toldailytopic: Once a person is saved can they reject that salvation should they chan

[glorydaz]

He was only called the son of perdition when he died and went to hell. He was not called this when he was chosen initially. He was called an apostle in the same list as the other apostles. Jesus did not chose a devil. The verb tense shows that he became a betrayer, then was filled with Satan, THEN died and became a son of perdition. He was not predestined in eternity past to be this, was not predicted in the OT to fill the role unconditionally/deterministically, was not called these things at birth nor after He was called by God himself to be an apostle. Near the beginning of the ministry, he had a downward spiral until he cooked his goose.

This is the biblical chronology, but you have a preconception to retain.

Regardless, OSAS or not does not rise or fall on Judas (who does illustrate apostasy/falling away), but on all biblical evidence vs proof texts out of context.

You have not dealt with the book length topic I linked that looks at all these Scriptures. Don't assume your tradition is truth or free from bias.

I only know what I read in the Word. Just because you have some "tradition" doesn't mean I do. No, Jesus knew Judas never believed and that he would betray Him. Why do you fight so hard against what is clearly written? The words Jesus spoke were recorded just as He spoke them, and He said Judas was the son of perdition before Judas ever betrayed Him.

 

[godrulz]

Ah, you see this life as probation. That explains a lot. What do you think Paul is talking about in this verse?

Romans 6:8
Now if we be dead with Christ, we believe that we shall also live with him:



So I ask you, what are you waiting for?

John 5:24
Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life.

I Jn. 5:11-13 I believe eternal life is now/present for the believer. Passages about believers (those who believe and continue to believe unto death) do not negate the ones about apostasy (falling from truth), just as monotheistic verses should not be pitted against plurality/trinitarian verses. The Bible teaches security of BELIEVERS and the possibility of falling away. OSAS cannot deal with these two motifs, but conditional eternal security, biblical assurance, biblical perseverance of the saints can.

If you want OSAS, you logically should also embrace universalism.

Life is not probation for the believer, per se, but it is probationary for the human race in the sense that our choice for or against God happens in this life, not post-mortem like some teach.

Identification with Christ must be a reality at death. If contingency changes (what is true at time x may not be true at time y since we are not in a deterministic Matrix), then reality may change. Promises/privileges about believers apply to believers, but would no longer apply to someone who dies in a state of apostasy (hence the stern warnings and call to return to one's first love lest we die in a state identical to that of unbelievers or our pre-Christ state).

If we can change our mind and will, you do not have a case. If we are robots or hyper-omnicausality is true (it is not), then you have a case.

 

[godrulz]

What Scripture says you cannot? There are verses that are stern warnings about the possibility of falling away in addition to ones about the security of the believer with conditional aspects. The only way to embrace all relevant verses is conditional vs unconditional eternal security.

Given free will, the concept is self-evident.

Only a malicious person could neg rep me for this and tell me to go to hell (my view is a legitimate theological view held by hundreds of millions of true Christians, including great scholars and godly believers like John Wesley). I don't see Nick M. telling all non-Calvinist giants of the faith throughout church history to go to hell for defending my view on POTS.:hammer: Shame on him.

 

[Delmar]

Wow, even most Open Theists do not go this far.

I do not see how you can support OSAS in a probationary period full of flesh and temptation, yet deny OSAS in a perfect, heavenly state?!

Gregory Boyd feels we will be more compatibilistic than libertarian in heaven (I am not sure I agree).

If we are not OSAS in perfect heaven, why on earth defend it for this imperfect time before heaven?!

It seems to me you would be more consistent if you deny it before and after heaven.

I don't deny free will ever. I believe that once a person accepts the gift of salvation, the opportunity to be with the Lord in Heaven will not be rescinded by God. In that sense the person has been and is saved.

 

[Doormat]

Judas was a natural branch broken off the Olive Tree for unbelief.

He was born onto the Olive Tree, and if he had died before he was broken off for unbelief, he would have been saved.

See Romans 11:16-24 and Romans 7:9.

That should be your argument, godrulz.

 

[godrulz]

I don't deny free will ever. I believe that once a person accepts the gift of salvation, the opportunity to be with the Lord in Heaven will not be rescinded by God. In that sense the person has been and is saved.

It sounds like we should get everyone to make a one day commitment to Christ with the false assurance that they can go back to their godless ways and reject Christ, yet still be saved. This does not sound biblical nor the full gospel/doctrinal truth.

So, you end up like johnw with Christian Atheists, Christian Satanists, Christian Muslims, etc. all going to heaven because they once parroted a prayer that stuck even though there is no reality at death and no difference between this kind of believer and an unbeliever.

I think an unbelieving believer is oxymoronic/mythical.

 

[godrulz]

Judas was a natural branch broken off the Olive Tree for unbelief.

He was born onto the Olive Tree, and if he had died before he was broken off for unbelief, he would have been saved.

See Romans 11:16-24 and Romans 7:9.

That should be your argument, godrulz.

