toldailytopic: Eternal torment, Annihilationism or Universalism, which do you believe

[Lighthouse]

And do not fear those who kill the body but cannot kill the soul. But rather fear Him who is able to destroy both soul and body in hell. (Matthew 10:28)​

Seeing as Hell is not the Lake of Fire we know then that this does not mean annihilated. Care to try again?

 

[Christian Liberty]

Seeing as Hell is not the Lake of Fire we know then that this does not mean annihilated. Care to try again?

I've honestly never considered this particular argument. Also, it says he's ABLE to destroy both body and soul, so even if it did mean that he COULD absolutely annihilate the soul, it doesn't mean he actually does. And other scriptures make clear that he doesn't.

That said, annihilationism isn't quite as heretical as universalism. I'd consider universalism to be a damnable heresy in and of itself. I don't know that I'd say that about annihilationism.

 

[jamie]

Seeing as Hell is not the Lake of Fire we know then that this does not mean annihilated. Care to try again?

Then Death and Hades were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death. And anyone not found written in the Book of Life was cast into the lake of fire. (Revelation 20:14-15)

The lake of fire is symbolism for eradication. The word for hell in Matthew 10:28 is ghenna, which was the Valley of Hinnom where trash was burned.

 

[Lighthouse]

I've honestly never considered this particular argument. Also, it says he's ABLE to destroy both body and soul, so even if it did mean that he COULD absolutely annihilate the soul, it doesn't mean he actually does. And other scriptures make clear that he doesn't.

That said, annihilationism isn't quite as heretical as universalism. I'd consider universalism to be a damnable heresy in and of itself. I don't know that I'd say that about annihilationism.

I considered annihilation a few years ago, but I prayed about it and was assured souls were not made to be destroyed, because God initially created with the intention of every soul living forever on the Earth, in the Garden.

 

[Christian Liberty]

I considered annihilation a few years ago, but I prayed about it and was assured souls were not made to be destroyed, because God initially created with the intention of every soul living forever on the Earth, in the Garden.

I briefly considered that. I briefly considered baptismal regeneration (Basically, the belief that baptism was an essential component of salvation) as well. Neither is Biblical.

 

[Lighthouse]

The lake of fire is symbolism for eradication.

You pulled that out of your backside.

 

[Christian Liberty]

You pulled that out of your backside.

Ultimately, if annihilationism were true, Christ's death on the cross wouldn't make sense.

That said, considering you believe in unlimited atonement, logically you probably should believe in annihilation, because to punish someone forever for sins that were already paid for is unjust. I know you said its a "Choice" but unless you actually think people want to spend eternity in the Lake of Fire (Or you have a specific Biblical text that would refute my logic... I'll bow to the Bible over my own mind) I don't think your position makes much sense as it now stands.

 

[Lighthouse]

I briefly considered that. I briefly considered baptismal regeneration (Basically, the belief that baptism was an essential component of salvation) as well. Neither is Biblical.

Agreed.

 

[Timotheos]

I know what you believe. I'm pointing out that the word used for "punishment" is also used for "torment." I am arguing that the translation is wrong, and that the torment is everlasting.

And I am disagreeing with your definition of death, as all throughout the Bible spiritual death is defined as separation from God, not a blinking out of existence. It is an eternal separation from God, which is what causes the torment.

If you can show me any passages where spiritual death is defined as annihilation or that souls can be destroyed, I will concede.

Death means death. The Bible has not redefined death as separation. If you show me the passage that says "death doesn't really mean death, but means separation", then I will concede. I don't care if you believe that God is going to torture people forever. I know what the Bible says.

 

[Timotheos]

Of course not, but I have noticed that you also don't take God's Word for it, either:

• Matthew 3:12
• Matthew 18:8
• Matthew 25:46
• Mark 9:43
• Luke 3:17
• Luke 16:19-31
• 2 Thessalonians 1:9
• Jude 7
• Jude 12, 13
• Revelation 14:11
• Revelation 17
• Revelation 19:3
• Revelation 20:10

Read the passages you post to see if they agree with what you say.
Jude 7
In a similar way, Sodom and Gomorrah and the surrounding towns gave themselves up to sexual immorality and perversion. They serve as an example of those who suffer the punishment of eternal fire.
What happened to S&G? They were destroyed. They are an example. What will happen to those who suffer the punishment of eternal fire? They will be destroyed. Come on. Read what you think agrees with you to make sure it does agree with you.
2 Thess 1:9??? You think this verse agrees with you??? Read it! It says "They will be punished with everlasting DESTRUCTION..." If this passage agreed with you it would say they will be tortured forever, not destroyed.
Matthew 3:12 specifically says that the chaff will be BURNT UP, not tortured. This means it will be consumed by fire

You really should not post passages that agree with me in an attempt to refute me.

