One on One: Can a Christin sin? Sozo and Knight discuss.

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Nathon Detroit

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Some state that a Christian is incapable of sin. They say that when a Christian does something that would normally be considered sinful we would now refer to it as something else (say like a "stupid act"). This of course is a bit meaningless since all we would really be doing is changing the name from "sin" to "stupid act" effectively changing nothing.

Furthermore.... the notion that a Christian cannot sin, unnecessarily confuses the gospel message. There is NO pay-off to this argument. The unbeliever sees the actions of Christians who sin and can recognize that behavior is sinful and then wonders why a Christian argues that Christians cannot sin! They either conclude that Christians are hypocrites or that the sinning person is not a Christian, either way it defeats the purpose of telling the lost that we need not be perfect.... that was Jesus job. :)

The Christian can sin, but thankfully that sin has already been paid for by the blood of Christ which of course is the liberty that God has so graciously given us.

Most importantly.... God inspired the apostle Paul to affirm that a Christian can indeed sin. This of course is the death-nail to those that argue that a Christian cannot sin.

1 Corinthians 8:6 yet for us there is one God, the Father, of whom are all things, and we for Him; and one Lord Jesus Christ, through whom are all things, and through whom we live. 7 However, there is not in everyone that knowledge; for some, with consciousness of the idol, until now eat it as a thing offered to an idol; and their conscience, being weak, is defiled. 8 But food does not commend us to God; for neither if we eat are we the better, nor if we do not eat are we the worse. 9 But beware lest somehow this liberty of yours become a stumbling block to those who are weak. 10 For if anyone sees you who have knowledge eating in an idol’s temple, will not the conscience of him who is weak be emboldened to eat those things offered to idols? 11 And because of your knowledge shall the weak brother perish, for whom Christ died? 12 But when you thus sin against the brethren, and wound their weak conscience, you sin against Christ.

Ephesians 4:25 Therefore, putting away lying, “Let each one of you speak truth with his neighbor,” for we are members of one another. 26 “Be angry, and do not sin”: do not let the sun go down on your wrath, 27 nor give place to the devil.

Romans 4:7 “Blessed are those whose lawless deeds are forgiven, And whose sins are covered; Blessed is the man to whom the LORD shall not impute sin.”

1Corinthians 6:17 But he who is joined to the Lord is one spirit with Him. 18 Flee sexual immorality. Every sin that a man does is outside the body, but he who commits sexual immorality sins against his own body.


In the end.... the Christian is capable of sin, but thankfully his sin is covered. That is the power of the gospel.
 

Sozo

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Thanks Knight! I'll be back after dinner. I really appreciate your willingness to gently discuss this.
 

Nathon Detroit

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Sozo, I would love your thoughts on the following...

Question..... Is stealing a sin?
Answer.... Yes.
Question.... Can a Christian steal something? Is he physically able?
Answer.... Yes.
Question.... Therefore, can a Christian sin?
Answer... Yes.
Question... Is a Christian condemned for that sin?
Answer.... No. Jesus paid the price for that sin. The Christian is forever identified with the payment Jesus made on he cross.
 

Sozo

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Knight said:
Sounds good.

You can tell me what you think sin is.

Paul says that the only way that we can know what sin is, is through the Law.

"I would not have come to know sin except through the Law"

"Now we know that whatever the Law says, it speaks to those who are under the Law, that every mouth may be closed, and all the world may become accountable to God; because by the works of the Law no flesh will be justified in His sight; for through the Law comes the knowledge of sin.

The Law reveals sin. That is it's purpose.

The word sin has been defined as: missing the mark amartanete

It is falling short of the glory (all that God is and does) of God.

It is anything short of perfection.

Sin is lawlessness.

"...apart from the Law sin is dead"

"...where there is no law, there also is no violation"

Would you like to add or remove anything from these?
 

Nathon Detroit

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Sozo said:
The word sin has been defined as: missing the mark amartanete

It is falling short of the glory (all that God is and does) of God.

It is anything short of perfection.

Sin is lawlessness.
Those are all good.

Here are a couple more....

Sin is, disobeying God's will.
Sin is, doing/engaging in immoral activities.

I think in the most general terms sin is doing something that God doesn't want us to do.

Sin can be a noun or a verb.

Just for yucks..... (from dictionary.com)
sin:
–noun
1. transgression of divine law: the sin of Adam.
2. any act regarded as such a transgression, esp. a willful or deliberate violation of some religious or moral principle.
3. any reprehensible or regrettable action, behavior, lapse, etc.; great fault or offense: It's a sin to waste time.

