One on one: Mr. 5020 & Knight

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Nathon Detroit

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This "one on one" thread between Mr. 5020 and myself does not have a specific topic per se. Instead, their are several topics that I would like to discuss with Mr. 5020 and there may be several things Mr. 5020 wants to ask me in return.

My first question to Mr. 5020 is . . .

Why do you dislike Bob Enyart so much? At one point, you even stated you put him on ignore. Now I am not here to make you like Bob, yet I am intrigued as to why you have such strong feelings about him. It seems to me Bob's participation at TOL has been civil and friendly. So what did Bob do to you to make you dislike him so?

This interests me because Bob is my pastor and my friend. His views and opinions are very similar to mine.

Do you dislike Bob because of something Bob teaches?

Is it his approach?

Or did he butt in front of you in the 10 items or less lane at the grocery store? :)

Thank you in advance for your time!
 

Mr. 5020

New member
Wow, I had no idea this would be discussed. But it's probably the easiest of all the questions you will ask me. I seem to have very few problems with anything I've heard Bob say in the dozen or so shows I've listened to. I do have a problem with his approach. Even when he makes points that I agree with, I'm completely turned off by his show of arrogance. I can't imagine how much it pushes away those who don't agree with him.

No, no, no...thank you.
 

Nathon Detroit

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Mr. 5020 said:
Wow, I had no idea this would be discussed. But it's probably the easiest of all the questions you will ask me. I seem to have very few problems with anything I've heard Bob say in the dozen or so shows I've listened to. I do have a problem with his approach. Even when he makes points that I agree with, I'm completely turned off by his show of arrogance. I can't imagine how much it pushes away those who don't agree with him.
Well all I can say in response is . . . my wife and I disagreed with Bob but our entire family came to the Lord through his show (as did my sister, her husband, their family, my dad etc.).

So, you dislike Bob's approach, fair enough! If John the Baptist had a radio show I am guessing you would dislike his approach as well :D which of course is your choice. I wont pursue this issue any further.

You have made some inquisitive comments in regard to open theism. I would like to discuss this topic with you therefore my next question is:

Do you believe that we have a true freewill? Do you believe we can make our own choices without those choices being predetermined?
 

Mr. 5020

New member
Knight said:
Do you believe that we have a true freewill? Do you believe we can make our own choices without those choices being predetermined?
I do believe we have a true free will. I do believe that we make our own choices, but I believe God knows what the choices will be.


On a side note, I praise God for Bob and his ministry, and you will notice that in the last 6 months or so, I've chilled out quite a bit towards him.
 

Nathon Detroit

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LIFETIME MEMBER
Mr. 5020 said:
I do believe we have a true free will. I do believe that we make our own choices, but I believe God knows what the choices will be.
OK, how far in advance does God know the choices that we will make?
 

Nathon Detroit

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LIFETIME MEMBER
Mr. 5020 said:
God didn't attain this knowledge. God is omnipresent - He exists in past, present and future.
God has the knowledge. And the knowledge is of something that hasn't happened yet therefore God had to attain this knowledge in some fashion.

Did He "peek" into the future and "see" all of history therefore attaining the knowledge?

Or did He think the future into existence therefore ordaining all the future history?

Or is there a third option? And if there is, can you conceptualize it?
 

Mr. 5020

New member
Knight said:
God has the knowledge. And the knowledge is of something that hasn't happened yet therefore God had to attain this knowledge in some fashion.

Did He "peek" into the future and "see" all of history therefore attaining the knowledge?

Or did He think the future into existence therefore ordaining all the future history?

Or is there a third option? And if there is, can you conceptualize it?
Who has the future not happened to? It has not happened to us, but does that mean it has not happened? In Revelation, John saw the future right before his very eyes. How could Jesus Christ have shown John all of that without Jesus Himself knowing what would happen?

Like I said before, God exists in the past, present, and future. He does not need to peek into the future, for He is already there.
 

Nathon Detroit

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LIFETIME MEMBER
Mr. 5020 said:
Who has the future not happened to? It has not happened to us, but does that mean it has not happened? In Revelation, John saw the future right before his very eyes. How could Jesus Christ have shown John all of that without Jesus Himself knowing what would happen?
Is "seeing" the future the only possible way of predicting the future?

Which accurate prediction of the future is more impressive?

- The man who watches the first 2/3rds of a movie and is able to deduce an accurate prediction of the end of the movie based on his present knowledge.

- The man who has already seen the movie and tells you how the movie ends.

Like I said before, God exists in the past, present, and future. He does not need to peek into the future, for He is already there.
Are all points of history continually happening to God for an eternity past, present and future?

Or, is the past in the past for God?
 

Mr. 5020

New member
Knight said:
Is "seeing" the future the only possible way of predicting the future?
No, but seeing the future is the only way to know the future.
Knight said:
Which accurate prediction of the future is more impressive?

- The man who watches the first 2/3rds of a movie and is able to deduce an accurate prediction of the end of the movie based on his present knowledge.

- The man who has already seen the movie and tells you how the movie ends.
The first one is impressive, though it is a guess. The second one, while not mind-boggling, is more assured, though.
Knight said:
Are all points of history continually happening to God for an eternity past, present and future?

Or, is the past in the past for God?
God knows that yesterday is what I consider the past, though He is still there. God knows that I consider tomorrow the future, yet He was, He is, and He is to come - He's already there.
 

Nathon Detroit

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Mr. 5020 said:
No, but seeing the future is the only way to know the future.
That simply isn't true.

