                              Why does God say He uses prophecy?

                              What is the purpose of prophecy?
                              Also be sure to.... Join TOL on Facebook | Follow TOL on Twitter
                              TOL Newbies CLICK HERE or....upgrade your TOL today!

                              Comment


                              • #90
                                Originally posted by Knight
                                OK, but you didn't answer my question. I am no longer talking about unfulfilled prophecy. I am now talking about prophecy in general.

                                Why does God tell us His predictions?

                                Why does God say He uses prophecy?

                                What is the purpose of prophecy?
                                To show that what God says is true. To glorify Himself. To intervene on our behalf. To give us peace. To build our faith. All of these are scriptural and the list goes on.
                                My New Years Resolution: 1 Peter 3:15
                                Omniscient without man's qualification. John 1:3 "Nothing"
                                Colossians 1:17 "Nothing" John 15:5 "Nothing"
                                Mighty, ALL mighty (omnipotent). Revelation 1:8
                                No possible limitation Isaiah 40:25 Joshua 24:15
                                Infinite (Omnipresent) Psalm 145:3 Hebrews 4:13

                                ? Yep

                                Now to Him who is able to do exceeding abundantly above all that we ask or think... Amen. -Ephesians 3:20 & 21

                                ... when I became an adult, I set aside childish ways. Titus 3:10 Ephesians 4:29-32; 5:11

                                Separation of church and State is not atheism "We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights..."

                                Comment

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