–verb (used without object)
4. to commit a sinful act.
5. to offend against a principle, standard, etc.

–verb (used with object)
6. to commit or perform sinfully: He sinned his crimes without compunction.
7. to bring, drive, etc., by sinning: He sinned his soul to perdition.​
 

Nathon Detroit

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Can we all agree that the following verse is talking about believers?
Titus 3:4 But when the kindness and the love of God our Savior toward man appeared, 5 not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to His mercy He saved us, through the washing of regeneration and renewing of the Holy Spirit, 6 whom He poured out on us abundantly through Jesus Christ our Savior, 7 that having been justified by His grace we should become heirs according to the hope of eternal life. 8 This is a faithful saying, and these things I want you to affirm constantly, that those who have believed in God should be careful to maintain good works. These things are good and profitable to men. :9 But avoid foolish disputes, genealogies, contentions, and strivings about the law; for they are unprofitable and useless. 10 Reject a divisive man after the first and second admonition,
It should be clear that Paul is talking to believers and saying that it isn't profitable or helpful to waste time with divisive brothers.

Sozo, do you agree Paul is addressing believers in the above text?


I think it's pretty well accepted that Paul was admonishing Titus to avoid things that promote wickedness among fellow believers.

And what's the next thing Paul says?

Titus 3:11 knowing that such a person is warped and sinning, being self-condemned.
Paul isn't saying the man is condemned to hell but he has condemned himself in regard to the brethren by acting sinful. (He has condemned himself as in other brothers shouldn't keep company with him.)

Paul says the same thing here....
2Thessalonians 3:13 But as for you, brethren, do not grow weary in doing good. 14 And if anyone does not obey our word in this epistle, note that person and do not keep company with him, that he may be ashamed. 15 Yet do not count him as an enemy, but admonish him as a brother.
In summary.... Christians can sin. Sinning Christians are not to be counted "as the enemy" but they are sinning none the less and it may be wise (depending on the severity of the sin) to not even keep company with them!
 

Sozo

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You want this to be over quickly, don't you? :sigh:

I don't have the time to respond to all of your posts appropriately. It would not be fair to you, or anyone else.

In your last post he is telling believers to avoid someone who is sinning, not that they are sinning.


I'll get back to your definitions post in a bit.
 

Nathon Detroit

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Sozo said:
You want this to be over quickly, don't you? :sigh:
Take your time.

In your last post he is telling believers to avoid someone who is sinning, not that they are sinning.
So then you reject that in verse 10 Paul is referring to believers? (3:10 Reject a divisive man after the first and second admonition)

If you reject that, you are the only person I have ever heard assert that (including multiple commentaries etc.). I would have to strongly disagree with your assessment. With all due respect I think you are covering your eyes just a bit to avoid a clear refutation of your position.

OK, take your time and respond when you can. I think I will go watch a movie. :)
 

Sozo

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Knight said:
Those are all good.

Here are a couple more....

Sin is, disobeying God's will.
God's will? :confused:

Do you mean rejecting the gospel? Obeying the Law? Making our bodies available to Him for His purposes? What do you mean by, God's will?

Sin is, doing/engaging in immoral activities.
The bible defines immoral as a male prostitute, and immorality as sexual perversion. I don't know how you define "immoral".

I think in the most general terms sin is doing something that God doesn't want us to do.
Then that would be everything.

Are you saying that you can examine your behavior and that you are doing that which is pleasing to God in the flesh?

Are you saying that you do not fall short of the glory of God at moments in your life?

Are you saying that there are times when you are as perfect as God in your behavior?

That there are times in your day when you do not miss the mark? That you do not violate the Law?

You're a better man than I am.

Sin can be a noun or a verb.
I'm glad you said that, but sin is not defined by a dictionary.

Just for yucks..... (from dictionary.com)
"Yuck" is right.
 

Sozo

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Knight said:
Take your time.

So then you reject that in verse 10 Paul is referring to believers? (3:10 Reject a divisive man after the first and second admonition)

If you reject that, you are the only person I have ever heard assert that (including multiple commentaries etc.). I would have to strongly disagree with your assessment.
He is warning the believers to reject someone who brings division. (like we all should with godrulz. However, since he has not been publically rebuked, and is encouraged to continue preaching a false gospel, I am obligated to continue warning other believers that there is a divisive man in the camp). A divisive man is literally a heretic.