God could accurately predict the future in the following alternate two ways:

1. God could have ordained all of the future and created beings to act out His script.

2. God could accurately predict the future by brining events to pass, i.e., making things happen. He is after all .... God! :)

Would you agree that the above two statements are both examples of other ways God could predict the future?

The first one is impressive, though it is a guess. The second one, while not mind-boggling, is more assured, though.
I don't think its impressive in the least for a person to predict the ending of a movie they have already seen. In fact, I hate when people spoil the endings of movies, its selfish and rude. And it most certainly doesn't demonstrate that they have used any intelligence in predicting anything. The only reason they have any knowledge of the ending is because they already saw it! Big deal!

God knows that yesterday is what I consider the past, though He is still there. God knows that I consider tomorrow the future, yet He was, He is, and He is to come - He's already there.
When God said . . .

So when Jesus had received the sour wine, He said, “It is finished!” And bowing His head, He gave up His spirit. - John 19:30

Was this some type of figure of speech or was it really finished?

Is Christ still suffering on the cross?
 

Mr. 5020

New member
Knight said:
That simply isn't true.

God could accurately predict the future in the following alternate two ways:

1. God could have ordained all of the future and created beings to act out His script.
Neither one of us believe this one, so we'll leave it alone.

Knight said:
2. God could accurately predict the future by brining events to pass, i.e., making things happen. He is after all .... God! :)
By overriding free will?

Knight said:
Would you agree that the above two statements are both examples of other ways God could predict the future?
Indeed, but they both have to do with the removal of free will.

Knight said:
I don't think its impressive in the least for a person to predict the ending of a movie they have already seen. In fact, I hate when people spoil the endings of movies, its selfish and rude. And it most certainly doesn't demonstrate that they have used any intelligence in predicting anything. The only reason they have any knowledge of the ending is because they already saw it! Big deal!
I agree, like I said in my previous post.

Knight said:
When God said . . .

So when Jesus had received the sour wine, He said, “It is finished!” And bowing His head, He gave up His spirit. - John 19:30

Was this some type of figure of speech or was it really finished?

Is Christ still suffering on the cross?
No, His job was finished.

Can I ask a question now? Is God capable of knowing the future, if He wanted to?
 

Nathon Detroit

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Mr. 5020 said:
Neither one of us believe this one, so we'll leave it alone.
I realize that, but it is another possible option.

By overriding free will?
I wouldn't call it overriding at all.

It's more like persuading the will to conform to God's will.

Did God override Jonah's freewill? Heck no! Jonah fought so hard to avoid conforming to God's will he spent three days in a fish! Eventually Jonah reluctantly did what God wanted him to do.

God works with our will to orchestrate His desire for creation at a macro level not a micro level.

Indeed, but they both have to do with the removal of free will.
Nope . . . only one of them does.

No, His job was finished.
And there you have it!

Mr. 5020 earlier I asked you . . .
Are all points of history continually happening to God for an eternity past, present and future?

Or, is the past in the past for God?
To which you responded . . .
God knows that yesterday is what I consider the past, though He is still there. God knows that I consider tomorrow the future, yet He was, He is, and He is to come - He's already there.
Yet now you are contradicting that answer by stating that Jesus is no longer suffering on the cross.

How can God be still in the past yet be finished suffering on the cross?

Can I ask a question now? Is God capable of knowing the future, if He wanted to?
Yes. As I stated earlier, God could have created a reality in where the entire future was scripted and humans were nothing more than complicated robots accurately fulfilling that script.

Yet God didn't want robots!

He wanted beings that could think and feel on their own without coercion.

Now there is something that God cannot do . . .
God cannot simultaneously know the future in every detail AND give His creation the ability to chart their own future by making their own decisions. God knows that exhaustively knowing the future would remove our ability to have a true freewill.

Therefore . . .

God, wanting to create truly capable freewill agents had only one option . . . delegate some of His power in the form of freewill to His creation knowing full well that some of these agents would use their freewill in opposition to His will.
 

Mr. 5020

New member
Knight said:
How can God be still in the past yet be finished suffering on the cross?
I'll come back to this one.*

Knight said:
Yes. As I stated earlier, God could have created a reality in where the entire future was scripted and humans were nothing more than complicated robots accurately fulfilling that script.

Yet God didn't want robots!

He wanted beings that could think and feel on their own without coercion.

Now there is something that God cannot do . . .
God cannot simultaneously know the future in every detail AND give His creation the ability to chart their own future by making their own decisions. God knows that exhaustively knowing the future would remove our ability to have a true freewill.

Therefore . . .

God, wanting to create truly capable freewill agents had only one option . . . delegate some of His power in the form of freewill to His creation knowing full well that some of these agents would use their freewill in opposition to His will.
I'm not sure you answered my question. If right now, God decided He wanted to peek into the future, could He do it?


*I am in the process of moving into my own apartment, so my Net access is limited for the next few days.
 

Nathon Detroit

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LIFETIME MEMBER
Mr. 5020 said:
I'll come back to this one.*
Great!

I'm not sure you answered my question. If right now, God decided He wanted to peek into the future, could He do it?
No.

There is no future to "peek" into. The future doesn't exist! The past doesn't exist. The only thing that actually exists is the ever passing moment (which by the way is also the name of a excellent CD by MxPx).

You seem to think the future exists, can you tell me where it exists? Is it simply in God's mind? Or elsewhere?

*I am in the process of moving into my own apartment, so my Net access is limited for the next few days.
:up:
 

Nathon Detroit

LIFETIME MEMBER
LIFETIME MEMBER
LOL . . . The Edge bad repped me for this thread with the note...."the future is known by God. Otherwise we wouldn't have Revelation to John" :chuckle:

I love you Edge your TOL's biggest knob. :up:
 
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