I'm not going any further in this with you until you read and understand the passages you post.

 

[Timotheos]

Ultimately, if annihilationism were true, Christ's death on the cross wouldn't make sense.

That said, considering you believe in unlimited atonement, logically you probably should believe in annihilation, because to punish someone forever for sins that were already paid for is unjust. I know you said its a "Choice" but unless you actually think people want to spend eternity in the Lake of Fire (Or you have a specific Biblical text that would refute my logic... I'll bow to the Bible over my own mind) I don't think your position makes much sense as it now stands.

The wages of sin is death. Christ paid those wages on the cross with His death. If the penalty for sin is eternal torment in Hell as some people claim, then Christ didn't pay that debt, since He wasn't tormented in Hell forever. He died on the cross paying the debt of death that we owe. If Eternal Tormentism were true, then Christ's death on the cross wouldn't make sense. Since Annihilationism IS true, Christ's death on the cross makes perfect sense. He paid the price we owe.

 

[Lighthouse]

Ultimately, if annihilationism were true, Christ's death on the cross wouldn't make sense.

I'm not sure I understand that.

That said, considering you believe in unlimited atonement, logically you probably should believe in annihilation, because to punish someone forever for sins that were already paid for is unjust. I know you said its a "Choice" but unless you actually think people want to spend eternity in the Lake of Fire (Or you have a specific Biblical text that would refute my logic... I'll bow to the Bible over my own mind) I don't think your position makes much sense as it now stands.

As I've said before, I do not believe it to be a punishment. They go because they choose to, and it torments their souls when they realize just what they've rejected. It's not a choice to spend eternity in the Lake of Fire, it's the choice to reject God.

 

[Timotheos]

I'm not sure I understand that.


As I've said before, I do not believe it to be a punishment. They go because they choose to, and it torments their souls when they realize just what they've rejected. It's not a choice to spend eternity in the Lake of Fire, it's the choice to reject God.

According to the Revelation 20:14, the lake of fire is the second death.
I believe the lake of fire is the second death, after the resurrection and judgment. The lake of fire is not eternal conscious torment.

 

[Lighthouse]

Death means death. The Bible has not redefined death as separation. If you show me the passage that says "death doesn't really mean death, but means separation", then I will concede. I don't care if you believe that God is going to torture people forever. I know what the Bible says.

The wages of sin is death, and Christ paid that price for us, so we may receive the gift of God, which is eternal life through Christ Jesus, our Lord.

Jesus was not annihilated; He was, however, forsaken by the Father. It is in this that we know what spiritual death is. Even more so when we look at the verses telling us that we were dead apart from Him, in our trespasses. And the verses telling us we have passed from death into life. Or that our bodies are dead because of sin.

So, clearly, you do not know what the Bible says.

And I never made the argument that God was going to torture anyone.

The wages of sin is death. Christ paid those wages on the cross with His death. If the penalty for sin is eternal torment in Hell as some people claim, then Christ didn't pay that debt, since He wasn't tormented in Hell forever. He died on the cross paying the debt of death that we owe. If Eternal Tormentism were true, then Christ's death on the cross wouldn't make sense. Since Annihilationism IS true, Christ's death on the cross makes perfect sense. He paid the price we owe.

The penalty was paid, eternal torment is not a punishment. Christ paid the debt and some refuse it; more shame to them. Christ also wasn't annihilated.

And if you want to argue His physical death was the punishment then you fail simply by the fact that those who are His still die physical death.

But if you want to go on contradicting yourself for all to see, so be it Johnny Knoxville.

 

[Christian Liberty]

I'm not sure I understand that.

Christ suffered a torturous death (Both the physical death on the cross and, more importantly, the wrath of God poured out on him) in order to pay the penalty for our sins. If Romans 6:23 meant physical death, Christ would have suffered more than he needed to, wouldn't he have?

As I've said before, I do not believe it to be a punishment. They go because they choose to, and it torments their souls when they realize just what they've rejected. It's not a choice to spend eternity in the Lake of Fire, it's the choice to reject God.

How is eternal torment NOT a punishment?

How do you prove Biblically that it is not a punishment? Especially since they are sent there after the Great White Throne JUDGMENT.