With all due respect I think you are covering your eyes just a bit to avoid a clear refutation of your position.
What, you think I've never read that verse before? :rolleyes: Give me a break.

OK, take your time and respond when you can. I think I will go watch a movie.
Sin City?
 

Nathon Detroit

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Sozo said:
God's will? :confused:

Do you mean rejecting the gospel? Obeying the Law? Making our bodies available to Him for His purposes? What do you mean by, God's will?
Why do you make things so complicated?

When I say sin can be doing what is against God's will the statement is rather self explanatory isn't it? It is to do that which God doesn't want us to do.


Are you saying that you can examine your behavior and that you are doing that which is pleasing to God in the flesh?

Are you saying that you do not fall short of the glory of God at moments in your life?

Are you saying that there are times when you are as perfect as God in your behavior?

That there are times in your day when you do not miss the mark? That you do not violate the Law?

You're a better man than I am.
I don't understand those statement(s)/question(s). I certainly don't understand why you would ask me them in this context. If I thought I didn't miss the mark why would I be arguing that Christians can sin? :confused:

If you are trying to confuse me..... it's working.

I'm glad you said that, but sin is not defined by a dictionary.

"Yuck" is right.
I feel comfortable using the word sin as Paul used it in the Bible. I threw in the dictionary definition so all the cards would be on the table.
 

Nathon Detroit

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Sozo said:
He is warning the believers to reject someone who brings division. (like we all should with godrulz. However, since he has not been publically rebuked, and is encouraged to continue preaching a false gospel, I am obligated to continue warning other believers that there is a divisive man in the camp). A divisive man is literally a heretic.
And you believe that in the case of Titus 3 the divisive man is not a believer? :think: That's a bit odd, but you are free to think whatever you like.

The context seems rather obvious to me....

Titus 3:8 This is a faithful saying, and these things I want you to affirm constantly, that THE CONTEXT: those who have believed in God should be careful to maintain good works. These things are good and profitable to men. 9 THE SUBJECT: But avoid foolish disputes, genealogies, contentions, and strivings about the law; for they are unprofitable and useless. 10 THE ADVICE/EXAMPLE: Reject a divisive man after the first and second admonition, 11 THE CONCLUSION: knowing that such a person is warped and sinning, being self-condemned.​
All together now...
THE CONTEXT: those who have believed in God should
THE SUBJECT: avoid foolish disputes
THE ADVICE/EXAMPLE: Reject a divisive man
THE CONCLUSION: knowing that such a person is warped and sinning

What, you think I've never read that verse before? :rolleyes: Give me a break.
It's just one example of many that I can use. I am not going to get hung up over one or two verses when there is so much material that refutes your argument.

If you want you can go back to addressing the points I made earlier in the thread. :up:
 

Sozo

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Knight said:
When I say sin can be doing what is against God's will the statement is rather self explanatory isn't it? It is to do that which God doesn't want us to do.
I agree, that sin is doing anything that God does not want us to do.

That's a good definition! It agrees with my definition and with e4e's definition.

Sin is a contradiction of all that God is and wills.

In order for YOU to be a contradiction to God, you have to have a life that is contrary to God.

I'll say it your way...

In order to do anything that God does not want us to do, you have to have a life that is apart from God.

Is your life in the flesh, or in the Spirit? Is it in your body that is dead to God, or is it in your Spirit that is alive to God?

Who is the "us" in your sentence?

You may think that this is being semantical, or mystical, or impractical (I don't know), but I do know that Paul spent a great deal of his time trying to get this point across in all of his letters, because it was important to him (and therefore important to God), that a believer understand who he is in Christ. Who is the real (I'll use your TOL ID) Knight?

Are you a sinner or are you a child of God? Are you unrighteous or are you righteous? Are you in the flesh or in the Spirit? Are you under the Law or under grace?

I know what your answers are, and I know that you believe that who you were has died, and that your life is hidden in Christ in God, and that you are not your own. I know that you know that it is no longer YOU that lives, but that Christ lives in YOU. Jesus is your life.

Your identity is in Christ. He is your life. You are holy, righteous, blameless, complete, free from wrath, free from sin, free from the Law, and free from death.

Jesus said that everyone who lives and believes in Me shall never die.

Is your body going to die? Of course it is. Was Jesus lying? Of course not. Jesus knew then as Paul explains later that you are not that which dies. The body dies, and in fact is already dead because of sin. The spirit is alive because you are righteous in Him. You are not contrary to God. YOU do not do anything that God does not will. Your flesh does, but that is not who YOU are. YOU are a Christian, a child of God, born of the Spirit.