No one is born a believer. A Jew is not saved by ethnicity, but by grace/relationship with God.

The cut off stuff in Rom. 9-11 is corporate, not individual, per se.

 

[Doormat]

No one is born a believer. A Jew is not saved by ethnicity, but by grace/relationship with God.

Jews were/are born into that relationship with God. See the history of Israel.

The cut off stuff in Rom. 9-11 is corporate, not individual, per se.

No. You just need to argue that to support your false doctrine.

Individual branches were broken off for individual unbelief. See Romans 11:16-24.

 

[glorydaz]

I Jn. 5:11-13 I believe eternal life is now/present for the believer. Passages about believers (those who believe and continue to believe unto death) do not negate the ones about apostasy (falling from truth), just as monotheistic verses should not be pitted against plurality/trinitarian verses. The Bible teaches security of BELIEVERS and the possibility of falling away. OSAS cannot deal with these two motifs, but conditional eternal security, biblical assurance, biblical perseverance of the saints can.

If you want OSAS, you logically should also embrace universalism.

Not at all. Those who are born of God and have passed from death unto life cannot be unborn or lose their salvation. That has nothing to do with universal salvation since not all men access the grace of God by FAITH.

Life is not probation for the believer, per se, but it is probationary for the human race in the sense that our choice for or against God happens in this life, not post-mortem like some teach.

Identification with Christ must be a reality at death. If contingency changes (what is true at time x may not be true at time y since we are not in a deterministic Matrix), then reality may change. Promises/privileges about believers apply to believers, but would no longer apply to someone who dies in a state of apostasy (hence the stern warnings and call to return to one's first love lest we die in a state identical to that of unbelievers or our pre-Christ state).

If we can change our mind and will, you do not have a case. If we are robots or hyper-omnicausality is true (it is not), then you have a case.

You judge with the eyes of men...not being able to see into the heart. Those who are born of God are NEW CREATIONS....to use the old analogy of robots is error, for it totally denies we are HIS WORKMANSHIP and not our own. Following for a time does NOT mean a man is born of God created IN CHRIST JESUS.

Just as there were disciples who followed Jesus for a time and then found the road too hard so turned back, there are those who hear the Gospel but are not fully persuaded by it. They refuse to enter into the rest because they simply are not persuaded there are no strings attached to the gift God has offered to all men. "If they had been of us, they would NO DOUBT have continued.....they went out, that they might be made manifest that they were NOT ALL OF US."

1 John 2:19
They went out from us, but they were not of us; for if they had been of us, they would no doubt have continued with us: but they went out, that they might be made manifest that they were not all of us.


I'll ask again. Do you think YOU could ever turn back and lose YOUR salvation? I see many who claim others can, but I don't see any who acknowledge it could ever happen to them (personally). What if you suddenly died while you were engaged in some particular disobedience?

 

[glorydaz]

No one is born a believer. A Jew is not saved by ethnicity, but by grace/relationship with God.

The cut off stuff in Rom. 9-11 is corporate, not individual, per se.

Exactly. :thumb:

 

[Delmar]

It sounds like we should get everyone to make a one day commitment to Christ with the false assurance that they can go back to their godless ways and reject Christ, yet still be saved. This does not sound biblical nor the full gospel/doctrinal truth.

Nor does it bear any resemblance to what I actually believe.

So, you end up like johnw with Christian Atheists, Christian Satanists, Christian Muslims, etc. all going to heaven because they once parroted a prayer that stuck even though there is no reality at death and no difference between this kind of believer and an unbeliever.

I think an unbelieving believer is oxymoronic/mythical.

This would be my guess as well, though I am not absolutely certain.

 

[glorydaz]

It sounds like we should get everyone to make a one day commitment to Christ with the false assurance that they can go back to their godless ways and reject Christ, yet still be saved. This does not sound biblical nor the full gospel/doctrinal truth.

So, you end up like johnw with Christian Atheists, Christian Satanists, Christian Muslims, etc. all going to heaven because they once parroted a prayer that stuck even though there is no reality at death and no difference between this kind of believer and an unbeliever.

I think an unbelieving believer is oxymoronic/mythical.

There you go...judging by what you see around you.

1 John 3:2
Beloved, now are we the sons of God, and it doth not yet appear what we shall be: but we know that, when he shall appear, we shall be like him; for we shall see him as he is.


No one who is born of the Spirit has ANY desire to go back to their "godless ways". "Create in me a clean heart..." is something that is done to us by the Holy Spirit. It is not just a verse to be tossed aside because we think we see "evidence" to the contrary.

2 Cor. 3:17-18
Now the Lord is that Spirit: and where the Spirit of the Lord is, there is liberty. But we all, with open face beholding as in a glass the glory of the Lord, are changed into the same image from glory to glory, even as by the Spirit of the Lord.


This preaching a gospel of fear and doubt is NOT from the Lord but from satan himself. It attacks the PEACE we are to have in Christ Jesus, and it seeks to remove our joy and assurance in Him. I find it an abomination to bring such false charges against the brethren who are rooted, grounded and established in the Faith.