 

[Lighthouse]

According to the Revelation 20:14, the lake of fire is the second death.
I believe the lake of fire is the second death, after the resurrection and judgment. The lake of fire is not eternal conscious torment.

Because your definition of spiritual death is highly flawed and utterly unbiblical.

 

[Christian Liberty]

The wages of sin is death. Christ paid those wages on the cross with His death. If the penalty for sin is eternal torment in Hell as some people claim, then Christ didn't pay that debt, since He wasn't tormented in Hell forever. He died on the cross paying the debt of death that we owe. If Eternal Tormentism were true, then Christ's death on the cross wouldn't make sense. Since Annihilationism IS true, Christ's death on the cross makes perfect sense. He paid the price we owe.

An infinite penalty can be paid in a finite period of time by an infinite being.

 

[Lighthouse]

Christ suffered a torturous death (Both the physical death on the cross and, more importantly, the wrath of God poured out on him) in order to pay the penalty for our sins. If Romans 6:23 meant physical death, Christ would have suffered more than he needed to, wouldn't he have?

Ah, you were making the same point I was that Christ was not annihilated, thus annihilation makes no sense. I agree.

Also, if it meant physical death then no one who is Christ's would physically die.

How is eternal torment NOT a punishment?

It is only a punishment if someone is punishing you. Giving you what you want and your being tormented because of your realization of what you've essentially chosen [an eternity without God or any of His attributes: love, joy, peace, etc.] is not God punishing you. If it is a punishment at all it is you punishing yourself for rejecting God and everything He is.

How do you prove Biblically that it is not a punishment? Especially since they are sent there after the Great White Throne JUDGMENT.

They have made their choice. Punishments are not chosen.

 

[Christian Liberty]

Ah, you were making the same point I was that Christ was not annihilated, thus annihilation makes no sense. I agree.

:thumb:

Also, if it meant physical death then no one who is Christ's would physically die.

To be fair, I'm pretty sure Annihilationists teach a SECOND physical death (In the Lake of Fire.)

It is only a punishment if someone is punishing you. Giving you what you want and your being tormented because of your realization of what you've essentially chosen [an eternity without God or any of His attributes: love, joy, peace, etc.] is not God punishing you. If it is a punishment at all it is you punishing yourself for rejecting God and everything He is.

Where do you find this view of Hell Biblically?

Note that I don't necessarily disagree. I know in some sense God's Wrath will be there, as that is what Christ suffered on the cross, but I don't claim to know exactly what Hell will look like.

They have made their choice. Punishments are not chosen.

Its not a choice. Read the end of Revelation 20. As well as all the other passages I've shared with you that show you there is no choice involved in any of this.

 

[Timotheos]

The wages of sin is death, and Christ paid that price for us, so we may receive the gift of God, which is eternal life through Christ Jesus, our Lord.

Jesus was not annihilated; He was, however, forsaken by the Father. It is in this that we know what spiritual death is. Even more so when we look at the verses telling us that we were dead apart from Him, in our trespasses. And the verses telling us we have passed from death into life. Or that our bodies are dead because of sin.

So, clearly, you do not know what the Bible says.

And I nave made the argument that God was going to torture anyone.


The penalty was paid, eternal torment is not a punishment. Christ paid the debt and some refuse it; more shame to them. Christ also wasn't annihilated.

And if you want to argue His physical death was the punishment then you fail simply by the fact that those who are His still die physical death.

But if you want to go on contradicting yourself for all to see, so be it Johnny Knoxville.

Can we have a decent Christian conversation without statements like these?:

But if you want to go on contradicting yourself for all to see, so be it

I haven't contradicted myself.

So, clearly, you do not know what the Bible says.

Yes, I do.

Let's be kind to one another as we discuss this important topic.
Ephesians 4:32 "Be kind and compassionate to one another..." (NIV)

And if you want to argue His physical death was the punishment then you fail simply by the fact that those who are His still die physical death.

You would be correct, IF there was no resurrection. But those who die who are His will be resurrected and then they will have eternal life with Him. Those who die who are not His will be resurrected for judgment and go to the second death, which is death. The second time.

Jesus was not annihilated;

True, but I don't know what else to call real death. The kind of death where a person isn't alive and conscious. Jesus truly died on the cross or else our sins have not been atoned for. Don't get hung up on the word "annihilation". It just means that those who reject Christ will be destroyed, just as the Bible says. It rejects the notion that a person who has been destroyed is also not destroyed but tormented in hell instead.

And I nave made the argument that God was going to torture anyone.

Good! And I don't believe that God is going to send anyone to eternal torment either. It's nice to find common ground with other Christians.