For YOU to sin, YOU would have to be in the flesh, under the Law, dead to God.
 

Sozo

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Knight said:
Furthermore.... the notion that a Christian cannot sin, unnecessarily confuses the gospel message. There is NO pay-off to this argument. The unbeliever sees the actions of Christians who sin and can recognize that behavior is sinful and then wonders why a Christian argues that Christians cannot sin! They either conclude that Christians are hypocrites or that the sinning person is not a Christian, either way it defeats the purpose of telling the lost that we need not be perfect.... that was Jesus job. :)
I'm confused by your last comment. We are to tell the lost that they need to be perfect. That is a major point in presenting the gospel.

What the lost see, is the church telling them that we are right because we don't do as many bad things as they do, and that if they would only become a Christian then they will stop doing as many bad things and be like us. That is the point Paul makes in Romans 2.

If doing right is the outworking standard or sign of our salvation, then when the lost meet that standard, they can boast of being no different than we are. When we believe that showing others that we "have it together" or "keep the Law", we offer them very little hope. But, when we show them that we are all on the same level, and that everyone’s "good works" is as "filthy rags" and that we are totally dependent on Christ, then we give the lost, hope, because anyone can do that! They need to see that we are set free fom sin by our identity in Christ. They need to see sin as it is defined by God, not as it is defined by man. They need the truth, not what they perceive to be truth.

Today is my daughter's 10th birthday, so I will respond to the verses you posted as time permits.
 

Nathon Detroit

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Sozo said:
What did you think of CabinetMaker's post?
I think it's excellent! I agree with 100%.

I also agree with the other ways the word sin is used. Like the way Paul uses it in his epistles.

I now know you like CabinetMakers use of the word sin what do you think of Paul's use of the word sin?
 

Nathon Detroit

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Sozo said:
In order for YOU to be a contradiction to God, you have to have a life that is contrary to God.
No, not necessarily, it isn't that your life is contrary to God, instead it's just that you did something that God would not want you to do. (pretty simple) :)

I'll say it your way...

In order to do anything that God does not want us to do, you have to have a life that is apart from God.
Nope. That's a strawman or a false dilemma or whatever you want to call it. Christians are in God's good graces, nothing can change that. But we can do things that are against God's will. We call those things sins.

Romans 4:7 “Blessed are those whose lawless deeds are forgiven, And whose sins are covered; Blessed is the man to whom the LORD shall not impute sin.

Is your life in the flesh, or in the Spirit? Is it in your body that is dead to God, or is it in your Spirit that is alive to God?
I am alive to God, which is the very reason why my sins are covered. (Rom 4:7)

You may think that this is being semantical, or mystical, or impractical (I don't know), but I do know that Paul spent a great deal of his time trying to get this point across in all of his letters, because it was important to him (and therefore important to God), that a believer understand who he is in Christ. Who is the real (I'll use your TOL ID) Knight?
Spare me the dramatics. :rolleyes: (I already have one 14 year old daughter to deal with)

You fail to acknowledge any other use of the word sin than what you want to use. Because of that you will always be swimming upstream and flying in the face clear Bible verses. Paul didn't make that same mistake. Paul used sin as a noun and a verb. :up:

Are you a sinner or are you a child of God? Are you unrighteous or are you righteous? Are you in the flesh or in the Spirit? Are you under the Law or under grace?
I am a child of God, righteous, in the Spirit and not under the law which of course is why my sins are covered. (Romans 4:7)

Your identity is in Christ. He is your life. You are holy, righteous, blameless, complete, free from wrath, free from sin, free from the Law, and free from death.
:up:

Jesus said that everyone who lives and believes in Me shall never die.

Is your body going to die? Of course it is. Was Jesus lying? Of course not. Jesus knew then as Paul explains later that you are not that which dies. The body dies, and in fact is already dead because of sin. The spirit is alive because you are righteous in Him. You are not contrary to God. YOU do not do anything that God does not will. Your flesh does, but that is not who YOU are. YOU are a Christian, a child of God, born of the Spirit.

For YOU to sin, YOU would have to be in the flesh, under the Law, dead to God.
Great set-up..... faulty conclusion.

Christians are not under the law, we are dead to sin, we are under grace etc. But the word sin has a broader meaning which you refuse to acknowledge. Christians can still do what God does not desire that they do and that is referred to as sin by the Apostle Paul. I feel very comfortable using the word sin in the exact same manner as the apostle Paul did.