Col. 2:6-10
As ye have therefore received Christ Jesus the Lord, so walk ye in him: Rooted and built up in him, and stablished in the faith, as ye have been taught, abounding therein with thanksgiving. Beware lest any man spoil you through philosophy and vain deceit, after the tradition of men, after the rudiments of the world, and not after Christ. For in him dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily. And ye are complete in him, which is the head of all principality and power:


Better to examine yourselves whether you are IN the Faith since you have no assurance of your own salvation....yes, you should worry. Where there is worry and doubt there is NO REST. That is a sad state for any man to be in.

 

[Lighthouse]

It is, exactly. And those same claims made against those who have been crucified with Christ, quickened and raised with Him brings slander against the very salvation provided by Christ's death and resurrection. How does such a claim show forth the riches of God's grace and His kindness toward us? It doesn't, it makes a sham of God's grace instead. :nono:

Ephesians 2:5-7
Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved; ) And hath raised us up together, and made us sit together in heavenly places in Christ Jesus: That in the ages to come he might shew the exceeding riches of his grace in his kindness toward us through Christ Jesus.

Put simply, it advocates the falsehood that God is NOT ABLE to keep us unto the day of redemption. Whoever is not fully persuaded of that truth does not have the faith needed for justification before God. Lack of assurance of one's salvation is a sure sign one needs to examine himself whether he even be IN THE FAITH.

It is as if they are trampling his blood underfoot and putting him to an open shame.

 

[Wile E. Coyote]

Only a malicious person could neg rep me for this and tell me to go to hell (my view is a legitimate theological view held by hundreds of millions of true Christians, including great scholars and godly believers like John Wesley). I don't see Nick M. telling all non-Calvinist giants of the faith throughout church history to go to hell for defending my view on POTS. Shame on him.

Nick M is a Christ hating swine! His applied theology denies salvation by grace. He once said that anyone who voted for Obama is going to hell. This is a denial that salvation is by grace.

Nick's theology denies Paul's principle which he stated, "Just as you received Christ so also walk in Him." Yet Nick M makes walking in Christ about politics which was not involved in receiving Christ.

 

[Wile E. Coyote]

It is as if they are trampling his blood underfoot and putting him to an open shame.

Look who's talking. You're another Christ hating swine! You stand with the scribes and pharisees AGAINST Jesus you self righteous pig!

 

[Lighthouse]

Nick M is a Christ hating swine! His applied theology denies salvation by grace. He once said that anyone who voted for Obama is going to hell. This is a denial that salvation is by grace.

Nick's theology denies Paul's principle which he stated, "Just as you received Christ so also walk in Him." Yet Nick M makes walking in Christ about politics which was not involved in receiving Christ.

I'm still waiting for you to provide a link to Nick posting that...

Look who's talking. You're another Christ hating swine! You stand with the scribes and pharisees AGAINST Jesus you self righteous pig!

Lying sack of scum.

If you had any honor you'd at least point to something that could be misconstrued to make such a claim, but you're too disingenuous to even do that.

 

[glorydaz]

It is as if they are trampling his blood underfoot and putting him to an open shame.

Yes, and that's the very reason salvation is by grace through faith...so that no man can boast. I can just hear them when they stand before the judgment seat, "I did everything I was supposed to do....I kept myself from sin....I told everyone else they needed to work FOR their salvation or they would lose it." :nono:

Instead of being redeemed by the blood, some continue to think they have to add their own sweat and tears. There is only ONE SAVIOUR and He didn't ask for our help.

Ephesians 1:7
In whom we have redemption through his blood, the forgiveness of sins, according to the riches of his grace;



We can't even be Co-Saviours with Christ....He alone gets ALL THE GLORY.

Isaiah 43:11
I, even I, am the LORD; and beside me there is no saviour.

 

[Grosnick Marowbe]

Yes, and that's the very reason salvation is by grace through faith...so that no man can boast. I can just hear them when they stand before the judgment seat, "I did everything I was supposed to do....I kept myself from sin....I told everyone else they needed to work FOR their salvation or they would lose it." :nono:

Instead of being redeemed by the blood, some continue to think they have to add their own sweat and tears. There is only ONE SAVIOUR and He didn't ask for our help.

Ephesians 1:7
In whom we have redemption through his blood, the forgiveness of sins, according to the riches of his grace;



We can't even be Co-Saviours with Christ....He alone gets ALL THE GLORY.

Isaiah 43:11
I, even I, am the LORD; and beside me there is no saviour.

Good post Glory

 

[Grosnick Marowbe]

Hate to burst your bubble Delmar but NOBODY is going to heaven.

?

 

[Grosnick Marowbe]

Not in heaven, but can and does happen in this life (some shipwreck their faith and act stupidly and selfishly in this probation period before death seals destiny).:box:

What probation period?? How can one, shipwreck their faith? You have some strange ideas,
my rather strange friend!