Sozo said:
I'm confused by your last comment. We are to tell the lost that they need to be perfect. That is a major point in presenting the gospel.
You are confused I said.... "we need not be perfect" You don't tell the lost that Christians need to be perfect do you? Instead, we are identified with Christ and therefore our sins are covered, that's the liberty we have in Christ.
 

Sozo

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Knight said:
The Christian can sin, but thankfully that sin has already been paid for by the blood of Christ which of course is the liberty that God has so graciously given us.

Most importantly.... God inspired the apostle Paul to affirm that a Christian can indeed sin. This of course is the death-nail to those that argue that a Christian cannot sin.

1 Corinthians 8:6 yet for us there is one God, the Father, of whom are all things, and we for Him; and one Lord Jesus Christ, through whom are all things, and through whom we live. 7 However, there is not in everyone that knowledge; for some, with consciousness of the idol, until now eat it as a thing offered to an idol; and their conscience, being weak, is defiled. 8 But food does not commend us to God; for neither if we eat are we the better, nor if we do not eat are we the worse. 9 But beware lest somehow this liberty of yours become a stumbling block to those who are weak. 10 For if anyone sees you who have knowledge eating in an idol’s temple, will not the conscience of him who is weak be emboldened to eat those things offered to idols? 11 And because of your knowledge shall the weak brother perish, for whom Christ died? 12 But when you thus sin against the brethren, and wound their weak conscience, you sin against Christ.


I am at a slight disadvantage, having to defend my position with only a portion of the New Testament at my disposal, with your specific dispensational view. Normally I could offer a great many more verses that teach that Christians cannot sin.

However, the above verse is the only one in the bible that creates a challenge, and always has. The other verses, are not a problem, and if necessary, I will address them too.

At this point, I do not have a sufficient response to the above verse, and I have no intention on attempting to make it say something it does not.

I believe that I can only present my case as to why Christians cannot sin, and leave it to the reader to make their own assessment based on the apparent contradictions.

I agree with you that the word sin can be both a verb and a noun (which is why, that in every use of the term, it is not speaking of something "volitional" :rolleyes: ).

In any case, I will add more tomorrow. It's been a long day. :yawn:
 

Sozo

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Knight said:
No, not necessarily, it isn't that your life is contrary to God, instead it's just that you did something that God would not want you to do. (pretty simple) :)
What do you call the list of things that "God would not want you to do", and where can I find it?

But we can do things that are against God's will. We call those things sins.

Romans 4:7 “Blessed are those whose lawless deeds are forgiven, And whose sins are covered; Blessed is the man to whom the LORD shall not impute sin.”
The "Lawless deeds" issue was accomplished on the cross. David was speaking of himself, and God's grace. God did much more than "cover" sin, He took it away "Once and for all". Sin is not imputed, because God removed the very thing that defines that we have sin... "The Law".

You seem to be now adding "God's will" to replace the Law to define sin, but that sin is no longer placed to our account because of our identity with Christ. Why not just keep the Law in place?

I am alive to God, which is the very reason why my sins are covered.
You mean taken away, right? The sacrifice of Jesus was not an atonement, but a propitiation. An atonement was never permenant. (The letter to the Hebrews would come in handy here).

You fail to acknowledge any other use of the word sin than what you want to use.
I know that the word sin, can simly mean an offense, which may be it's use in 1 Cor 8:12.

I realize that Paul gives us a great deal of instruction on how God wants us to behave towards one another. How we should treat others in the Body, and how to treat those outside the church. The letters of Paul are filled with such. We can "offend" others, and God does not want us to do those things. We always do those things, that under the Law were defined as sin. If they are not held to our account, then they why confuse believers into believing that they still sin, in which many still refer to themselves as sinners, and they think they must confess the sin, and that continuing in sin can lead to apostasy?

You are confused I said.... "we need not be perfect" You don't tell the lost that Christians need to be perfect do you? Instead, we are identified with Christ and therefore our sins are covered, that's the liberty we have in Christ.
We do need to be perfect. And we need to tell the lost that they need to be perfect. It is the same message that God told Abraham, and the same thing that Jesus told the Jews. Paul said that the gospel is the power of God unto salvation, because in it the righteousness of God is revealed (God is perfect, and we are not. We need to be perfect). The only way that is possible is to receive His life. In Him we have been made holy, righteous, complete, perfect.

Man must feel completely helpless, so that he will come to Christ by faith realizing that he can never be perfect on his own.
 
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